Consciousness

[George S]

I am conscious, therefore I have consciousness (much of the time). I am my self (as opposed to someone else's self). It is the self that is conscious. Consciousness having consciousness is confusing the issue because it makes it seem more ambiguous than it needs to be.

Consciousness and "the self" are the same thing.

So close. It is the self that is conscious. Consciousness is an adjective made into a noun, like fitness. Fitness describes the state of being fit (or not) It does not exist independently in the world.

I do think people can more readily see that "the self" is not the same thing as the brain.

I, myself, am both a brain with a body and a body with a brain.
I am, in many ways, my memories. I remember my stepdad's last words, "I am ...." Then he became unconscious and died 10 days later.
But also, I am my body. These aches and pains of age are mine.

So I agree (!) that "the self" is not the same thing as the brain. My self is the the player in the drama of life that has the name I use, has the physical characteristics of me. This player is responsible for being the director of himself, and the author of all the lines the player speaks. In one drama that actor snatched a falling baby whose head was about four inches from concrete. I did it without thinking. The unconscious, a part of me, was the actor -- me. There is a part of me that imagines. It is the self. There is a part of me that dreams. There is a part of me that regrets. The part of me that changes my mind for me. My self. Including my unconscious.

 

[Treedbear]

So close. It is the self that is conscious. Consciousness is an adjective made into a noun, like fitness. Fitness describes the state of being fit (or not) It does not exist independently in the world.
...

I don't know how you did that but in post #3021 you attributed untermensche's quote to me. Should be as follows:

I am conscious, therefore I have consciousness (much of the time). I am my self (as opposed to someone else's self). It is the self that is conscious. Consciousness having consciousness is confusing the issue because it makes it seem more ambiguous than it needs to be.

Consciousness and "the self" are the same thing.

...

 

[untermensche]

So close. It is the self that is conscious. Consciousness is an adjective made into a noun, like fitness. Fitness describes the state of being fit (or not) It does not exist independently in the world.

The consciousness possesses the state of being conscious.

The brain is not conscious.

Something the brain creates is.

I, myself, am both a brain with a body and a body with a brain.

You have a body and you have a brain. But YOU are not a body or a brain.

YOU are something created by a brain.

I am, in many ways, my memories.

You are many things you do not remember too. Experience has an impact on the consciousness.

 

[untermensche]

Consciousness and "the self" are the same thing.

I do think people can more readily see that "the self" is not the same thing as the brain.

So apparently you do see my point, which is that the self is the thing that is conscious.

"The self" is no more explanatory than "the consciousness". But they both describe the same thing.

Then why would you call the self "consciousness" when you can see that it has a perfectly good name already?

You are free to call it what you like.

 

[George S]

I don't know how you did that but in post #3021 you attributed untermensche's quote to me. Should be as follows:

Sorry, thanks for correction.

 

[DBT]

An aspect of brain activity that's inseparable from the brain and its activity, hence not an autonomous entity as you erroneously claim.

That is how consciousness is able to make the brain move the arm.

It is connected to it.

It is not consciousness that moves the arm. The brain moves the arm while generating both the conscious intention to move the arm, for whatever given reason, and the motor actions needed for moving the arm.

 

[untermensche]

That is how consciousness is able to make the brain move the arm.

It is connected to it.

It is not consciousness that moves the arm. The brain moves the arm while generating both the conscious intention to move the arm, for whatever given reason, and the motor actions needed for moving the arm.

I said the consciousness causes the brain to move the arm.

Try it.

 

[DBT]

It is not consciousness that moves the arm. The brain moves the arm while generating both the conscious intention to move the arm, for whatever given reason, and the motor actions needed for moving the arm.

I said the consciousness causes the brain to move the arm.

Try it.

I know what you said. You have said it too many times to list. And each and every time you say it you ignore the means by which the perception and action of moving your arm is performed.

 

[untermensche]

I said the consciousness causes the brain to move the arm.

Try it.

I know what you said. You have said it too many times to list. And each and every time you say it you ignore the means by which the perception and action of moving your arm is performed.

