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Consciousness

That's amazing.

I could call it "magic" activity.

This cellular activity, we do not understand at all, that somehow results in the ability to have conscious experience.

The cells are doing something. Things are happening. We can measure the electrical activity of millions of cells and see that something is happening.

We can look at the metabolism of cells and see that something is happening.

We don't have a clue what specifically is happening that results in conscious experience however.

No, the amazing thing was your lament about the derailing of the thread. Yet never seeing the irony of your remark
 
Obviously not humans.

If you know anything about brain research you'll know which animals are acceptable model animals for brain research.

More fucking coyness.

You are the most coy so-called scientist I have ever run into.

What animal? I know not humans.

I gave the ways we can look at brain activity in humans when you chimed in with your nonsense.

EEG, PET scan, fMRI.

That is all we have and they all look at gross activity not functional activity.
 
I could call it "magic" activity.

This cellular activity, we do not understand at all, that somehow results in the ability to have conscious experience.

The cells are doing something. Things are happening. We can measure the electrical activity of millions of cells and see that something is happening.

We can look at the metabolism of cells and see that something is happening.

We don't have a clue what specifically is happening that results in conscious experience however.

No, the amazing thing was your lament about the derailing of the thread. Yet never seeing the irony of your remark

You have developed a thick cognitive dissonance to the important questions.

You do not even think the idea of understanding how cells create consciousness is important.

When it is the most important question.
 
EEG, ....That is all we have and they all look at gross activity not functional activity.


I used EEG on humans. We can now get much more localized analyses from these methods. You might remember I worked with Dr. Lavie when he began work in the US of penetration of REM and sleep cycles through wakefulness back in the early '70s.

Well, as yoi know, ... have mirror cells distributed through cortex and midbrain and they have a long history of scientists correlating their electrophysiology and neuroanatomy to that of humans. Don't hurt yourself making connections here.
 
EEG, ....That is all we have and they all look at gross activity not functional activity.


I used EEG on humans. We can now get much more localized analyses from these methods. You might remember I worked with Dr. Lavie when he began work in the US of penetration of REM and sleep cycles through wakefulness back in the early '70s.

Well, as yoi know, ... have mirror cells distributed through cortex and midbrain and they have a long history of scientists correlating their electrophysiology and neuroanatomy to that of humans. Don't hurt yourself making connections here.

Do you know what the word "function" means?

The functional physiology of the brain is HOW it does the things it does.

Not what it does.

Not the subjective reports.

Not where it happens.

HOW it happens.

Explaining that demonstrates understanding.
 
No, the amazing thing was your lament about the derailing of the thread. Yet never seeing the irony of your remark

You have developed a thick cognitive dissonance to the important questions.

You do not even think the idea of understanding how cells create consciousness is important.

When it is the most important question.


Sour grapes. You cannot describe your magical autonomous smart consciousness that operates within a ''dumb brain'' therefore your nose is perpetually out of joint. ;)
 
Oh, you mean if find out that a basilar membrane at any given point is only responsive to a limited frequency range and that relationship holds for the entire membrane and that frequencies that fall on those segments only generate signals to which inner hair cells embedded in the membrane respond to those frequencies at the auditory cortex, found by others ,to process those frequencies and those frequencies representations are arranged tonotopically as well and that attribute is true in all mammals that one can conclude sound is arranged tonotopically in the human brain. And further if those cortical cells when stimulated by a small current produce the sensation in the human observer corresponding to that frequency I can say there is a functional relationship between frequency of input and the frequency of response that is preserved within the human brain and is therefore tonotopically arranged. Why this is true is complex. The auditory system is functionally tonotopic. Not very satisfying is it.

Notice I didn't go too much into detail above. I just outlined the basic relationships to demonstrate a functionally relationship.

Now you want us to provide you with a description of function within the brain that includes all senses, all position input, all visceral function and complete analysis of all of these inputs into a conscious thought. No one has done that.

Yet for every input modality, every processing aspect every function we have defines there are descriptions just as complete at a surface level as was my little exercise with auditory tonotopic nature of auditory processing. In any detailed experiment demonstrating functional relationships of senses, motor, positional and most other capacities the brain processes information we have at least as detailed an understanding available to the college sophomore.

What you ask though is for a functional understanding of how all this is produced as thought. My simple answer to that is subvocal outputs, the product of language processing is, in essence, the experience of each thought, just as mapped representations at the cortex are the essence of experiencing a scene.

