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Consciousness

Hilarious....never heard of involuntary movement? Motor neuron conditions? No? Obviously not, otherwise you wouldn't make these remarks.

Motor neuron conditions?

Like Stephen Hawking?

Not a lot of movement there.

What you said was: This idea that the body moves without the will directing it defies any observation. - which is patently false;


Introduction Involuntary Movements

Involuntary movements compose a group of uncontrolled movements that may manifest as a tremor, tic, myoclonic jerk, chorea, athetosis, dystonia or hemiballism.

Recognition of involuntary movements associated with hyperkinetic movement disorders is an important diagnostic skill. This page describes the diagnosis of the major categories of hyperkinetic movement disorders.

General Definitions

Tremor: Rhythmic oscillations caused by intermittent muscle contractions.
Tics: Paroxysmal, stereotyped muscle contractions, commonly suppressible, might be simple (single muscle group) or complex. Temporarily suppressible.
Myoclonus: Shock-like, arrhythmic twitches. Not suppressible.
Chorea: Dance-like, unpatterned movements, often approximate a purpose (e.g. adjusting clothes, checking a watch). Often rapid and may involve proximal or distal muscle groups.
Athetosis: Writhing movements, mostly of arms and hands. Often slow.
Dystonia: Sustained or repetitious muscular contractions, often produces abnormal posture.
Hemiballismus: wild, large-amplitude, flinging movements on one side of the body, commonly affecting proximal limb muscles but can also affect the trunk.

I am talking about productive movement not reflexive movement. A distinction only somebody who never had to do anything productive could miss.


Wrong again. Both motor action and consciousness necessarily require prior information processing...sensory input not being magically transformed into conscious experience, as you appear to believe.
 
T
I know that when a person has a stroke you need to engage their will to get them better.

You need to reattach their will to their body.

This idea that the body moves without the will directing it defies any observation.

hank you captain obvious. Such activity works because humans include some control over the  Autonomic nervous system. Think of how fight or flight works. What will be your next folk psychological myth, REM only at night?
 
Motor neuron conditions?

Like Stephen Hawking?

Not a lot of movement there.

What you said was: This idea that the body moves without the will directing it defies any observation. - which is patently false;


Introduction Involuntary Movements

Involuntary movements compose a group of uncontrolled movements that may manifest as a tremor, tic, myoclonic jerk, chorea, athetosis, dystonia or hemiballism.

Recognition of involuntary movements associated with hyperkinetic movement disorders is an important diagnostic skill. This page describes the diagnosis of the major categories of hyperkinetic movement disorders.

General Definitions

Tremor: Rhythmic oscillations caused by intermittent muscle contractions.
Tics: Paroxysmal, stereotyped muscle contractions, commonly suppressible, might be simple (single muscle group) or complex. Temporarily suppressible.
Myoclonus: Shock-like, arrhythmic twitches. Not suppressible.
Chorea: Dance-like, unpatterned movements, often approximate a purpose (e.g. adjusting clothes, checking a watch). Often rapid and may involve proximal or distal muscle groups.
Athetosis: Writhing movements, mostly of arms and hands. Often slow.
Dystonia: Sustained or repetitious muscular contractions, often produces abnormal posture.
Hemiballismus: wild, large-amplitude, flinging movements on one side of the body, commonly affecting proximal limb muscles but can also affect the trunk.

I am talking about productive movement not reflexive movement. A distinction only somebody who never had to do anything productive could miss.


Wrong again. Both motor action and consciousness necessarily require prior information processing...sensory input not being magically transformed into conscious experience, as you appear to believe.

You've never had to do anything useful. You live on bullshit.

Involuntary movement is not purposeful movement.

You think all movement is the same thing.

Because you have never had to do anything useful.

You can spew nonsense because your nonsense effects nothing.

Try to get a stroke patient better without engaging the will. Try to do it by stimulating involuntary movement.

You are a joke.
 
T
I know that when a person has a stroke you need to engage their will to get them better.

You need to reattach their will to their body.