I ignore the stupidity of the science of the timing of human guesses. That's all.

 

[fromderinside]

Uh uh. You go naw naw, naw naw, naw naw naw.

Some say ignorance is bliss. I don't. Ignorance is laziness.

 

[untermensche]

Uh uh. You go naw naw, naw naw, naw naw naw.

Some say ignorance is bliss. I don't. Ignorance is laziness.

That's what you are supposed to say to worthless "science".

 

[DBT]

I know what you said. You have said it too many times to list. And each and every time you say it you ignore the means by which the perception and action of moving your arm is performed.

I ignore the stupidity of the science of the timing of human guesses. That's all.

It's not just the timing, we can ignore the timing and look at the physics of cognition beginning with sensory inputs, transmission of information, processing, etc, which is necessary for conscious representation....which you persistently ignore. You ignore this undeniable sequence prior to consciousness, information that is used to shape consciousness, sight, sound, thoughts, etc, because you prefer your own version, your own beliefs, your own faith.

 

[untermensche]

This is the timing. This is the physics.

The mind decides to move the arm. The mind causes the brain to move the arm. The arm moves.

 

[Juma]

This is the timing. This is the physics.

The mind decides to move the arm. The mind causes the brain to move the arm. The arm moves.

Decisions are a myth.
That is a post fact construct of the mind to make our behaviour understandable.

 

[DBT]

This is the timing. This is the physics.

The mind decides to move the arm. The mind causes the brain to move the arm. The arm moves.

Nope, you are missing whole orders of information processing prior to that experience. Your remarks implies that this all just appears ex nihilo in the 'mind' which is simply not true.

Preferences and Feelings as Unconscious Guides to the Present
''Evolution (as well as early learning and culture) influences our preferences and, through them, our tendencies to approach or avoid aspects of our environment. We are predisposed to prefer certain objects and aspects of our environment over others. We are often guided by our feelings, intuitions, and gut reactions, which prioritize the things that are important to do or attend to (Damasio, 1996; Schwarz & Clore, 1996).

These guides do not arise out of thin air, however. Our present preferences are derived from those that served adaptive ends in the past. A tenet of evolutionary theory is that evolution builds gradually on what it has to work with at that moment; changes are slow and incremental (Allman, 2000). Knowledge gained at a lower level of blind selection—the short-cuts and other “good tricks” (Dennett, 1995) that consistently worked over our long-term evolutionary past—are fed upwards as a starting point and appear as a priori knowledge, the source of which we are unaware. Campbell (1974) called these “shortcut processes” because they save us (individually) from having to figure out from scratch which processes are helpful and which are dangerous.''

Movementl] Intention After Parietal Cortex Stimulation in Humans;
''Parietal and premotor cortex regions are serious contenders for bringing motor intentions and motor responses into awareness. We used electrical stimulation in seven patients undergoing awake brain surgery. Stimulating the right inferior parietal regions triggered a strong intention and desire to move the contralateral hand, arm, or foot, whereas stimulating the left inferior parietal region provoked the intention to move the lips and to talk. When stimulation intensity was increased in parietal areas, participants believed they had really performed these movements, although no electromyographic activity was detected. Stimulation of the premotor region triggered overt mouth and contralateral limb movements. Yet, patients firmly denied that they had moved. Conscious intention and motor awareness thus arise from increased parietal activity before movement execution.''

A parietal-premotor network for movement intention and motor awareness
''It is commonly assumed that we are conscious of our movements mainly because we can sense ourselves moving as ongoing peripheral information coming from our muscles and retina reaches the brain. Recent evidence, however, suggests that, contrary to common beliefs, conscious intention to move is independent of movement execution per se. We propose that during movement execution it is our initial intentions that we are mainly aware of. Furthermore, the experience of moving as a conscious act is associated with increased activity in a specific brain region: the posterior parietal cortex. We speculate that movement intention and awareness are generated and monitored in this region. We put forward a general framework of the cognitive and neural processes involved in movement intention and motor awareness.''

