Consciousness

[humbleman]

Your argument that infinite time cannot exist is posited on the existence of an infinity of fractional numbers.

1/10, 1/100, 1/1000, 1/10,000...

Is it possible to write out every member of this series?

Time is real. It is not imaginary.

If time passed then it actually happened.

Is it possible for an infinite amount of time to have already happened?

That can be answered.

Sure, right.

If time is real, show me.

 

[humbleman]

Perhaps the most recognized philosophers were in the wrong track.

Before anything, any sensation, any perception, any thought... this is the main rule from which consciousness will come to be

I exist, therefore I think.

 

[bilby]

Perhaps the most recognized philosophers were in the wrong track.

Before anything, any sensation, any perception, any thought... this is the main rule from which consciousness will come to be

I exist, therefore I think.

I know lots of people who exist, but who have never given me the slightest reason to believe that they think.

 

[untermensche]

And I've already admitted that I don't have the answer to whether it's possible.

You're half way there.

If you can understand that saying infinite time occurred before some moment is the same as saying all the fractions between zero and one were written out before that moment, you know.

Writing hasn't existed for eternity, so that's not possible.

No shit!

But if there is time there can in theory be somebody writing.

It is called thinking about something.

How much time would it take to write out all the fractions between zero and one?

How much time would you need to finish?

Because saying that the time in the past was a completed infinity, the time in the past is completed, that is beyond dispute, is like saying somebody wrote out all the fractions between zero and one in it.

 

[untermensche]

Your argument that infinite time cannot exist is posited on the existence of an infinity of fractional numbers.

1/10, 1/100, 1/1000, 1/10,000...

Is it possible to write out every member of this series?

Time is real. It is not imaginary.

If time passed then it actually happened.

Is it possible for an infinite amount of time to have already happened?

That can be answered.

Sure, right.

If time is real, show me.

Time is a dimension, a freedom.

Without time there can be no change.

If there is change then there is time.

Is there change?

 

[DBT]

There is change but not necessarily a beginning to change because it is not yet known whether time, if time is a measurement of relative rates of change, had a beginning......which doesn't have a lot to do with the subject of this thread.

 

[untermensche]

There is change but not necessarily a beginning to change because it is not yet known whether time, if time is a measurement of relative rates of change, had a beginning......which doesn't have a lot to do with the subject of this thread.

Can there be a completed real infinity?

That is the issue.

Can there be completed "infinite change" in the past?

Or could the past only have a finite amount of change?

Can a real infinity complete?

It is easy to imagine there are infinite fractions between zero and one.

It is impossible to write them all out. No matter how much time you have. There is no end to them. The real infinity can never be completed even if the infinity can be imagined or modeled.

No real infinity that involved time could ever be completed. No matter how much time you had.

And there is one certainty.

All the time in the past has completed at every present moment. It could not have been infinite. Real infinities can never be completed. No matter how much time you have.

 

[DBT]

If there is no beginning to time, it follows that there is no beginning to relative rates of change...it is a possibility.

 

[bilby]

There is change but not necessarily a beginning to change because it is not yet known whether time, if time is a measurement of relative rates of change, had a beginning......which doesn't have a lot to do with the subject of this thread.

Can there be a completed real infinity?

That is the issue.

Can there be completed "infinite change" in the past?

Or could the past only have a finite amount of change?

Can a real infinity complete?

It is easy to imagine there are infinite fractions between zero and one.

It is impossible to write them all out. No matter how much time you have. There is no end to them. The real infinity can never be completed even if the infinity can be imagined.

No real infinity that involved time could ever be completed. No matter how much time you had.

And there is one certainty.

All the time in the past has completed at every present moment. It could not have been infinite.

There are infinite fractions between zero and one.

When you slide a counter one inch across a surface, are there some fractions of an inch it doesn't pass through?

Or is it impossible to slide anything a whole inch in a finite time?

Or are you simply wrong?

 

[untermensche]

There is change but not necessarily a beginning to change because it is not yet known whether time, if time is a measurement of relative rates of change, had a beginning......which doesn't have a lot to do with the subject of this thread.

Can there be a completed real infinity?

That is the issue.

Can there be completed "infinite change" in the past?

Or could the past only have a finite amount of change?

Can a real infinity complete?

It is easy to imagine there are infinite fractions between zero and one.

It is impossible to write them all out. No matter how much time you have. There is no end to them. The real infinity can never be completed even if the infinity can be imagined.

No real infinity that involved time could ever be completed. No matter how much time you had.

And there is one certainty.

All the time in the past has completed at every present moment. It could not have been infinite.

There are infinite fractions between zero and one.

When you slide a counter one inch across a surface, are there some fractions of an inch it doesn't pass through?