This idea that the body moves without the will directing it defies any observation.

hank you captain obvious. Such activity works because humans include some control over the  Autonomic nervous system. Think of how fight or flight works. What will be your next folk psychological myth, REM only at night?

You were all set to tell me how advancements in the knowledge of brain activity have led to advancements in medical treatments.

You forgot to mention any however.

How many stoke patients have you worked with?

How many have you helped regain function?

Because when I was actually doing that I could have used some advancements. None came.

The brain and conscious movement is far more complicated then your half-baked hypotheses.
 
You have desperately thrown that out as some kind of answer before.

Stimulating the brain tells you what happens to a brain when it is artificially stimulated. It throws normal function off and creates an artificial situation and strange sensations that don't exist otherwise as the brain tries to make sense of abnormal signals.

It tells you nothing about what a brain is doing without the stimulation.

It tells you nothing about how the mind uses the brain to move the arm.

Something we can clearly experience everyday. Those of us that can voluntarily move.

We invented the word "voluntarily" for a reason.

Nothing desperate about posting quotes and links to actual research and results on motor action in relation to perception, the mechanisms, how actions are chosen and performed, evidence and analysis that's shows the error of your beliefs and claims, the actual desperation lies in you dismissing research and evidence with a few glib words, then reasserting your own unfounded beliefs as if nothing happened.

He caught us! We're so desperate that we are trying to use evidence to form conclusions, instead of starting with the conclusion and accepting or rejecting evidence based on whether or not it supports the conclusions that we already have, which apparently would be what we would do if we were more rational. ;)

Untermensche, you missed the part that the research proves that "voluntarily" doesn't mean what you or anyone else thinks it does. It's not just free will that is up for question, but more basic concepts like volition.
 
Are sleepwalkers "voluntarily" moving? Is it "productive" movement" Are they conscious? Do they have "will"?
 
T

hank you captain obvious. Such activity works because humans include some control over the  Autonomic nervous system. Think of how fight or flight works. What will be your next folk psychological myth, REM only at night?

You were all set to tell me how advancements in the knowledge of brain activity have led to advancements in medical treatments.

You forgot to mention any however.

How many stoke patients have you worked with?

How many have you helped regain function?

Because when I was actually doing that I could have used some advancements. None came.

The brain and conscious movement is far more complicated then your half-baked hypotheses.

Ah, so you've worked with stroke victims, therefore we should disregard the neuroscience research and opinions of neuroscientists in favor of your expert opinion?

I'm sorry, but the people who actually study this for a living will tell you that they don't actually know where volition nor the sensation of volition comes from nor even if volition is a thing.
 
Ah, so you've worked with stroke victims, therefore we should disregard the neuroscience research and opinions of neuroscientists in favor of your expert opinion?

I'm sorry, but the people who actually study this for a living will tell you that they don't actually know where volition nor the sensation of volition comes from nor even if volition is a thing.

The point was there have been no advancements in the treatment of stroke patients in the 40 years since I began as a physical therapist.

Therapy is exactly the same.

You try to reconnect the will to the body as the brain heals with repetitive exercise and practice. The only things you can work with are the will of the patient and the plasticity of the brain.

Neuroscience has not provided one thing to the process in at least the last 40 years.
 
Literally 1 Google Scholar search later...

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40141-014-0051-4

Applications of Brain–Machine Interface Systems in Stroke Recovery and Rehabilitation said:
Brain Machine Interface (BMI) Technologies

BMI systems infer the user’s intent from neural data acquired from the brain, and transform it into output variables to control screen cursors, prosthetic devices, assistive orthotic devices, etc., in real time. One of the first implementations of a brain-computer interface consisted of using an event-related potential (ERP) associated with the classical oddball paradigm to identify letters in the alphabet, which helped the user communicate through words [10]. Since then, the school of thought that primarily considered neural interfaces to be applicable only in the completely paralyzed and/or individuals who are “locked-in” and cannot communicate verbally has definitively changed, and BMIs are getting integrated into mainstream rehabilitation. The reasons for this are primarily: (a) ability to measure brain signals non-invasively that can be effectively transformed into control signals, using methods such as electroencephalography (EEG) [11, 12], magnetoencephalography (MEG) [13], and functional near-infrared spectroscopy (fNIRS) [14, 15]; (b) improvements in technology that allow relatively fast analysis of large-scale, multi-dimensional data sets; and (c) increased understanding of neuroplastic mechanisms of motor learning and adaptation [16, 17] and functional motor recovery [18], which has further catalyzed use of brain-derived neural signals in rehabilitative BMIs.