 

[untermensche]

This is the timing. This is the physics.

The mind decides to move the arm. The mind causes the brain to move the arm. The arm moves.

Decisions are a myth.
That is a post fact construct of the mind to make our behaviour understandable.

My decisions are no myth.

I make them based on facts in the world, not some inner programming.

My consciousness experiences ideas, not my brain.

Your ideas have no evidence to support them.

They are a strange modern religion.

 

[untermensche]

This is the timing. This is the physics.

The mind decides to move the arm. The mind causes the brain to move the arm. The arm moves.

Nope, you are missing whole orders of information processing prior to that experience. Your remarks implies that this all just appears ex nihilo in the 'mind' which is simply not true.

Preferences and Feelings as Unconscious Guides to the Present
''Evolution (as well as early learning and culture) influences our preferences and, through them, our tendencies to approach or avoid aspects of our environment. We are predisposed to prefer certain objects and aspects of our environment over others. We are often guided by our feelings, intuitions, and gut reactions, which prioritize the things that are important to do or attend to (Damasio, 1996; Schwarz & Clore, 1996).

These guides do not arise out of thin air, however. Our present preferences are derived from those that served adaptive ends in the past. A tenet of evolutionary theory is that evolution builds gradually on what it has to work with at that moment; changes are slow and incremental (Allman, 2000). Knowledge gained at a lower level of blind selection—the short-cuts and other “good tricks” (Dennett, 1995) that consistently worked over our long-term evolutionary past—are fed upwards as a starting point and appear as a priori knowledge, the source of which we are unaware. Campbell (1974) called these “shortcut processes” because they save us (individually) from having to figure out from scratch which processes are helpful and which are dangerous.''

Movementl] Intention After Parietal Cortex Stimulation in Humans;
''Parietal and premotor cortex regions are serious contenders for bringing motor intentions and motor responses into awareness. We used electrical stimulation in seven patients undergoing awake brain surgery. Stimulating the right inferior parietal regions triggered a strong intention and desire to move the contralateral hand, arm, or foot, whereas stimulating the left inferior parietal region provoked the intention to move the lips and to talk. When stimulation intensity was increased in parietal areas, participants believed they had really performed these movements, although no electromyographic activity was detected. Stimulation of the premotor region triggered overt mouth and contralateral limb movements. Yet, patients firmly denied that they had moved. Conscious intention and motor awareness thus arise from increased parietal activity before movement execution.''

A parietal-premotor network for movement intention and motor awareness
''It is commonly assumed that we are conscious of our movements mainly because we can sense ourselves moving as ongoing peripheral information coming from our muscles and retina reaches the brain. Recent evidence, however, suggests that, contrary to common beliefs, conscious intention to move is independent of movement execution per se. We propose that during movement execution it is our initial intentions that we are mainly aware of. Furthermore, the experience of moving as a conscious act is associated with increased activity in a specific brain region: the posterior parietal cortex. We speculate that movement intention and awareness are generated and monitored in this region. We put forward a general framework of the cognitive and neural processes involved in movement intention and motor awareness.''

The decision that I will buy a certain car because it has a good safety rating and good gas mileage is not something evolution could have ever "programmed" a brain to make.

The brain cannot make decisions like that.

Only a consciousness can.

 

[DBT]

Nope, you are missing whole orders of information processing prior to that experience. Your remarks implies that this all just appears ex nihilo in the 'mind' which is simply not true.

Preferences and Feelings as Unconscious Guides to the Present
''Evolution (as well as early learning and culture) influences our preferences and, through them, our tendencies to approach or avoid aspects of our environment. We are predisposed to prefer certain objects and aspects of our environment over others. We are often guided by our feelings, intuitions, and gut reactions, which prioritize the things that are important to do or attend to (Damasio, 1996; Schwarz & Clore, 1996).