Or is it impossible to slide anything a whole inch in a finite time?

Or are you simply wrong?

How far would an infinitely small movement be?

Is that really a movement?

If there is a movement it has to be something greater than zero. A minimal movement has to be greater than zero for there to be movement.

What is completed is a finite number of minimal movements, not infinite movements.

You do not have an example of a completed real infinity.

There are none.

 

[Kharakov]

Writing hasn't existed for eternity, so that's not possible.

No shit!

But if there is time there can in theory be somebody writing.

No they're can't. That's an entirely unlikely hypothesis. Who is going to sit there writing fractions for eternity? Since they'd have to invent the concept of symbolic language before they could do so, it's not even possible that someone could have written stuff for eternity.

It is called thinking about something.

Don't hurt yourself.

How much time would it take to write out all the fractions between zero and one?

all the fractions between zero and one. Umm... all the fractions between zero and one. 3-5 seconds? I can't tell. I type as fast as I think sometimes, but when I pay attention, it's slower because I fumple. Quantum mechanics observer effect. If I observe myself I have an effect on the system.

Seriously, you couldn't even write out a really small fraction with a unit numerator in a human lifetime. 1/10||||10||||10||||10 is mooy big.

How much time would you need to finish?

Are you going to pester me with stupid questions the whole time I do it? What if I want to get hammered or smoke a cigar?

How about you say something like "how long would it take you to do an infinite amount of meth while fucking an infinite amount of strippers, drinking good scotch, while smoking smooth, sweet, cigars?"

Because saying that the time in the past was a completed infinity, the time in the past is completed, that is beyond dispute, is like saying somebody wrote out all the fractions between zero and one in it.

No it isn't, because nobody is going to write down all the fractions between zero and one. Nobody. Seriously. Nobody is going to write down a fraction smaller than the one I mentioned (unless this is a trick to occupy you for the next 10^100000^1000000^100000 years).


However, everyone, understands reality. It hasn't even started yet.

 

[untermensche]

But if there is time there can in theory be somebody writing.

No they're can't. That's an entirely unlikely hypothesis. Who is going to sit there writing fractions for eternity? Since they'd have to invent the concept of symbolic language before they could do so, it's not even possible that someone could have written stuff for eternity.

Do you understand what "in theory" means? It means you do not consider the physical limitations of a human and look only at what is possible if time exists.

If there is time there can in theory be somebody writing.

How much time would it take to write out all the fractions between zero and one?

all the fractions between zero and one. Umm... all the fractions between zero and one. 3-5 seconds? I can't tell. I type as fast as I think sometimes, but when I pay attention, it's slower because I fumple. Quantum mechanics observer effect. If I observe myself I have an effect on the system.

It is a question that has an answer.

If you do not know the answer you are done. You can move no further. Your thinking cannot advance.

 

[untermensche]

If there is no beginning to time, it follows that there is no beginning to relative rates of change...it is a possibility.

Is it possible for a real infinity to be completed?

Can somebody finish writing out all the fractions between zero and one?

Has all the time in the past completed at the present?

 

[Subsymbolic]

If you are saying that humans measuring it is the basis of time passing then you are really going to struggle to explain any change before we existed. Time is change, that's it.

So close. Time is the dimension along which change in space can occur.
We measure time against a naturally repeating frequency.

If you can point me to something that is happening beyond change in the organisation of what there is, then please do. As for time being a dimension in anything but the most metaphorical sense...

So, this naturally repeating frequency that we can measure time against? If you mean caesium 133, then that’s just conventionally picking on a particularly stable reciprocating change. Other timebases are available.

 

[Juma]

If you are saying that humans measuring it is the basis of time passing then you are really going to struggle to explain any change before we existed. Time is change, that's it.

So close. Time is the dimension along which change in space can occur.
We measure time against a naturally repeating frequency.

If you can point me to something that is happening beyond change in the organisation of what there is, then please do. As for time being a dimension in anything but the most metaphorical sense....

never heard of the theory of relativity? spacetime? time is definitely a dimension

 

[DBT]

If there is no beginning to time, it follows that there is no beginning to relative rates of change...it is a possibility.

Is it possible for a real infinity to be completed?

It may already be complete in the form Eternalism;

''Eternalism is a philosophical approach to the ontological nature of time, which takes the view that all points in time are equally real, as opposed to the presentist idea that only the present is real, and the growing block universe theory of time in which past and present are real while the future is not.''


(Phys.org) —''The universe may have existed forever, according to a new model that applies quantum correction terms to complement Einstein's theory of general relativity. The model may also account for dark matter and dark energy, resolving multiple problems at once.

