Consciousness

[Juma]

I know what panspsychism is.
It was you that brought it up here as a solution to conciousness. So you will have to defend your position.

Panspsychism isn a weel defined theory of conc

No, I brought it up as a solution to Oldman's concerns about an issue that he has with the consciousness. Go back and look on page 441.

But that is what I stated: you brought up panschism.
(And if you want to refera specific post then you must specify post number, not page number since that depends on how you view the posts)

 

[ryan]

No, I brought it up as a solution to Oldman's concerns about an issue that he has with the consciousness. Go back and look on page 441.

But that is what I stated: you brought up panschism.
(And if you want to refera specific post then you must specify post number, not page number since that depends on how you view the posts)

If someone says to you that quantum mechanics is strange because it is like there are many worlds that branch off, you may just mention the many worlds theory interpretation whether you agree with it or not. That's all I did.

I admit I like panpsychism for the reason that it reduces the consciousness instead of allowing something to emerge beyond the parts that make it up. But I have not said that I think it is the ultimate and final explanation to the consciousness. Read post #445.

 

[DBT]

Consciousness is an inseparable part of the physical world. The external world effects consciousness because consciousness is a brain's means with which to interact with the external world (of course there is also unconscious response).

Does this consciousness affect the external world? If not, go to 1). If it does, go to 2).

It is the physical world.

It is an aspect of the physical world.

More specifically, it is an aspect of an electrochemically active brain...which itself is a physical structure within the physical word, all interacting with each other. Consciousness is what brain is doing. What brain is doing being determined by its own non chosen architecture (genetics/evolution).

 

[ryan]

Does this consciousness affect the external world? If not, go to 1). If it does, go to 2).

It is the physical world.

It is an aspect of the physical world.

More specifically, it is an aspect of an electrochemically active brain...which itself is a physical structure within the physical word, all interacting with each other. Consciousness is what brain is doing. What brain is doing being determined by its own non chosen architecture (genetics/evolution).

Please answer the question: does the consciousness you are talking about affect the external world?

 

[Juma]

But that is what I stated: you brought up panschism.
(And if you want to refera specific post then you must specify post number, not page number since that depends on how you view the posts)

If someone says to you that quantum mechanics is strange because it is like there are many worlds that branch off, you may just mention the many worlds theory interpretation whether you agree with it or not. That's all I did.

I admit I like panpsychism for the reason that it reduces the consciousness instead of allowing something to emerge beyond the parts that make it up. But I have not said that I think it is the ultimate and final explanation to the consciousness. Read post #445.

I dont have to since you once again proposes the panpsychism.
It solves nothing.
Think about it: if each particle has a bit of conciousness how does these tiny shards combine to our complex mind? These parts needs to interact somehow, and how come we only experience what the brain creates and not everything?

Panpsychism is another "god of the gaps" theory.

 

[DBT]

It is the physical world.

It is an aspect of the physical world.

More specifically, it is an aspect of an electrochemically active brain...which itself is a physical structure within the physical word, all interacting with each other. Consciousness is what brain is doing. What brain is doing being determined by its own non chosen architecture (genetics/evolution).

Please answer the question: does the consciousness you are talking about affect the external world?

Your question is wrong. Consciousness itself is a mental representation of the external world and self. Your question appears to imply that consciousness is an entity in its own right, that it has some form of autonomy from the brain and has its own ability to effect the external world. Consciousness is whatever the brain is doing in response to the external world, including the use of motor actions, speech, etc...which in turn effects the external world.

 

[ryan]

If someone says to you that quantum mechanics is strange because it is like there are many worlds that branch off, you may just mention the many worlds theory interpretation whether you agree with it or not. That's all I did.

I admit I like panpsychism for the reason that it reduces the consciousness instead of allowing something to emerge beyond the parts that make it up. But I have not said that I think it is the ultimate and final explanation to the consciousness. Read post #445.

I dont have to since you once again proposes the panpsychism.
It solves nothing.
Think about it: if each particle has a bit of conciousness how does these tiny shards combine to our complex mind? These parts needs to interact somehow, and how come we only experience what the brain creates and not everything?

Panpsychism is another "god of the gaps" theory.

Panpsychism is a philosophy based on reductionist reasoning. Science points to reductionism.

 

[Juma]

I dont have to since you once again proposes the panpsychism.
It solves nothing.
Think about it: if each particle has a bit of conciousness how does these tiny shards combine to our complex mind? These parts needs to interact somehow, and how come we only experience what the brain creates and not everything?

Panpsychism is another "god of the gaps" theory.

Panpsychism is a philosophy based on reductionist reasoning. Science points to reductionism.

That makes as much sense as thinking that memory is explained by that each particle rememembers a tiny part of the memory...
Mind isnt reducable in that way. It is a property of the system, not the parts.

 

[ryan]

Please answer the question: does the consciousness you are talking about affect the external world?

Your question is wrong. Consciousness itself is a mental representation of the external world and self. Your question appears to imply that consciousness is an entity in its own right, that it has some form of autonomy from the brain and has its own ability to effect the external world. Consciousness is whatever the brain is doing in response to the external world, including the use of motor actions, speech, etc...which in turn effects the external world.

Then your answer is no. So, let's discuss it without autonomy.

