Consciousness

[fromderinside]

I will change when people are honest.

But those who claim to understand intention are liars.

All we know is the experience of our intentions. And the experience is not one of being forced to do anything.

Two words two problems.

You suggest one isn't honest when one disputes you. The one demonstrably dishonest in that transaction is you since you have no way of knowing the heart of the other individual.

No one is responding to your mantras is trying to demonstrate they know intention because that would be counter to their arguments that intention is not what is formed when one responds with actions, useful or no, to inputs. You know what you believe and as bilby most eloquently and completely points out what you believe is wrong. Continuing your wrong conclusion as argument it not rational. ergo it is not argument, rather it is propaganda.

We have strong evidence based arguments countering your beliefs. Its about time you respond to counter that evidence with something more than belief. A large fraction of humanity believes the earth is only 6000 years old even with libraries of evidence to the contrary. Given that, we see there is little hope you will counter. We must conclude you are a fanatic who doesn't operate in the real world. So we'll stop your propaganda by identifying and isolating it.

The first thing you need to do is look at logic and find that personal experience is just belief.

 

[untermensche]

I will change when people are honest.

But those who claim to understand intention are liars.

All we know is the experience of our intentions. And the experience is not one of being forced to do anything.

Two words two problems.

You suggest one isn't honest when one disputes you.

Get real. I would be ashamed to make such ludicrous statements.

I suggest one is not being dishonest when they claim they have evidence that intention is merely a reflex.

 

[fromderinside]

I will change when people are honest.

But those who claim to understand intention are liars.

All we know is the experience of our intentions. And the experience is not one of being forced to do anything.

Two words two problems.

You suggest one isn't honest when one disputes you. The one demonstrably dishonest in that transaction is you since you have no way of knowing the heart of the other individual.

No one is responding to your mantras is trying to demonstrate they know intention because that would be counter to their arguments that intention is not what is formed when one responds with actions, useful or no, to inputs. You know what you believe and as bilby most eloquently and completely points out what you believe is wrong. Continuing your wrong conclusion as argument it not rational. ergo it is not argument, rather it is propaganda.

We have strong evidence based arguments countering your beliefs. Its about time you respond to counter that evidence with something more than belief. A large fraction of humanity believes the earth is only 6000 years old even with libraries of evidence to the contrary. Given that, we see there is little hope you will counter. We must conclude you are a fanatic who doesn't operate in the real world. So we'll stop your propaganda by identifying and isolating it.

The first thing you need to do is look at logic and find that personal experience is just belief.

Get real. I would be ashamed to make such ludicrous statements.

I suggest one is not being dishonest when they claim they have evidence that intention is merely a reflex.

Here is the experience and evidence I supplied which you never answered. with exceptions beyond denials base on your experience which bilby has shown to be in error.

Nope. Stuff arrives that requires reaction such as raising your arm. your arm raises. You didn't do something. Something was done to you leading to the inevitable reaction.

The dishonesty is denying the direction of energy flow. Humans operate after the fact, we are reactive.

Instance. I am old. I must go to the bathroom often. My heart and body are weak. After I sit on the commode I must push with my arms (lift them) to regain my feet else I'll remain fixed on the commode. I was forced to make a deposit, i was forced to sit, I was forced to use my arms to regain my feet. Where is the doing something to act on the world?

Get it. We don't act on the world it acts on us but because we evolved we are able to react to most things.

Humans are not the shining city on the hill. Humans are the garbage dump where things decay more rapidly. Moving energy from one state to make things better in a second state has the effect of lowering the effective energy of the whole system. That's us.

Nope. Stuff arrives that requires reaction such as raising your arm. your arm raises. You didn't do something. Something was done to you leading to the inevitable reaction.

The dishonesty is denying the direction of energy flow. Humans operate after the fact, we are reactive.

Instance. I am old. I must go to the bathroom often. My heart and body are weak. After I sit on the commode I must push with my arms (lift them) to regain my feet else I'll remain fixed on the commode. I was forced to make a deposit, i was forced to sit, I was forced to use my arms to regain my feet. Where is the doing something to act on the world?

Get it. We don't act on the world it acts on us but because we evolved we are able to react to most things.