BMIs have the potential to greatly improve clinical rehabilitation regimens by using extant neurological signals to drive and enhance functional recovery by actively engaging the user in rehabilitation, while simultaneously allowing for monitoring and quantification of internal states and neural plasticity over time. Also, the process of learning to use the BMI, i.e., learning to control the device/perform the task at hand using neural “thought” signals is a process of cognitive-motor learning, which is of benefit in recruiting existing neuroplastic mechanisms. Besides, successful task performance is fed back in the loop, recruiting error-correcting and reward-related feedback mechanisms. Taken together, these recent BMI applications for training-induced plasticity have made it an important rehabilitative tool, rather than a mere substitutive tool for the severely impaired patients.

Clinician Benefits with Brain Machine Interfaces

Motivation is an important psychosocial factor that can greatly affect neurological rehabilitation outcomes [19]. Therefore, active user engagement and positive reinforcement provided through both neural signals as well as task goal accomplishment, e.g., using an upper limb orthotic device that allows a stroke patient to move a paretic arm to grasp an object, a task that can otherwise not be performed by the patient, can significantly enhance patient motivation. The impact of this on enhancing rehabilitation outcomes could be profound, and is generally underscored. Secondly, BMIs can allow physical therapists and other rehabilitation clinicians to have continuous access to neural monitoring during treatment. This allows for personalizing treatment to each individual based on his/her functional abilities at a level of granularity that is otherwise impossible. Most importantly, these neural markers can be used to guide changes in treatment parameters, i.e., increasing/decreasing task difficulty or challenges, as well as allowing for task modifications. In other words, neural data can be used for neurological rehabilitation in the same manner as VO2 max or electrocardiogram (EKG) is used for cardiac rehabilitation, i.e., as a window into the internal physiological state that informs the clinician to appropriately modify exercise levels. This can significantly help clinicians and patients alike by helping make treatment protocols personally adaptive, as well as minimizing injury due to fatigue.

Brain–Machine Interfaces in Stroke Rehabilitation

The use of BMIs in stroke neurorehabilitation has become popular in recent times, given their benefits of guiding and enhancing neuromotor learning. Neural control signals may be obtained for a BMI via implanted electrode arrays (including electrocorticography, i.e., ECoG) or through techniques that measure neural activity on the scalp directly (e.g., EEG and MEG) or indirectly (e.g., blood oxygenation levels through functional magnetic resonance imaging i.e., fMRI and fNIRS). For the purpose of this review, BMI techniques employing measurements of scalp neural activity are discussed, as this is non-invasive and more relevant to stroke rehabilitation.

In this context, mu-rhythm, i.e., 8–13 Hz oscillatory activity observed over the central sensory-motor scalp areas in EEG and MEG, has been found to be quite successful as a neural control signal for BMIs [13, 20, 21••, 22]. Event-related desynchronization (ERD) or reduction in amplitude of this oscillatory band activity in response to a stimulus/Go cue has been used to control the impaired upper limb orthotic devices with some success in stroke patients. Patients improved in achieving task successes over multiple training sessions [13], which further substantiated the notion that BMIs can recruit extant neuroplasticity in chronic stroke patients. More recently, a larger-scale controlled clinical study demonstrated that stroke patients with minimal hand function who received ERD-driven BMI training as an adjunct to physical therapy to control a hand-orthotic device showed functional improvements in Fugl–Meyer assessment scores, compared to those who received sham BMI training (non-neural control of orthosis) [21]. Furthermore, the functional improvements in these patients were also significantly correlated with hand electromyographic activity, thereby providing evidence of peripheral neuromuscular plasticity driven by BMI training. These findings provide great promise for the future of BMI use in clinical stroke rehabilitation. Further, since motor imagery is used by patients with paresis or paralysis in order to generate neural signals simulating movement in the brain, this provides an additional avenue to engage neuroplastic mechanisms in stroke patients [23].