These guides do not arise out of thin air, however. Our present preferences are derived from those that served adaptive ends in the past. A tenet of evolutionary theory is that evolution builds gradually on what it has to work with at that moment; changes are slow and incremental (Allman, 2000). Knowledge gained at a lower level of blind selection—the short-cuts and other “good tricks” (Dennett, 1995) that consistently worked over our long-term evolutionary past—are fed upwards as a starting point and appear as a priori knowledge, the source of which we are unaware. Campbell (1974) called these “shortcut processes” because they save us (individually) from having to figure out from scratch which processes are helpful and which are dangerous.''

Movementl] Intention After Parietal Cortex Stimulation in Humans;
''Parietal and premotor cortex regions are serious contenders for bringing motor intentions and motor responses into awareness. We used electrical stimulation in seven patients undergoing awake brain surgery. Stimulating the right inferior parietal regions triggered a strong intention and desire to move the contralateral hand, arm, or foot, whereas stimulating the left inferior parietal region provoked the intention to move the lips and to talk. When stimulation intensity was increased in parietal areas, participants believed they had really performed these movements, although no electromyographic activity was detected. Stimulation of the premotor region triggered overt mouth and contralateral limb movements. Yet, patients firmly denied that they had moved. Conscious intention and motor awareness thus arise from increased parietal activity before movement execution.''

A parietal-premotor network for movement intention and motor awareness
''It is commonly assumed that we are conscious of our movements mainly because we can sense ourselves moving as ongoing peripheral information coming from our muscles and retina reaches the brain. Recent evidence, however, suggests that, contrary to common beliefs, conscious intention to move is independent of movement execution per se. We propose that during movement execution it is our initial intentions that we are mainly aware of. Furthermore, the experience of moving as a conscious act is associated with increased activity in a specific brain region: the posterior parietal cortex. We speculate that movement intention and awareness are generated and monitored in this region. We put forward a general framework of the cognitive and neural processes involved in movement intention and motor awareness.''

The decision that I will buy a certain car because it has a good safety rating and good gas mileage is not something evolution could have ever "programmed" a brain to make.

The brain cannot make decisions like that.

Only a consciousness can.

Well isn't that freaking hilarious given that brains have evolved the means with which to acquire and process information in order to be able to respond to conditions within the environment, selecting options from a set of realizable alternatives based on a given set of criteria (making decisions). In the past, the benefits associated with going out to hunt bison as opposed to staying in the cave knapping flint today, it being wet and cold and there is still plenty of Jerky and nuts in the larder . In our time and place, our own decisions, the benefits of one model of car over another, etc

And it is glaringly obvious that you ignore all research and just assert your own beliefs.

 

[untermensche]

The decision that I will buy a certain car because it has a good safety rating and good gas mileage is not something evolution could have ever "programmed" a brain to make.

The brain cannot make decisions like that.

Only a consciousness can.

Well isn't that freaking hilarious given that brains have evolved the means with which to acquire and process information in order to be able to respond to conditions within the environment, selecting options from a set of realizable alternatives based on a given set of criteria (making decisions). In the past, the benefits associated with going out to hunt bison as opposed to staying in the cave knapping flint today, it being wet and cold and there is still plenty of Jerky and nuts in the larder . In our time and place, our own decisions, the benefits of one model of car over another, etc

And it is glaringly obvious that you ignore all research and just assert your own beliefs.

There is biological evolution and there is cultural evolution, the evolution of ideas.

You have no evidence the brain apart from the consciousness understands ideas.

You merely impart everything your consciousness knows and does to the brain. For no good reason. It is insanity. The brain creates the consciousness and is the slave of consciousness and most likely has no way to know what the consciousness is experiencing.

That which creates the sensation of an idea does not necessarily experience the idea.

You are like the primitive who imparts all the powers of their gods onto the stars.

You impart all the powers of the consciousness onto the dumb mechanical brain that creates it and is it's slave.

 

[fromderinside]

The decision that I will buy a certain car because it has a good safety rating and good gas mileage is not something evolution could have ever "programmed" a brain to make.

The brain cannot make decisions like that.

Only a consciousness can.

Back to Horace Barlow face detector thinking I see.