Now, do you see why the consciousness is different than anything else physical? Unless you assume panpsychism, the substance of it is not conserved; it comes from nothing (assuming it didn't exist before the brain). It exists in its own right but for the purposes of this conversation it conforms to whatever the brain is doing.

 

[ryan]

Panpsychism is a philosophy based on reductionist reasoning. Science points to reductionism.

That as much sense as thinking that memory is explained by that each particle rememembers a tiny part of the memory...
Mind isnt reducable in that way. It is a property of the system, not the parts.

Again, I don't think panpsychism is the final answer either.

 

[Juma]

Then why do you bring it up again and again?

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Your question is wrong. Consciousness itself is a mental representation of the external world and self. Your question appears to imply that consciousness is an entity in its own right, that it has some form of autonomy from the brain and has its own ability to effect the external world. Consciousness is whatever the brain is doing in response to the external world, including the use of motor actions, speech, etc...which in turn effects the external world.

Then your answer is no. So, let's discuss it without autonomy.

Now, do you see why the consciousness is different than anything else physical? Unless you assume panpsychism, the substance of it is not conserved; it comes from nothing (assuming it didn't exist before the brain). It exists in its own right but for the purposes of this conversation it conforms to whatever the brain is doing.

Of course conciousness is not preserved. Why should it be?

 

[ryan]

Then why do you bring it up again and again?

- - - Updated - - -

Then your answer is no. So, let's discuss it without autonomy.

Now, do you see why the consciousness is different than anything else physical? Unless you assume panpsychism, the substance of it is not conserved; it comes from nothing (assuming it didn't exist before the brain). It exists in its own right but for the purposes of this conversation it conforms to whatever the brain is doing.

Of course conciousness is not preserved. Why should it be?

Conserved, because everything else is conserved. Things just don't appear and disappear like the consciousness seems to do.

 

[Juma]

Then why do you bring it up again and again?

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Of course conciousness is not preserved. Why should it be?

Conserved, because everything else is conserved. Things just don't appear and disappear like the consciousness seems to do.

most things appear and disappear. Galaxies, stars, planets, continets, species, humans.
Why would conciousness be different?

 

[untermensche]

Conserved, because everything else is conserved. Things just don't appear and disappear like the consciousness seems to do.

The picture on a television appears and disappears.

Something appearing and disappearing is a sign of something that arises because of a specific "process" that can temporarily change and then return.

It fits in perfectly with the opinion that consciousness is generated by some specific brain activity.

And in sleep the activity changes, so consciousness temporarily goes away.

And when the activity stops consciousness goes away forever.

 

[fromderinside]

My I thrust my hand loosely closed upward and opened the hand whilst I looked up at my hand. What did you do? Why you looked up expecting to see the object I had in my hand flying upward. Sorry. Nothing there. Same with consciousness. It comes and goes with little other than circumstantial evidence it ever existed. It is nothing beyond what surrounding events suggest. As Wegner wrote it is an illusion.

 

[ryan]

Unter, Juma matter does not disapear; it just changes position. Energy is also conserved; it doesn't disappear either. That goes for planets and T.V.'s .

 

[DBT]

Your question is wrong. Consciousness itself is a mental representation of the external world and self. Your question appears to imply that consciousness is an entity in its own right, that it has some form of autonomy from the brain and has its own ability to effect the external world. Consciousness is whatever the brain is doing in response to the external world, including the use of motor actions, speech, etc...which in turn effects the external world.

Then your answer is no. So, let's discuss it without autonomy.

Now, do you see why the consciousness is different than anything else physical? Unless you assume panpsychism, the substance of it is not conserved; it comes from nothing (assuming it didn't exist before the brain). It exists in its own right but for the purposes of this conversation it conforms to whatever the brain is doing.

Well, it's not exactly no. As I've said several times, the brain responds to the objects and events of the external world by means of its conscious representation of the objects and events of the external world.

Which makes consciousness a useful means of interacting with the external world. After all, that is its evolutionary role.

 

[Juma]

Unter, Juma matter does not disapear; it just changes position. Energy is also conserved; it doesn't disappear either. That goes for planets and T.V.'s .

Yes? The mind is a PROCESS. A stone falls. When it hits the ground the it bounces and then halts. The fall has stopped. The fall is a PROCESS.

If conciousness is something then it has something to do with TIME.

 

[ryan]

Then your answer is no. So, let's discuss it without autonomy.

Now, do you see why the consciousness is different than anything else physical? Unless you assume panpsychism, the substance of it is not conserved; it comes from nothing (assuming it didn't exist before the brain). It exists in its own right but for the purposes of this conversation it conforms to whatever the brain is doing.

Well, it's not exactly no. As I've said several times, the brain responds to the objects and events of the external world by means of its conscious representation of the objects and events of the external world.

Which makes consciousness a useful means of interacting with the external world. After all, that is its evolutionary role.

Hmmm, now this last part seems like the answer to my question is yes.

 

[ryan]

Unter, Juma matter does not disapear; it just changes position. Energy is also conserved; it doesn't disappear either. That goes for planets and T.V.'s .

Yes? The mind is a PROCESS. A stone falls. When it hits the ground the it bounces and then halts. The fall has stopped. The fall is a PROCESS.

If the mind is just a process, then why do you think there is so much discussion about it? I mean nobody questions the possible duality of a heart or a hand. 1000's of years and you have the answer which is that the mind is actually just a process. That's like saying, ah ha, skin is actually skin!