Consciousness

[untermensche]

I am not allowed to ask questions?

I am saying the number of days in the past had to be countable.

If somebody wants to make the positive claim that the number of days before yesterday is uncountable they have to prove it some way. They have to prove it is possible for an uncountable number of days to have occurred before yesterday.

yes. and the same applies to anyone foolhardy enough to say that an uncountable number of days cannot have occurred before yesterday.

so where is your proof?

Is it possible in theory for somebody to have written out all the fractions between zero and one, before yesterday?

I understand the limitations of human existence and do not need to be reminded of that. This is stipulating that a human could live as long as necessary.

 

[Kharakov]

It is impossible for time without beginning to have occurred before yesterday.

So you believe:

1) reality began (because it has to have begun for their to be a finite amount of time to have passed)
2) nothing existed before reality, not even something that could cause reality to exist, reality popped up out of something that couldn't cause anything since it didn't exist....


Both claims are bogus.

 

[fromderinside]

"and that's the way it is ... This is Walter Cronkite reporting"

 

[Subsymbolic]

I’m happy that there could be nothing before something and that the existence of time comes with the e

 

[untermensche]

It is impossible for time without beginning to have occurred before yesterday.

So you believe:

1) reality began (because it has to have begun for their to be a finite amount of time to have passed)
2) nothing existed before reality, not even something that could cause reality to exist, reality popped up out of something that couldn't cause anything since it didn't exist....


Both claims are bogus.

You are not answering the question.

If you do not address the question you are evading not debating.

It is possible for there to be something unlike all that can be observed in some way as the cause of all that can be observed in some way.

You cannot logically eliminate that possibility.

It is possible for all that can be observed in some way to be caused and to have a beginning.

What is impossible is for it to not have a beginning.

To not have a beginning is to never have existed.

What is also impossible is for there to have been infinite time before yesterday.

Just like it is impossible for some immortal being to have written out all the fractions between zero and one before yesterday.

 

[DolphinDynasty]

I read through some comments on the thread and find it rather mindboggling that none seem to have researched what the embodiment of psychologists/neuroscientists are actually studying with reference to consciousness, especially within how it forms.

We have evidence that awareness of our environment begins at or just after birth if the infant's Apgar and other tests related to brain and physical functions (including their limited sight and hearing until it advances as they age to about 8 years old when vision and hearing solidify if they are near optimal levels) are shown to be [resent....

External tests do not tell us what a consciousness is doing when it moves the arm in a planned manner.

They do not tell us what a consciousness is.

They tell a fraction of what a consciousness is capable of doing.

Nothing about what it is doing internally.

When those tests make it clear that it is a process of the brain then that defines what it is.

We can also test for which areas if the brain are active when a person moves their arm around. So again, it is a process of the brain. And because it is a process of the brain we can surmise that there are necessary electrical signals, through the use of an EEG, and necessary chemical components through a Chem panel test that are in evidence and as we know them to be driving forces within the body that have specific functions we can know things about consciousness.

I understand that this answer is not as detailed as some would like it to be. Okay. Go through the motions an actions of achieving enough credentials to research it in a repeatable testable manner and come back.

Because I'd be as interested to see those results as I am in going through my own and that of other medical personnel when it comes to the brain.

But anybody stating, to paraphrase, that because we do not know everything about consciousness therefore we know nothing as has been intimated in this section is just being silly.

 

[Subsymbolic]

What is impossible is for it to not have a beginning.

Why is that impossible? You keep making this assertion, but you still haven't argued for it.

I can't see how you can frame an argument for it not being a possibility. Of course, if it were true that it were impossible, rather than merely hard to imagine, then sure, there would be a finite number of days, but I can't see how you could prove it to be the case that it is.

 

[DolphinDynasty]

Thanks, DD, but it is not an accident that this thread is located in the metaphysics section of the forum.