Of course this will not be satisfactory to you because you want a homunculus- like 'explanation' which is just about as reasonable as having faeries whispering thoughts from some magically create kingdom produced by the brain. Thoughts are excitation of emitting behaviors by normal nervous system processing information in more or less orderly arranged systems produced through the evolution developed.
 
You have developed a thick cognitive dissonance to the important questions.

You do not even think the idea of understanding how cells create consciousness is important.

When it is the most important question.


Sour grapes. You cannot describe your magical autonomous smart consciousness that operates within a ''dumb brain'' therefore your nose is perpetually out of joint. ;)

Just more dissonance.

You cannot even see the major problem that exists right before you.

You are completely blind to it.

The problem of explaining how the activity of cells results in conscious experience.
 
Oh, you mean if find out that a basilar membrane at any given point is only responsive to a limited frequency range and that relationship holds for the entire membrane and that frequencies that fall on those segments only generate signals to which inner hair cells embedded in the membrane respond to those frequencies at the auditory cortex, found by others ,to process those frequencies and those frequencies representations are arranged tonotopically as well and that attribute is true in all mammals that one can conclude sound is arranged tonotopically in the human brain. And further if those cortical cells when stimulated by a small current produce the sensation in the human observer corresponding to that frequency I can say there is a functional relationship between frequency of input and the frequency of response that is preserved within the human brain and is therefore tonotopically arranged. Why this is true is complex. The auditory system is functionally tonotopic. Not very satisfying is it...

You were looking at gross effects.

And preliminary work like this is important to someday possibly reach understandings about conscious experience.

And the work is going on. I am not condemning the work or the people doing it.

I am condemning the claims of some about what the state of understanding is.

You have not explained how anything related to conscious experience happens.

How is it I see the tree?

Not how does the brain deal with the information coming in.

How does the brain create what I experience?
 
Actually if you read my blurb you'll realize I'm only describe the functionality that the world puts on auditory processing in the brain. Although much is known of how speech is processed we don't know whether the phonemic processing the brain produces gives us those chunks we obviously use actually produces words, sentences, etc. We do know how words are broken up by processing frequency sweeps and on-off markers and we do know there are important roles played by high and low frequency signals within speech.

As I said it is motor articulation that provides images of speech we to which we have access for experience, just as spatial and frequency arrays provide us with scene material we report as experience, So at a gross level we know such are formed and made as outputs through muscle and neural activity groupings.

We also have a lot to say about somnolence, arousal, attending, and awareness processing structure and function, We also know of many association players, enough so that we can read whether one is deciding or has decided and to some extent we can know what they decide and how they are going to articulate or respond.

Much of our squirt drivers are well known, but even with some very fine grain understanding we have not been able to predict by such behavior what one is going to do, only whether one is ready or primed for use of known data.

It is stuff like this that I find advancing very rapidly, actually to the point we can build successful behavioral simulations based on the data at hand.

I've already pointed out some obvious players in is the information we access for experience such as ascending, descending neural communication and narrow and broad associative neural processing.

We know there are at least three clockable sets of chemical mechanics within individual neurons and neuron groups.

As early as the turn of the nineteenth century we have found and used indicators of neural information integration and response preparation. This knowledge is so streong that we can build very valid and reloable simulations of processing and task performance. In the seventies we broke through in speech recognition and production. True the best models are still numerical models but there are pretty good analytic models coming out now to conduct both speech recognition and speech production.

The same can be said for ambulatory and visual models.

It seems to me that clinical difficulties in using this information is one of cost rather than one of knowledge. There are solutions in aerospace and robotics that can be applied if there is enough interest to spend the money. But, as we all can see there is a lot of resistance to providing sufficient funding for such endeavors for other than the very famous or the extremely wealthy.

Apparently we care enough to save lives, but don't care enough to make the saved functional again.

Again, my 'explaining' is only in the information output the brain produces that is coherent and not in why this is so a=or how it is accessible as if there were an internal viewer. We know that which produces empathy is involved and we know we have many areas of the brain innervated with what has come to be known as mirror neurons. We know there are both ascending and cross modality arousing substrates and many believe the cross modality substrate is involved in experiencing.

If you read about  locus coeruleus you're sure to get a whiff of how conscious is mediated.

OK a lot of words. Not much about a place or brain aspect defining consciousness beyond what we know. Yes, a lot about information processing, motor control, arousal and awareness neurophysiology and neurochemistry and maybe a faint scent of what is involved in consciousness mechanics.

As for seeing a tree that's simple. That's visual and language processing articulated either via scene or vocalization mechanics or both. The brain is producing the experience and telling you through output mechanics what is it's content. Try viewing a pure visual situation with no requirement for acoustic participation. You'll find there is no tension in your throat. Yet if the scene has writing or a sound in it there will be that throat tension, maybe even to the extent of an experience of speaking.