Humans are not the shining city on the hill. Humans are the garbage dump where things decay more rapidly. Moving energy from one state to make things better in a second state has the effect of lowering the effective energy of the whole system. That's us.

So here is your opportunity. Two statements, one of 'experience' er, I mean belief, and another of general finding IAC thermodynamics. Neither have you addressed . Its time you dismantle these 'claims', go away, or change tactics to something resembling argument.

In line with your tactics if you don't demonstrate these statements are false by breaking them down, I will, in the future, do as you do and repeat them as my 'reasons' you thoughts are garbage.

 

[DBT]

You're brain is on repeat.
Time to reset.

I will change when people are honest.

But those who claim to understand intention are liars.

All we know is the experience of our intentions. And the experience is not one of being forced to do anything.

Well, that must be you being less than honest, because you have been provided with links to experiments that deal with the very issue of brain agency and the mechanisms by which movement initiation takes place....and the timing, plus the commentary by researchers who explain the significance of their research, so never mind what I and others on this forum have pointed out and backed, you ignore everything and just assert your own faith based beliefs. Basing assumptions on subjective experience while ignoring evidence being an example of faith.

Nor is it a matter of you ''being forced to do something'' as if you are something that's residing in the brain in the form of a homunculus;

Movement Intention After Parietal Cortex Stimulation in Humans;
''Parietal and premotor cortex regions are serious contenders for bringing motor intentions and motor responses into awareness. We used electrical stimulation in seven patients undergoing awake brain surgery. Stimulating the right inferior parietal regions triggered a strong intention and desire to move the contralateral hand, arm, or foot, whereas stimulating the left inferior parietal region provoked the intention to move the lips and to talk. When stimulation intensity was increased in parietal areas, participants believed they had really performed these movements, although no electromyographic activity was detected. Stimulation of the premotor region triggered overt mouth and contralateral limb movements. Yet, patients firmly denied that they had moved. Conscious intention and motor awareness thus arise from increased parietal activity before movement execution.''

 

[George S]

I thought I'd take a break from addressing untermenche and share some thoughts about consciousness.
First, I wondered why consciousness at all? After all almost all of what we do is unconscious. We digest unconsciously, we breathe unconsciously, our heart beats unconsciously, we have unconscious bodily desires for water and food. We have unconscious responses to some dangerous situations. Even an infant will not crawl off a visual cliff. Any time we are awakened from unconsciousness it is an unconscious (has to be, eh?) decision to awaken due to whatever that unconscious experienced. Temptation is unconscious. The actual individual muscle movements are unconscious. A person may think I will raise my arm and the unconscious knows just which muscles to contract to get the arm to the configuration imagined.

I think I'll have a drink and a whole lot of stuff -- standing up, walking to the tap, turning the water on, finding a glass or cup or perhaps cupped hands will do, and the body movements required to get cup to lip are not the conscious thought. The conscious thought is engage in drinking.

I make a mental note (I'll assume your mental note taking is similar enough to mine that this is not lost on you.) There is a sometimes used consumable in short supply. The next time I am in the grocery and I am passing that consumable that mental note acts. It was, in a sense, a self-programmed subroutine (If that consumable is seen, buy some) in mid-term (a couple of weeks) mental storage.

When did I will my arm to reach for that package? The decision was self-programmed long before. Will is an act of imagination. It is an action order to the unconscious to get the body in the state I am consciously envisioning.

I thought it was time for a new car. I imagined what would be ideal for me. I became more aware of automobile and truck ads. I became aware of the new cars I saw on the road. I talked to friends and family. All because of this thought I had.

Conscious self-programming of the unconscious is routine. I think I'll learn that new dance step. I am going to learn to home-brew beer. I am going to study metaphysics. I am going to reply to a post. I self-program by imagining how I will act should certain temptations come my way. I make a plan. Absent a plan the unconscious rules the reaction to a novel situation.

Rehearsal programs the unconscious. Repetition programs the unconscious. There is some truth in fake it till you make it. A lie repeated often enough becomes learned. Avoidance of significantly painful or frightening experience may be learned instantly and permanently (phobia).

The consciousness has the duty to explain the body's unconscious actions. To rationalize all behavior. It seemed like a good idea at the time. or I just reacted. I didn't mean to. or I have since changed my mind. So don't hold my prior mistake against me.

