Consciousness

[untermensche]

I have no idea what it is. A mental order.

But for the arm to move I have to do "something".

It doesn't just move on it's own.

And that 'do' is a thought.

A willed thought.

 

[untermensche]

Under what conditions does one move one's arm. Usually its part of something more than the arm moving. I see the tennis ball coming off the racket of my opponent, Is that the moment in which I decide to move my arm, or is after I hit the ball toward the opponent to which he later hits the ball which I see that I decide I'm gong to move my arm in preparation of hitting the opponent's return back, or,. .....

The problem is with cause relating to decision to act. Rather than going through this little charade I choose to see humans as a machine doing work, playing tennis, which requires repeated arm movements and repeated decisions about how one movers arm to hit the ball or serve the ball.

Generally when one is conscious one is conscious of that has just been done and in the processes of preparing what to do as a consequence to that. Unfortunately the human works best if it is continuous and takes advantages of the reflexes available so deciding plays little role because one knows te play afoot which means much reaction is going to take place with a few changes to correct or change in response to changes in conditions. Of course this is part of a process which already has many components built in so if there is a choice it is among what has already being prepared as part of previously rehearsed scenarios. So what is cause and effect. What is choice. what is it of which one is conscious.

Put somebody in an unlit room. Put in ear plugs so they can't hear. Put on a blindfold so they can't see anything.

Numb all their limbs so they can't feel a thing.

Even with no external stimulation they will still be able to lift their arm at will.

 

[DBT]

And that 'do' is a thought.

A willed thought.

Your will is shaped and formed by inputs and processing before it enters consciousness.

 

[untermensche]

A willed thought.

Your will is shaped and formed by inputs and processing before it enters consciousness.

That's a nice hypothesis.

But shaping an input is not something you understand. They are just words you say to pretend you understand what is going on.

 

[fromderinside]

Under what conditions does one move one's arm. Usually its part of something more than the arm moving. I see the tennis ball coming off the racket of my opponent, Is that the moment in which I decide to move my arm, or is after I hit the ball toward the opponent to which he later hits the ball which I see that I decide I'm gong to move my arm in preparation of hitting the opponent's return back, or,. .....

The problem is with cause relating to decision to act. Rather than going through this little charade I choose to see humans as a machine doing work, playing tennis, which requires repeated arm movements and repeated decisions about how one movers arm to hit the ball or serve the ball.

Generally when one is conscious one is conscious of that has just been done and in the processes of preparing what to do as a consequence to that. Unfortunately the human works best if it is continuous and takes advantages of the reflexes available so deciding plays little role because one knows te play afoot which means much reaction is going to take place with a few changes to correct or change in response to changes in conditions. Of course this is part of a process which already has many components built in so if there is a choice it is among what has already being prepared as part of previously rehearsed scenarios. So what is cause and effect. What is choice. what is it of which one is conscious.

Put somebody in an unlit room. Put in ear plugs so they can't hear. Put on a blindfold so they can't see anything.

Numb all their limbs so they can't feel a thing.

Even with no external stimulation they will still be able to lift their arm at will.

Problematic at so many levels.

Somebody needs be trained to:
be in an anechoic room because earplugs create their own stimulus as does even an anechoic environment
blindfold or other eye covering devices create their own stimulation as does being placed in darkness
limb numbing is illegal without medical permission from authorities and by potential observer and doing so creates its own stimulation
and doing so defeats the task one is attempting to demonstrate

So not only is your suggestion impossible, but you have done nothing to demonstrate consciousness precedes activity noe where it is possibly located in the human

You are shooting spit wads without thinking. Are you actually conscious of what you are writing?

 

[DBT]

Your will is shaped and formed by inputs and processing before it enters consciousness.

That's a nice hypothesis.

But shaping an input is not something you understand. They are just words you say to pretend you understand what is going on.

It's a fact of physics. You can't see something before the light/information is acquired by the senses and brain, you can't recognize what you are seeing before the information is processed and so on....you still don't have a clue.

 

[none]

 

[untermensche]

That's a nice hypothesis.

But shaping an input is not something you understand. They are just words you say to pretend you understand what is going on.

It's a fact of physics. You can't see something before the light/information is acquired by the senses and brain, you can't recognize what you are seeing before the information is processed and so on....you still don't have a clue.

So you are talking about the visual system?

And you are comparing it to what?

What other system are you comparing it to?

- - - Updated - - -

Put somebody in an unlit room. Put in ear plugs so they can't hear. Put on a blindfold so they can't see anything.