Yeah I forgot what main archive this was posted in, jut saw Consciousness was being discussed and clicked lolz.

 

[beero1000]

I am not allowed to ask questions?

I am saying the number of days in the past had to be countable.

If somebody wants to make the positive claim that the number of days before yesterday is uncountable they have to prove it some way. They have to prove it is possible for an uncountable number of days to have occurred before yesterday.

yes. and the same applies to anyone foolhardy enough to say that an uncountable number of days cannot have occurred before yesterday.

so where is your proof?

Is it possible in theory for somebody to have written out all the fractions between zero and one, before yesterday?

I understand the limitations of human existence and do not need to be reminded of that. This is stipulating that a human could live as long as necessary.

Guess you still haven't grasped the distinction between cardinality and order type, huh?

 

[beero1000]

What is impossible is for it to not have a beginning.

Why is that impossible? You keep making this assertion, but you still haven't argued for it.

I can't see how you can frame an argument for it not being a possibility. Of course, if it were true that it were impossible, rather than merely hard to imagine, then sure, there would be a finite number of days, but I can't see how you could prove it to be the case that it is.

He's been making these assertions since at least 2014. Despite thousands of posts, no one has seen a valid (or even non-obviously flawed) argument for what he claims is trivially obvious. Never mind that it would solve a major open problem in cosmology, or that he's also claimed that the past being finite is logically impossible too...

 

[untermensche]

Is it possible in theory for somebody to have written out all the fractions between zero and one, before yesterday?

I understand the limitations of human existence and do not need to be reminded of that. This is stipulating that a human could live as long as necessary.

Guess you still haven't grasped the distinction between cardinality and order type, huh?

This has nothing to do with that.

This is about a real infinity, not an imagined one.

But if you think you can write out all the fractions between zero and one, go ahead. Please. I beg you.

Get back to me when you're finished.

 

[untermensche]

What is impossible is for it to not have a beginning.

Why is that impossible? You keep making this assertion, but you still haven't argued for it.

I can't see how you can frame an argument for it not being a possibility. Of course, if it were true that it were impossible, rather than merely hard to imagine, then sure, there would be a finite number of days, but I can't see how you could prove it to be the case that it is.

Is it possible to write out all the fractions between zero and one? Not some formula but every single one.

How you answer will tell you how possible it is for infinite time to have passed before any moment in time.

You will either answer correctly and should then instantly understand.

Or you will not answer correctly and will be trapped in some lost state until you do.

 

[beero1000]

Is it possible in theory for somebody to have written out all the fractions between zero and one, before yesterday?

I understand the limitations of human existence and do not need to be reminded of that. This is stipulating that a human could live as long as necessary.

Guess you still haven't grasped the distinction between cardinality and order type, huh?

This has nothing to do with that.

This is about a real infinity, not an imagined one.

But if you think you can write out all the fractions between zero and one, go ahead. Please. I beg you.

Get back to me when you're finished.

Well, now I know for sure that you still don't understand the difference between cardinality and order type.

Gotta love the whole 'my logic is real and your logic is imaginary' thing you've got going on. Must definitely make it easier to win arguments when you get to dictate which arguments are allowed.

 

[untermensche]

This has nothing to do with that.

This is about a real infinity, not an imagined one.

But if you think you can write out all the fractions between zero and one, go ahead. Please. I beg you.

Get back to me when you're finished.

Well, now I know for sure that you still don't understand the difference between cardinality and order type.

Gotta love the whole 'my logic is real and your logic is imaginary' thing you've got going on. Must definitely make it easier to win arguments when you get to dictate which arguments are allowed.

You dance a nice dance but you have no substance behind it.

Could a person possibly write out all the fractions between zero and one? Is it a task that could ever be finished? Even if you have all the time you want.

If you will not answer this question directly you are nobody to take seriously.

A simple answer to a simple question.

Your dancing got tiring years ago.

I ask simple questions and people refuse to answer them.

