Consciousness

[untermensche]

Were you forced to do that?

If so, how pathetic.

What an ignorant childish force. Childish in ignorance, without absolutely none of the charm of children.

The problem is that you conflate brain response with force. It is not force or coercion, it is how the brain works....gathering information via the senses, processing, sorting (memory) and responding or reacting, whatever the case may be . That is one of your category errors. One of many.

You appear to be reacting far more than responding, for example.

If one does something because the brain made a decision and not through conscious action then it is totally forced. The patellar reflex reaction is forced by the hammer.

You are claiming the will is an illusion and all action is really forced reaction.

You can't run away from the conclusions of your absurd claims.

 

[fromderinside]

I am not purely a reactive machine.

I can plan and I can override emotion and impulse with will.

If you are purely reactive speak for yourself.

Easy to say, hared to show empirically.

Prove it. Show us something we with which others can use to build a successful conscious model.

 

[untermensche]

I am not purely a reactive machine.

I can plan and I can override emotion and impulse with will.

If you are purely reactive speak for yourself.

Easy to say, hared to show empirically.

Prove it. Show us something we with which others can use to build a successful conscious model.

Your reflex absurdity is easy to say too.

Reflexive activity, in terms of motor activity, is non-functional.

What makes movement functional is conscious control.

 

[DBT]

You are reacting to what you see, read and feel. Your feelings arise in response to what you see and you respond, or not, by means of thoughts that form in 'your' (brains) consciousness....again in response to the inputs which stimulated your response. Even the override is something the brain does in response to new information - this impending action is not a good idea - with the related veto of that action.

The brain is an information processor, an intelligence interactive system of response and reaction (there is a difference).

No, I am understanding something, thinking about it, then acting.

No reaction at all.

Apparently believing all the while that it is your magical autonomous consciousness that shapes and forms itself with no underlying mechanism actively producing your conscious experience....you have no idea.

 

[DBT]

The problem is that you conflate brain response with force. It is not force or coercion, it is how the brain works....gathering information via the senses, processing, sorting (memory) and responding or reacting, whatever the case may be . That is one of your category errors. One of many.

You appear to be reacting far more than responding, for example.

If one does something because the brain made a decision and not through conscious action then it is totally forced. The patellar reflex reaction is forced by the hammer.

You are claiming the will is an illusion and all action is really forced reaction.

You can't run away from the conclusions of your absurd claims.

You are making up your own stuff and projecting it onto me. I don't say that will is an illusion. I have described the function of will as an urge or impulse to act, therefore will plays a useful role for prompting a response. This is not to say that will is the independent master of the brain, orchestrating whatever needs doing....that happens to be your illusion.

 

[fromderinside]

Easy to say, hared to show empirically.

Prove it. Show us something we with which others can use to build a successful conscious model.

Your reflex absurdity is easy to say too.

Reflexive activity, in terms of motor activity, is non-functional.

What makes movement functional is conscious control.

As you wrote our answer is non functional, a reflex, hand wave.

You still need empirical evidence of the figment you call conscious.

 

[untermensche]

Your reflex absurdity is easy to say too.

Reflexive activity, in terms of motor activity, is non-functional.

What makes movement functional is conscious control.

As you wrote our answer is non functional, a reflex, hand wave.

You still need empirical evidence of the figment you call conscious.

No. It is an action. No reaction at all.

Prove me wrong.

 

[untermensche]

No, I am understanding something, thinking about it, then acting.

No reaction at all.

Apparently believing all the while that it is your magical autonomous consciousness that shapes and forms itself with no underlying mechanism actively producing your conscious experience....you have no idea.

Nothing magic about it. Saying something is "autonomous" is just saying it has the ability to initiate something.

You are claiming you know for a fact the mind can't initiate action.

What is your evidence? EVIDENCE!!!

Not your worthless claims and misunderstandings.

You've already shown me in your dealings with imaginary things like eternity and infinity you have trouble separating reality from fantasy.

 

[fromderinside]

No. It is an action. No reaction at all.

Prove me wrong.

Just all the research on the topic since Libet for which you've been unable to counter other than with whine, whine, whine ...

 

[untermensche]

No. It is an action. No reaction at all.

Prove me wrong.

Just all the research on the topic since Libet for which you've been unable to counter other than with whine, whine, whine ...

Research you either can't or won't discuss.

Because you know it is nothing but labeling activity, that is not understood in the least.

It is pretending to understand what is going on.

Emperor's new clothes.

 

[untermensche]

If one does something because the brain made a decision and not through conscious action then it is totally forced. The patellar reflex reaction is forced by the hammer.

You are claiming the will is an illusion and all action is really forced reaction.

You can't run away from the conclusions of your absurd claims.

You are making up your own stuff and projecting it onto me. I don't say that will is an illusion. I have described the function of will as an urge or impulse to act, therefore will plays a useful role for prompting a response. This is not to say that will is the independent master of the brain, orchestrating whatever needs doing....that happens to be your illusion.

You won't accept the consequences of any of your claims.

You are merely an ape repeating the ideas of others. You have none of your own and can't make logical connections on your own.

You want to pretend that decisions are forced upon consciousness by some kind of unknown brain activity.

That is your claim.

You are saying every thought, every movement, is forced and though consciousness thinks it is making decisions it is actually making none. The brain is somehow making decisions about ice cream and HBO.

 

[fromderinside]

Just all the research on the topic since Libet for which you've been unable to counter other than with whine, whine, whine ...

Research you either can't or won't discuss.

Because you know it is nothing but labeling activity, that is not understood in the least.

It is pretending to understand what is going on.

Emperor's new clothes.

The research has been discussed.

What leads you to think that research is labeling activity?

No pretense. Methods, assumptions, results, and discussions are included.