The widely accepted age of the universe, as estimated by general relativity, is 13.8 billion years. In the beginning, everything in existence is thought to have occupied a single infinitely dense point, or singularity. Only after this point began to expand in a "Big Bang" did the universe officially begin.

Although the Big Bang singularity arises directly and unavoidably from the mathematics of general relativity, some scientists see it as problematic because the math can explain only what happened immediately after—not at or before—the singularity.

"The Big Bang singularity is the most serious problem of general relativity because the laws of physics appear to break down there," Ahmed Farag Ali at Benha University and the Zewail City of Science and Technology, both in Egypt, told Phys.org.''

 

[Juma]

I am not allowed to ask questions?

I am saying the number of days in the past had to be countable.

If somebody wants to make the positive claim that the number of days before yesterday is uncountable they have to prove it some way. They have to prove it is possible for an uncountable number of days to have occurred before yesterday.

yes. and the same applies to anyone foolhardy enough to say that an uncountable number of days cannot have occurred before yesterday.

so where is your proof?

Is it possible in theory for somebody to have written out all the fractions between zero and one, before yesterday?

I understand the limitations of human existence and do not need to be reminded of that. This is stipulating that a human could live as long as necessary.

definition: let An be the n:th fraction between zero and 0.
think of a man M1 that wrote down A0 two days ago.
now think of a man M2 that wrote down A0 two days ago and A1 three days ago.
now think of a man M3 that wrote down A0 two days ago, A1 three days ago and A2 four days ago.

if, as you did, I can stipulate a man that could live as long as necessary then there is no limit on this.

if M is possible then M(n+1) also possible and thus there are no upper limit on n.

 

[untermensche]

If there is no beginning to time, it follows that there is no beginning to relative rates of change...it is a possibility.

Is it possible for a real infinity to be completed?

It may already be complete in the form Eternalism;

''Eternalism is a philosophical approach to the ontological nature of time, which takes the view that all points in time are equally real, as opposed to the presentist idea that only the present is real, and the growing block universe theory of time in which past and present are real while the future is not.''


(Phys.org) —''The universe may have existed forever, according to a new model that applies quantum correction terms to complement Einstein's theory of general relativity. The model may also account for dark matter and dark energy, resolving multiple problems at once.

The widely accepted age of the universe, as estimated by general relativity, is 13.8 billion years. In the beginning, everything in existence is thought to have occupied a single infinitely dense point, or singularity. Only after this point began to expand in a "Big Bang" did the universe officially begin.

Although the Big Bang singularity arises directly and unavoidably from the mathematics of general relativity, some scientists see it as problematic because the math can explain only what happened immediately after—not at or before—the singularity.

"The Big Bang singularity is the most serious problem of general relativity because the laws of physics appear to break down there," Ahmed Farag Ali at Benha University and the Zewail City of Science and Technology, both in Egypt, told Phys.org.''

You have not answered the question.

Can a real infinity be completed?

Can you walk infinite miles?

Can you move infinitely fast?

Can you have an infinite amount of some item?

Can you write out all the fractions between zero and one?

 

[untermensche]

Is it possible in theory for somebody to have written out all the fractions between zero and one, before yesterday?

I understand the limitations of human existence and do not need to be reminded of that. This is stipulating that a human could live as long as necessary.

definition: let An be the n:th fraction between zero and 0.
think of a man M1 that wrote down A0 two days ago.
now think of a man M2 that wrote down A0 two days ago and A1 three days ago.
now think of a man M3 that wrote down A0 two days ago, A1 three days ago and A2 four days ago.

if, as you did, I can stipulate a man that could live as long as necessary then there is no limit on this.

if M is possible then M(n+1) also possible and thus there are no upper limit on n.

I didn't ask if it could be modeled.

I know infinities can be modeled. That is the only way they exist.

None can exist in reality.

I asked if a person could write out all the fractions between zero and one.

The correct answer is no. It could never happen. It is impossible.

There is no end to the number of fractions and writing them out could never end.

Just like it is impossible that infinite time completed at any present moment.

The idea of a real completed infinity is an absurdity.

 

[untermensche]

Some people talk of logical contradictions.

There is no bigger contraction than saying there is something that exists but never had a beginning to it's existence.

If something never had a beginning to it's existence it never existed. To say anything else is a contradiction. At least in the universe we inhabit.

To put forth magic as an answer to rational inquiry will create problems if those putting forth magic will not relent.

If those putting forth magic, something existing but never had a beginning to it's existence, continue year in and year out to put forth magic as their solution then problems can last for years.

I would like to see the placing of magic as answers eliminated. It is not rational or productive in any way.

This will not be answered by the production of the best magic. The best miracle.