The consciousness has the duty to use logic. To invent if-then-else scenarios. To plan ahead so that when the rubber meets the road the unconscious reaction is correct.

The saddest words: I can't imagine doing that!

 

[untermensche]

I will change when people are honest.

But those who claim to understand intention are liars.

All we know is the experience of our intentions. And the experience is not one of being forced to do anything.

Well, that must be you being less than honest, because you have been provided with links to experiments that deal with the very issue of brain agency and the mechanisms by which movement initiation takes place....and the timing, plus the commentary by researchers who explain the significance of their research, so never mind what I and others on this forum have pointed out and backed, you ignore everything and just assert your own faith based beliefs. Basing assumptions on subjective experience while ignoring evidence being an example of faith.

Nor is it a matter of you ''being forced to do something'' as if you are something that's residing in the brain in the form of a homunculus;

Movement Intention After Parietal Cortex Stimulation in Humans;
''Parietal and premotor cortex regions are serious contenders for bringing motor intentions and motor responses into awareness. We used electrical stimulation in seven patients undergoing awake brain surgery. Stimulating the right inferior parietal regions triggered a strong intention and desire to move the contralateral hand, arm, or foot, whereas stimulating the left inferior parietal region provoked the intention to move the lips and to talk. When stimulation intensity was increased in parietal areas, participants believed they had really performed these movements, although no electromyographic activity was detected. Stimulation of the premotor region triggered overt mouth and contralateral limb movements. Yet, patients firmly denied that they had moved. Conscious intention and motor awareness thus arise from increased parietal activity before movement execution.''

You keep posting the same worthless shit over and over.

It is proof ALL you have is worthless shit.

Just giving labels to activity you don't understand in any way is not understanding the activity.

Intention is not understood at all. Not one single aspect of it.

If it was you could explain it instead of posting worthless shit that talks about intention but explains it in no way.

 

[untermensche]

I thought I'd take a break from addressing untermenche and share some thoughts about consciousness.
First, I wondered why consciousness at all? After all almost all of what we do is unconscious. We digest unconsciously, we breathe unconsciously, our heart beats unconsciously, we have unconscious bodily desires for water and food. We have unconscious responses to some dangerous situations. Even an infant will not crawl off a visual cliff. Any time we are awakened from unconsciousness it is an unconscious (has to be, eh?) decision to awaken due to whatever that unconscious experienced. Temptation is unconscious. The actual individual muscle movements are unconscious. A person may think I will raise my arm and the unconscious knows just which muscles to contract to get the arm to the configuration imagined.

I think I'll have a drink and a whole lot of stuff -- standing up, walking to the tap, turning the water on, finding a glass or cup or perhaps cupped hands will do, and the body movements required to get cup to lip are not the conscious thought. The conscious thought is engage in drinking.

I make a mental note (I'll assume your mental note taking is similar enough to mine that this is not lost on you.) There is a sometimes used consumable in short supply. The next time I am in the grocery and I am passing that consumable that mental note acts. It was, in a sense, a self-programmed subroutine (If that consumable is seen, buy some) in mid-term (a couple of weeks) mental storage.

When did I will my arm to reach for that package? The decision was self-programmed long before. Will is an act of imagination. It is an action order to the unconscious to get the body in the state I am consciously envisioning.

I thought it was time for a new car. I imagined what would be ideal for me. I became more aware of automobile and truck ads. I became aware of the new cars I saw on the road. I talked to friends and family. All because of this thought I had.

Conscious self-programming of the unconscious is routine. I think I'll learn that new dance step. I am going to learn to home-brew beer. I am going to study metaphysics. I am going to reply to a post. I self-program by imagining how I will act should certain temptations come my way. I make a plan. Absent a plan the unconscious rules the reaction to a novel situation.

Rehearsal programs the unconscious. Repetition programs the unconscious. There is some truth in fake it till you make it. A lie repeated often enough becomes learned. Avoidance of significantly painful or frightening experience may be learned instantly and permanently (phobia).

The consciousness has the duty to explain the body's unconscious actions. To rationalize all behavior. It seemed like a good idea at the time. or I just reacted. I didn't mean to. or I have since changed my mind. So don't hold my prior mistake against me.