I agree you are presenting nothing in response.

 

[DBT]

Apparently believing all the while that it is your magical autonomous consciousness that shapes and forms itself with no underlying mechanism actively producing your conscious experience....you have no idea.

Nothing magic about it. Saying something is "autonomous" is just saying it has the ability to initiate something.

You are claiming you know for a fact the mind can't initiate action.

What is your evidence? EVIDENCE!!!

Not your worthless claims and misunderstandings.

You've already shown me in your dealings with imaginary things like eternity and infinity you have trouble separating reality from fantasy.

You imply magic because consciousness is not an independent mechanism initiating action but an activity of the brain which forms both conscious representation of information it gathers, visual, auditory, etc, and initiates actions while representing this in conscious form. That is what the evidence supports, that is the physics of cognition and motor action. What you suggest is contrary to evidence, physics, logic and reason.

What is your evidence? EVIDENCE!!!

You ignore or dismiss all evidence that is provided. You either dismiss or ignore anything that researchers happen to say that does not agree with your faith, the religion of the holy homunculus.

 

[untermensche]

Research you either can't or won't discuss.

Because you know it is nothing but labeling activity, that is not understood in the least.

It is pretending to understand what is going on.

Emperor's new clothes.

The research has been discussed.

What leads you to think that research is labeling activity?

No pretense. Methods, assumptions, results, and discussions are included.

I agree you are presenting nothing in response.

So this is your argument? Believe me I would love to discuss these kinds of studies because the claims are unsupported in any way.

These experiments do nothing more than label activity that is not understood. How it arises is not understood and what the activity is actually doing is not understood.

Try to find any actual explanation of any of the activity. It is nothing but assumptions and labels.

A bunch of apes claiming the emperors new clothes are amazing.

Show me how these studies do more than label activity.

Give one bit of proof of your nonsense.

 

[untermensche]

Nothing magic about it. Saying something is "autonomous" is just saying it has the ability to initiate something.

You are claiming you know for a fact the mind can't initiate action.

What is your evidence? EVIDENCE!!!

Not your worthless claims and misunderstandings.

You've already shown me in your dealings with imaginary things like eternity and infinity you have trouble separating reality from fantasy.

You imply magic because consciousness is not an independent mechanism initiating action but an activity of the brain which forms both conscious representation of information it gathers, visual, auditory, etc, and initiates actions while representing this in conscious form. That is what the evidence supports, that is the physics of cognition and motor action. What you suggest is contrary to evidence, physics, logic and reason.

What is your evidence? EVIDENCE!!!

You ignore or dismiss all evidence that is provided. You either dismiss or ignore anything that researchers happen to say that does not agree with your faith, the religion of the holy homunculus.

You think infinity is real.

Your ability to make rational conclusions is seriously in doubt.

You claim that consciousness, an aspect of brain activity, can in no way influence other brain activity. Without one once of proof.

This is as irrational a conclusion as thinking infinity is real.

It is absolute nonsense.

But you are too blind to understand what is and is not rational.

You think infinity is real for Pete's sake. That is as bad as it gets.

 

[fromderinside]

So this is your argument? Believe me I would love to discuss these kinds of studies because the claims are unsupported in any way.

These experiments do nothing more than label activity that is not understood. How it arises is not understood and what the activity is actually doing is not understood.

Try to find any actual explanation of any of the activity. It is nothing but assumptions and labels.

A bunch of apes claiming the emperors new clothes are amazing.

Show me how these studies do more than label activity.

Give one bit of proof of your nonsense.

You repeated yourself with more repetition of nothing said concerning the studies.

You are getting nothing more from me until you discuss the studies I have discussed point by point.

 

[untermensche]

So this is your argument? Believe me I would love to discuss these kinds of studies because the claims are unsupported in any way.

These experiments do nothing more than label activity that is not understood. How it arises is not understood and what the activity is actually doing is not understood.

Try to find any actual explanation of any of the activity. It is nothing but assumptions and labels.

A bunch of apes claiming the emperors new clothes are amazing.

Show me how these studies do more than label activity.

Give one bit of proof of your nonsense.

You repeated yourself with more repetition of nothing said concerning the studies.

You are getting nothing more from me until you discuss the studies I have discussed point by point.

I said I am willing.

Go ahead.

Tell me about the study, in your own words, and what it showed.

 

[fromderinside]

I've already done that without you making valid empirical material.

I'm not your librarian. Go back through my articles, select any one or two you want and dissect them with empirical, cited evidence.

 

[untermensche]

I've already done that without you making valid empirical material.

I'm not your librarian. Go back through my articles, select any one or two you want and dissect them with empirical, cited evidence.

If you want me to discuss something you have to prove you know something about these things you plop down like little turds.

 

[DBT]

You are making up your own stuff and projecting it onto me. I don't say that will is an illusion. I have described the function of will as an urge or impulse to act, therefore will plays a useful role for prompting a response. This is not to say that will is the independent master of the brain, orchestrating whatever needs doing....that happens to be your illusion.

You won't accept the consequences of any of your claims.

That's you with your magical thinking that's not supported by evidence or anyone who works in the field of neuroscience except maybe a very small percentage of eccentrics.

You are merely an ape repeating the ideas of others. You have none of your own and can't make logical connections on your own.

Errm, right, like all of the available evidence and the vast majority of the experts who work in the field, as if the evidence isn't clear enough for anyone with a functional brain to see that it is brain agency that is responsible for cognition.

But no, not you, not good enough for your needs....you prefer to make up your own stuff.

You want to pretend that decisions are forced upon consciousness by some kind of unknown brain activity.

That is your claim.

Well, actually ''forced upon consciousness'' isn't my claim, it is your claim, your rationale. I've already explained this several time but you won't accept anything that doesn't suit your needs.