BMIs can also be coupled with functional electrical stimulation (FES) in order to allow more intentional control of FES of relevant muscles. It is postulated that neurally driven FES can engage Hebbian mechanisms of associative learning and consequently increase synaptic plasticity. A recent study [24] has shown the feasibility of using mu-rhythm ERD to drive FES of the tibialis anterior (TA) in a stroke patient. Interestingly, the authors found increased EMG activity in the TA, along with increased dorsiflexion, following BMI-FES rather than FES alone. This is very promising, as improving TA muscle control and dorsiflexion range of motion (ROM) can significantly impact gait training in stroke patients and improve functional recovery.

Recently, BMI coupled with virtual reality (VR) environments have also gained popularity in the context of stroke rehabilitation. Virtual environments have been very useful to train functional upper limb pointing movements in stroke patients [25, 26, 27]. Therefore, adding a neural interface to VR training can help engage patients early on in the stages of functional recovery when volitional movement may be more limited. The benefits would include increased recruitment of cortical motor networks through motor imagery used to control the BMI, as well as engaging motor learning mechanisms through repetitive training. Researchers have developed and tested a prototypical VR system in healthy individuals that involves controlling a virtual ‘avatar’ using a motor-imagery based BMI [28]. The use of such BMI-based VR rehabilitation in early stages of stroke recovery could significantly alter the trajectory of functional recovery in patients, thereby enhancing quality of life and potentially reducing needs for long-term rehabilitation and associated costs.
 
A Google search?

So that is what you call rational discourse?

The issue was rehabilitation after a stroke.

I see no reference to it.

You clearly are far out of your element.

Stick with worthless statements that don't contradict and somehow do magic.
 
A Google search?

So that is what you call rational discourse?

The issue was rehabilitation after a stroke.

I see no reference to it.

You clearly are far out of your element.

Stick with worthless statements that don't contradict and somehow do magic.

Gotta love the reading comprehension fails.
 
A Google search?

So that is what you call rational discourse?

The issue was rehabilitation after a stroke.

I see no reference to it.

You clearly are far out of your element.

Stick with worthless statements that don't contradict and somehow do magic.

Gotta love the reading comprehension fails.

You didn't present an advancement in rehabilitation that occurs because we have a better understanding of brain function.

Your Google search gave you a technical advancement. An advancement in software.

Not an advancement in understanding of brain activity.

That you don't understand the difference is proof you have no no business here.
 
No goal shifting.

You folks just don't seem to be able to comprehend the difference between an advancement in technology and an advancement in the understanding of brain activity.

I do know the difference.
 
Really?

Try this on so you can readjust your inflated ego a bit. We now know that the brain reorganizes at the cortex and probably at mid-brain levels after loss or trauma and that knowledge is now being applied.

Rethinking stimulation of brain in stroke rehabilitation: Why higher-motor areas might be better alternatives for patients with greater impairments https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4440790/

and robotics have proven a boon to functional recovery for wounds and stroke.

Applications of Brain–Machine Interface Systems in Stroke Recovery and Rehabilitation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4122129/

So you "no change in 40 years" in in the circular file. Oh, and you've probably impacted by changes to stroke center based systems of treatment from the previous individual hospital and government site treatment systems.
 
Nobody is doing any of that.

It is not accepted practice.

No benefits have been demonstrated over traditional methods.

Therapists long for some advancements.

None have come in 40+ years.
 
Well this became national stroke educational policy around 2010

Guidelines for Adult Stroke Rehabilitation and Recovery: A Guideline for Healthcare Professionals From the American HeartAssociation/American Stroke Association https://www.aan.com/Guidelines/Home/GetGuidelineContent/744

If there were no changes in practices how do you account for a 38% reduction in stroke deaths between 2000 and 2010?

Your derail attempt ends here.
 
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