You make claims about what I do not understand without a shred of evidence it is so.

You are evading and doing nothing but giving bad opinions. That's all you have done for years and you somehow think you have ever addressed this.

 

[George S]

If you are saying that humans measuring it is the basis of time passing then you are really going to struggle to explain any change before we existed. Time is change, that's it.

So close. Time is the dimension along which change in space can occur.
We measure time against a naturally repeating frequency.

 

[beero1000]

This has nothing to do with that.

This is about a real infinity, not an imagined one.

But if you think you can write out all the fractions between zero and one, go ahead. Please. I beg you.

Get back to me when you're finished.

Well, now I know for sure that you still don't understand the difference between cardinality and order type.

Gotta love the whole 'my logic is real and your logic is imaginary' thing you've got going on. Must definitely make it easier to win arguments when you get to dictate which arguments are allowed.

You dance a nice dance but you have no substance behind it.

Could a person possibly write out all the fractions between zero and one? Is it a task that could ever be finished? Even if you have all the time you want.

If you will not answer this question directly you are nobody to take seriously.

A simple answer to a simple question.

Your dancing got tiring years ago.

No. An enumeration of rationals has order type ω, so it has no maximum element.

 

[George S]

What is impossible is for it to not have a beginning.

Why is that impossible? You keep making this assertion, but you still haven't argued for it.

I can't see how you can frame an argument for it not being a possibility. Of course, if it were true that it were impossible, rather than merely hard to imagine, then sure, there would be a finite number of days, but I can't see how you could prove it to be the case that it is.

Is it possible to write out all the fractions between zero and one? Not some formula but every single one.

How you answer will tell you how possible it is for infinite time to have passed before any moment in time.

You will either answer correctly and should then instantly understand.

Or you will not answer correctly and will be trapped in some lost state until you do.

Yes, it is possible to write out all the fractions and not miss a single one given unlimited time. Just as integers are countable given unlimited time.

It is possible for infinite time to exist before now if every moment has a predecessor.
It is possible for infinite time to exist after now if every moment has a successor.
​

 

[untermensche]

You dance a nice dance but you have no substance behind it.

Could a person possibly write out all the fractions between zero and one? Is it a task that could ever be finished? Even if you have all the time you want.

If you will not answer this question directly you are nobody to take seriously.

A simple answer to a simple question.

Your dancing got tiring years ago.

No. An enumeration of rationals has order type ω, so it has no maximum element.

However you want to dress up your "no". You are right.

And if we use writing out all the fractions as a model for infinite time it could not have been completed before any present moment.

It is impossible for infinite time to have completed before any present moment.

Only a finite amount of time could have completed.

 

[untermensche]

Is it possible to write out all the fractions between zero and one? Not some formula but every single one.

How you answer will tell you how possible it is for infinite time to have passed before any moment in time.

You will either answer correctly and should then instantly understand.

Or you will not answer correctly and will be trapped in some lost state until you do.

Yes, it is possible to write out all the fractions and not miss a single one given unlimited time. Just as integers are countable given unlimited time.

It is not possible to write them all out.

Ever. There is no end to them.

 

[beero1000]

You dance a nice dance but you have no substance behind it.

Could a person possibly write out all the fractions between zero and one? Is it a task that could ever be finished? Even if you have all the time you want.

If you will not answer this question directly you are nobody to take seriously.

A simple answer to a simple question.

Your dancing got tiring years ago.

No. An enumeration of rationals has order type ω, so it has no maximum element.

However you want to dress up your "no". You are right.

And if we use writing out all the fractions as a model for infinite time it could not have been completed before any present moment.

It is impossible for infinite time to have completed before any present moment.

Only a finite amount of time could have completed.

No, all that does is show that you're using a bad model for infinite time.

You are assuming that time in the past has to have the same order type as an enumeration. Enumerations have a minimum element, so using that model is assuming your conclusion. You are begging the question.