The consciousness has the duty to use logic. To invent if-then-else scenarios. To plan ahead so that when the rubber meets the road the unconscious reaction is correct.

The saddest words: I can't imagine doing that!

You're not taking a break. You are talking about the same exact thing. Intention.

Why my little moniker is mentioned eludes me.

You are speaking to somebody who for decades helped people overcome strokes and spinal cord injuries.

You have things absolutely upside down.

Practice makes it easier for there to be conscious control. We can walk with next to no effort because we have practiced it so much.

But have a stroke and have conscious control damaged and THEN we see all kinds of reflexive activity. We see synergies and the inability to isolate movement.

The stroke victim may lose the ability to isolate knee extension from hip and trunk extension, a common problem. But with practice and practice and practice many regain the ability to overcome REFLEXIVE movement which is NOT PURPOSEFUL and regain conscious purposeful movement.

Consciousness is a layer of control over underlying reflexive behavior.

Nobody can tell me differently. I helped people regain conscious control for a living.

 

[George S]

You are speaking to somebody who for decades helped people overcome strokes and spinal cord injuries.

You have things absolutely upside down.

Practice makes it easier for there to be conscious control. We can walk with next to no effort because we have practiced it so much.

Effortlessly because the movements have been practiced. Then no effort has to be paid to conscious walking. The consciousness is concerned with the high level: An act of will -- conscious directing unconscious to walk. A complex high-level activity. Not the unconscious details. This learned thing is then accomplished by the unconscious. Learned things are accomplished at reflexive speed. I remember an accident-avoidance move that I had previously practiced being so fast it was not a consciously willed activity. And yet the will to practice and plan for the future was a willed activity.

But have a stroke and have conscious control damaged and THEN we see all kinds of reflexive activity. We see synergies and the inability to isolate movement.

The stroke victim may lose the ability to isolate knee extension from hip and trunk extension, a common problem. But with practice and practice and practice many regain the ability to overcome REFLEXIVE movement which is NOT PURPOSEFUL and regain conscious purposeful movement.

Consciousness is a layer of control over underlying reflexive behavior.

Nobody can tell me differently. I helped people regain conscious control for a living.

You helped people regain brain function. It is normal for the will to raise my hand to accomplish the necessary unconscious muscle contractions. It is abnormal indicating brain malfunction when will is followed by inaction.

I don't get the issue between us. My take is that consciousness is exactly what it is like to have first person experience of now. We agree that conscious intent can normally affect body movement. The body movement itself is accomplished by neurons. So the consciousness must be able to interact with neurons. It is neurons that interact with neurons. Conscious control is neurons doing something in response to a thought. Willful acts are the result of thoughts. Thoughts are ... free? Thoughts are imagination.

Consciousness -- a part of the neurology of the brain -- is a layer of control over underlying reflexive behavior only sometimes. Sometimes reflex happens even present a conscious effort -- will -- to not react. It is anecdotal, however, it shows the issue. A snake researcher knew the snakes were behind unbreakable glass. He consciously knows that they cannot harm him and so he stands with his nose nearly to the glass. His firm intent is to hold that position no matter what. The snake strikes at him -- he jerks his head back. Reflex overriding conscious intent. (A rule of NLP is that when the unconscious and conscious disagree the unconscious wins.)

We have an on-board reasoning ability. A biological computer. It knows the rule that denying the consequent of a proposition negates that proposition. (If that is true then I'm a monkey's uncle! [implied: And I'm not a monkey's uncle so that is not true.]) This computer-like reasoner is quite slow. Sometime it takes time to figure something out. And this reasoner is aware of sensory input -- is conscious. Perhaps other parts or portions of the neurology are aware of the same sensory input with a different first-person awareness unavailable to the consciousness. An unconscious reasoner. Who gives conclusions by gut feel and emotional reaction. That guy is creepy. Consciousnesses, plural. When you have an internal dialog just who are you talking to but a separate consciousness inside.

Do I claim to understand the nature of being? No. But I know enough to know that it is not a separate entity from the brain. We are not a mind with brain and a body. We are a whole -- a body (including a brain) which produces a mind. A mind that feels like it is the owner of the body and its organs including the brain. An entity whose mere thought can cause movement of his own body's parts.