Numb all their limbs so they can't feel a thing.

Even with no external stimulation they will still be able to lift their arm at will.

Problematic at so many levels.

Somebody needs be trained to:
be in an anechoic room because earplugs create their own stimulus as does even an anechoic environment
blindfold or other eye covering devices create their own stimulation as does being placed in darkness
limb numbing is illegal without medical permission from authorities and by potential observer and doing so creates its own stimulation
and doing so defeats the task one is attempting to demonstrate

So not only is your suggestion impossible, but you have done nothing to demonstrate consciousness precedes activity noe where it is possibly located in the human

You are shooting spit wads without thinking. Are you actually conscious of what you are writing?

All it takes is wads of spit to defeat mere speculation.

You have no understandings I need to refute.

You don't have the slightest clue what consciousness is in terms of brain activity.

Your pretense amuses.

 

[fromderinside]

-nm

 

[untermensche]

-nm

The conscious experience is so unlike a reflex to think it can reduced to one takes a great imagination.

So at least you have that.

A great imagination.

 

[fromderinside]

-nm

The conscious experience is so unlike a reflex to think it can reduced to one takes a great imagination.

A great imagination.

Burping is a reflex, nerve tapelicitgs a reflex, head turn to unexpected peripheral event is a reflex. Playing tennis is a pattern of behavior with a hoped for goal such as winning the point, but, the activities, the many arm raises are not willed acts, they are acts in a system of acts with the goal of trying to win the point. Everything is connected with no obvious cause or proximal effect. So the idea of willing an arm lift is absurd.

To suggest that each arm raise in an intentional sequence is directly willed is absurd. That of which you are conscious is a set of rationalizations formed after the fact as to the individual purposes of the events you executed to win the point which are all more or less driven by immediately preceding events without our further thought. I guess will might be applied to reach the goal of winning the point or seen as a desired outcome depending on whether the willed/desired goal is reached. It makes no sense to suggest that will is micromanaging every action in the point winning attempt.

If you believe will micromanages then you belong listed with Horace Barlow suggesting there is a Barlow face receptor in cats because a cell responds uniquely to his face.

 

[DBT]

It's a fact of physics. You can't see something before the light/information is acquired by the senses and brain, you can't recognize what you are seeing before the information is processed and so on....you still don't have a clue.

So you are talking about the visual system?

And you are comparing it to what?

What other system are you comparing it to?

I am quite clearly referring to how the system as a whole works in a sequence of events beginning with inputs, transmission, processing and conscious representation, using the visual system as an example....as well you know whenever you feign incomprehension in order to maintain your absurd notion of autonomous consciousness.

The rest of your post is an example of this denial of the facts of a sequence of physical events that lead to consciousness, beginning with inputs.

 

[untermensche]

So you are talking about the visual system?

And you are comparing it to what?

What other system are you comparing it to?

I am quite clearly referring to how the system as a whole works in a sequence of events beginning with inputs, transmission, processing and conscious representation, using the visual system as an example....as well you know whenever you feign incomprehension in order to maintain your absurd notion of autonomous consciousness.

The rest of your post is an example of this denial of the facts of a sequence of physical events that lead to consciousness, beginning with inputs.

How what system as a whole works?

What system are you talking about?

You don't have the slightest clue what kind of systems are involved in the creation of the conscious experience. We have no understanding of even what possible system could do something like that.

 

[fromderinside]

You don't have the slightest clue what kind of systems are involved in the creation of the conscious experience. We have no understanding of even what possible system could do something like that.

If youy are implicitly arguing that consciousness is an illusion, then I agree. Otherwise you overstate your position to the extreme.

 

[untermensche]

You don't have the slightest clue what kind of systems are involved in the creation of the conscious experience. We have no understanding of even what possible system could do something like that.

If youy are implicitly arguing that consciousness is an illusion, then I agree. Otherwise you overstate your position to the extreme.

Consciousness is the ability to have all the conscious experiences we have everyday.

The visions and sounds and sensations and thoughts and emotions.

These experiences are real and all conscious experience is experienced by the same thing.

All experience converges into consciousness.

Claiming there is no such thing is absurdity.

 

[untermensche]

The conscious experience is so unlike a reflex to think it can reduced to one takes a great imagination.

A great imagination.