Yeah, way more than necessary.
 
You have developed a thick cognitive dissonance to the important questions.

You do not even think the idea of understanding how cells create consciousness is important.

When it is the most important question.


Sour grapes. You cannot describe your magical autonomous smart consciousness that operates within a ''dumb brain'' therefore your nose is perpetually out of joint. ;)

Just more dissonance.

You cannot even see the major problem that exists right before you.

You are completely blind to it.

The problem of explaining how the activity of cells results in conscious experience.


We only need to know that they do. Which is well established. Understanding how is a work in progress.
 
Just more dissonance.

You cannot even see the major problem that exists right before you.

You are completely blind to it.

The problem of explaining how the activity of cells results in conscious experience.


We only need to know that they do. Which is well established. Understanding how is a work in progress.

Oh what easy work you give yourself.

You count a fraction of an explanation as a whole.

So easy when you don't really ever have to do anything practical.
 
We only need to know that they do. Which is well established. Understanding how is a work in progress.

Oh what easy work you give yourself.

You count a fraction of an explanation as a whole.

So easy when you don't really ever have to do anything practical.

No, that the brain is responsible for consciousness is well established. It is your assertions that are not only not established, but demolished by research and evidence...yet you keep asserting these absurd ideas, dumb brain, smart autonomous consciousness.
 
Oh what easy work you give yourself.

You count a fraction of an explanation as a whole.

So easy when you don't really ever have to do anything practical.

No, that the brain is responsible for consciousness is well established. It is your assertions that are not only not established, but demolished by research and evidence...yet you keep asserting these absurd ideas, dumb brain, smart autonomous consciousness.

You don't establish things by wishing they were established.

You establish them by explaining them.

Consciousness is understood when it is understood exactly how cells create it.

Not before.
 
No, that the brain is responsible for consciousness is well established. It is your assertions that are not only not established, but demolished by research and evidence...yet you keep asserting these absurd ideas, dumb brain, smart autonomous consciousness.

You don't establish things by wishing they were established.

You establish them by explaining them.

Consciousness is understood when it is understood exactly how cells create it.

Not before.

You seem to understand that cells create consciousness. And wonder at how this feeling of being conscious can arise from unconscious cells.

One "how" is by means of evolution. Biological evolution is deaf, dumb and blind. There is one simple rule: That which is able to replicate in the current environment does so while that which cannot replicate does not.
The survival of the fittest to survive.

The ability to plan ahead is so important that the human body devotes 20% of calories consumed to run the brain. (4% in politicians.)

Plant bodies have no brains.

It is interesting that sea squirts have a brain when they are looking for a place to live in the larval stage. When it decides where to settle down it no longer needs the expense of "looking for" and so "eats its own brain." "Eats" is not quite correct. It is simply a stage in development. Evolution is like that: need it or lose it. Cave fish lose their eyes. Humans lost their fur. Whales lost their legs.

But, of course, that is not the mechanism. Another "how" is chemistry. How neurons individually operate is known. There are incoming signals and an outgoing one. There are neurons that fire when there is "enough" input. There are neurons that fire repeatedly on no input and are suppressed by enough input.

A computer science perspective.
There are 16 two-input logic gates. A single kind of gate, the "not-and" can be used to implement the other 15 gates. Clearly a neuron can implement the not-and. Evolution is clever. It could build a general purpose digital computer if the benefit exceeds the cost.
It is plausible that consciousness is what it is like to be an on-board computer. A computer built by environmental selection.
 
You don't establish things by wishing they were established.

You establish them by explaining them.

Consciousness is understood when it is understood exactly how cells create it.

Not before.

You seem to understand that cells create consciousness.

It is a hypothesis, not anything proven.

When we understand how cells do it then we will understand it.

But right now we don't have the slightest clue how cells do it. So possibly more than cells are involved
 
No, that the brain is responsible for consciousness is well established. It is your assertions that are not only not established, but demolished by research and evidence...yet you keep asserting these absurd ideas, dumb brain, smart autonomous consciousness.

You don't establish things by wishing they were established.

You establish them by explaining them.

Consciousness is understood when it is understood exactly how cells create it.

Not before.


Take your own statement and apply your own claim of dumb brain with smart autonomous consciousness as the operator to that statement and see how absurd your objection appears to the objective reader. The irony, as considerable as it is, is probably the least of your many problems in logic and reason.
 
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