If we are a biological robot constrained by mechanism, then this is what it feels like to be such.
If we are a presence in some field that is generated by the human brain, then this is what it feels like to be such.

Would Data (Star Trek), Daneel (Asimov), or C3PO (Star Wars) have robot consciousness? A feeling that this is what it is like to be a created thing -- a robot? Would the clone of a human being created in the lab have a different experience from a natural born human?

 

[untermensche]

Effortlessly because the movements have been practiced. Then no effort has to be paid to conscious walking. The consciousness is concerned with the high level: An act of will -- conscious directing unconscious to walk. A complex high-level activity. Not the unconscious details. This learned thing is then accomplished by the unconscious. Learned things are accomplished at reflexive speed. I remember an accident-avoidance move that I had previously practiced being so fast it was not a consciously willed activity. And yet the will to practice and plan for the future was a willed activity.

Low effort does not equate to no effort.

I assure you sit still and at some random moment lift your arm.

There will be some effort. You will have to do "'something".

That "something" is conscious control, not a reflex.

If there is movement where the "something" done is not clear that does not by some magic make the times where it is clearly there disappear.

Consciousness is a layer of control over underlying reflexive behavior.

Nobody can tell me differently. I helped people regain conscious control for a living.

You helped people regain brain function. It is normal for the will to raise my hand to accomplish the necessary unconscious muscle contractions. It is abnormal indicating brain malfunction when will is followed by inaction.

I helped them regain conscious control over movements. Yes the brain is involved in that.

What they lacked was conscious control. All the nerves to move the limbs are intact. If the brain can move the body without this control why doesn't it?

 

[fromderinside]

Wow. I'm in a vat of warm saline liquid, no light, no sound, just me and this liquid. I've got to do something. I didn't think that. The lack of sensation impelled me to act to stimulate myself. Sounds a lot like your conscious will.

well. it isn't.

We are reactive machines. If there is nothing for which to react we create something for which to react. Nope. Not free will or consciousness It's just necessity for a highly integrated being.

Just like I can elicit EEG from a gourd filled with jello.

An analogy by FDI.

 

[DBT]

Well, that must be you being less than honest, because you have been provided with links to experiments that deal with the very issue of brain agency and the mechanisms by which movement initiation takes place....and the timing, plus the commentary by researchers who explain the significance of their research, so never mind what I and others on this forum have pointed out and backed, you ignore everything and just assert your own faith based beliefs. Basing assumptions on subjective experience while ignoring evidence being an example of faith.

Nor is it a matter of you ''being forced to do something'' as if you are something that's residing in the brain in the form of a homunculus;

Movement Intention After Parietal Cortex Stimulation in Humans;
''Parietal and premotor cortex regions are serious contenders for bringing motor intentions and motor responses into awareness. We used electrical stimulation in seven patients undergoing awake brain surgery. Stimulating the right inferior parietal regions triggered a strong intention and desire to move the contralateral hand, arm, or foot, whereas stimulating the left inferior parietal region provoked the intention to move the lips and to talk. When stimulation intensity was increased in parietal areas, participants believed they had really performed these movements, although no electromyographic activity was detected. Stimulation of the premotor region triggered overt mouth and contralateral limb movements. Yet, patients firmly denied that they had moved. Conscious intention and motor awareness thus arise from increased parietal activity before movement execution.''

You keep posting the same worthless shit over and over.

It is proof ALL you have is worthless shit.

Just giving labels to activity you don't understand in any way is not understanding the activity.

Intention is not understood at all. Not one single aspect of it.

If it was you could explain it instead of posting worthless shit that talks about intention but explains it in no way.

Oops, tripped the defense mechanism reflex response again.

 

[DBT]

I thought I'd take a break from addressing untermenche and share some thoughts about consciousness.
First, I wondered why consciousness at all? After all almost all of what we do is unconscious. We digest unconsciously, we breathe unconsciously, our heart beats unconsciously, we have unconscious bodily desires for water and food. We have unconscious responses to some dangerous situations.

Probably the same reason we use maps, graphs and charts. It's beneficial to have a central planning 'space' room or office in order to organize activity that requires complex response, enabling recognition of objects and events of world and better ways to respond to them, planning, etc. Which is is difficult without awareness. Plants unconsciously respond to their environment as conditions arise, for example, but this has limitations and doesn't allow for the complex behaviour that animals with highly developed CNS's engage with.