Burping is a reflex, nerve tapelicitgs a reflex, head turn to unexpected peripheral event is a reflex. Playing tennis is a pattern of behavior with a hoped for goal such as winning the point, but, the activities, the many arm raises are not willed acts, they are acts in a system of acts with the goal of trying to win the point. Everything is connected with no obvious cause or proximal effect. So the idea of willing an arm lift is absurd.

To suggest that each arm raise in an intentional sequence is directly willed is absurd. That of which you are conscious is a set of rationalizations formed after the fact as to the individual purposes of the events you executed to win the point which are all more or less driven by immediately preceding events without our further thought. I guess will might be applied to reach the goal of winning the point or seen as a desired outcome depending on whether the willed/desired goal is reached. It makes no sense to suggest that will is micromanaging every action in the point winning attempt.

If you believe will micromanages then you belong listed with Horace Barlow suggesting there is a Barlow face receptor in cats because a cell responds uniquely to his face.

We know when we are experiencing a reflex. We have plenty of experience with reflexes.

A reflex is something that occurs that consciousness does not control.

The sneeze, the quad contraction when the patella tendon is struck.

Playing tennis if played well is a highly practiced activity.

And just as walking is a highly practiced activity when an activity is practiced sufficiently controlling that activity becomes very easy. It does not take much effort. But the arm does not just lift on it's own as if by some reflex.

And of course the conscious control of these activities is very general and limited. There are all kinds of activity that takes place below the level of consciousness to make any coordinated movement possible.

You depict conscious humans as if they are unthinking zombies.

Nothing you claim has any connection to actual experience.

A real explanation will explain experience, not pretend experience is some trick.

 

[fromderinside]

Fortunately for you I taught personality. motivation. sensation and perception. and several courses in cognitive and neurobiology.

Early warning. I suggest you not take any of these sources since scenarios like the one I outlined are often part of evaluation which you just absolutely failed.

Humans are humans and humans operate more or less just as I outlined. Those who conduct emprtiical study on living things, any species, which has capacity to direct it's behavior has means to put it in context for near term and sometimes more long term uses. Among the most simple doing this, manta rays, see a moving object and with intent directs itself toward it since it has learned it is food.

That's little different from a human who sees food, perhaps several foods, chooses which to pursue and consume. What may be different is the complexity of physiological defined maps, memories, and activities it employs to do in the food. Since we are social much of what we do is protect ourselves form the most dangerous potential food and threat sources which happen to be human.

Unfortunately we have language, a boon to expression and conceit, and an impediment to empirical determination. You, unfortunately, are dominated by that language to the extent it generates a bias in your judgement against the clear empirical results establishing the strong probability humans are really just very complex mantas.

Examine the language you use. consciousness, experience, untethered terms that appeal to authority for meaning.

 

[untermensche]

Fortunately for you I taught personality. motivation. sensation and perception. and several courses in cognitive and neurobiology.

None of this is evidence or argument.

Humans are humans and humans operate more or less just as I outlined.

Hard to argue with the profound "humans are humans".

Consciousness is a system totally internal to the brain.

All you can do is excite peripheral nerves and see what happens in the brain.

Blindly exciting the brain itself is not engaging the systems responsible for consciousness.

You have no understanding of internal systems of the brain.

You have no understanding of what the brain makes out of peripheral stimulation or how it does anything.

You have no understanding of how any conscious movement is initiated.

 

[DBT]

I am quite clearly referring to how the system as a whole works in a sequence of events beginning with inputs, transmission, processing and conscious representation, using the visual system as an example....as well you know whenever you feign incomprehension in order to maintain your absurd notion of autonomous consciousness.

The rest of your post is an example of this denial of the facts of a sequence of physical events that lead to consciousness, beginning with inputs.

How what system as a whole works?

What system are you talking about?

At this stage, why would you even need to ask? Why feign incomprehension? Obviously the 'system' is a reference to the Central nervous system, CNS, and the brain as its information processor. The collection of lobe and region functions, sense, etc.

You don't have the slightest clue what kind of systems are involved in the creation of the conscious experience. We have no understanding of even what possible system could do something like that.

Another false claim. I know that the function of the senses is to gather information in the form of light in order to enable visual imagery, pressure waves as information for hearing, etc, visual cortex, auditory cortex processing, memory integration and so on....this is not ''nothing'' in terms of the kind of systems involved in the makeup of our conscious experience.

So, ho hum, just another of your mantras of denial.

 

[fromderinside]

None of this is evidence or argument.

Wasn't meant to be.

I'm developing triggers to get you to repeat your mantra reflex.