 

[untermensche]

Wow. I'm in a vat of warm saline liquid, no light, no sound, just me and this liquid. I've got to do something. I didn't think that. The lack of sensation impelled me to act to stimulate myself. Sounds a lot like your conscious will.

well. it isn't.

We are reactive machines. If there is nothing for which to react we create something for which to react. Nope. Not free will or consciousness It's just necessity for a highly integrated being.

Just like I can elicit EEG from a gourd filled with jello.

An analogy by FDI.

I am not purely a reactive machine.

I can plan and I can override emotion and impulse with will.

If you are purely reactive speak for yourself.

 

[bilby]

Wow. I'm in a vat of warm saline liquid, no light, no sound, just me and this liquid. I've got to do something. I didn't think that. The lack of sensation impelled me to act to stimulate myself. Sounds a lot like your conscious will.

well. it isn't.

We are reactive machines. If there is nothing for which to react we create something for which to react. Nope. Not free will or consciousness It's just necessity for a highly integrated being.

Just like I can elicit EEG from a gourd filled with jello.

An analogy by FDI.

I am not purely a reactive machine.

I can plan and I can override emotion and impulse with will.

And yet you couldn't help but say that.

I bet you can't stop yourself from replying to this either.

 

[untermensche]

I am not purely a reactive machine.

I can plan and I can override emotion and impulse with will.

And yet you couldn't help but say that.

I bet you can't stop yourself from replying to this either.

What is your evidence I could not have written something different?

Has nobody ever erased an initial idea after reading it and started over?

I have ideas I want to express. I want to express them. Nothing is forcing me to.

At least nobody can provide the least bit of evidence something is forcing me.

Nobody knows what "me" is even.

 

[bilby]

And yet you couldn't help but say that.

I bet you can't stop yourself from replying to this either.

What is your evidence I could not have written something different?

Has nobody ever erased an initial idea after reading it and started over?

I have ideas I want to express. I want to express them. Nothing is forcing me to.

At least nobody can provide the least bit of evidence something is forcing me.

Nobody knows what "me" is even.

:laughing-smiley-014

 

[untermensche]

Were you forced to do that?

If so, how pathetic.

What an ignorant childish force. Childish in ignorance, without absolutely none of the charm of children.

 

[DBT]

Wow. I'm in a vat of warm saline liquid, no light, no sound, just me and this liquid. I've got to do something. I didn't think that. The lack of sensation impelled me to act to stimulate myself. Sounds a lot like your conscious will.

well. it isn't.

We are reactive machines. If there is nothing for which to react we create something for which to react. Nope. Not free will or consciousness It's just necessity for a highly integrated being.

Just like I can elicit EEG from a gourd filled with jello.

An analogy by FDI.

I am not purely a reactive machine.

I can plan and I can override emotion and impulse with will.

If you are purely reactive speak for yourself.

You are reacting to what you see, read and feel. Your feelings arise in response to what you see and you respond, or not, by means of thoughts that form in 'your' (brains) consciousness....again in response to the inputs which stimulated your response. Even the override is something the brain does in response to new information - this impending action is not a good idea - with the related veto of that action.

The brain is an information processor, an intelligence interactive system of response and reaction (there is a difference).

 

[DBT]

Were you forced to do that?

If so, how pathetic.

What an ignorant childish force. Childish in ignorance, without absolutely none of the charm of children.

The problem is that you conflate brain response with force. It is not force or coercion, it is how the brain works....gathering information via the senses, processing, sorting (memory) and responding or reacting, whatever the case may be . That is one of your category errors. One of many.

You appear to be reacting far more than responding, for example.

 

[untermensche]

I am not purely a reactive machine.

I can plan and I can override emotion and impulse with will.

If you are purely reactive speak for yourself.

You are reacting to what you see, read and feel. Your feelings arise in response to what you see and you respond, or not, by means of thoughts that form in 'your' (brains) consciousness....again in response to the inputs which stimulated your response. Even the override is something the brain does in response to new information - this impending action is not a good idea - with the related veto of that action.

The brain is an information processor, an intelligence interactive system of response and reaction (there is a difference).

No, I am understanding something, thinking about it, then acting.

No reaction at all.