Consciousness

[WAB]

ryan I have a suggestion but it will cost some money. What you need to do is get your own MRI machine...

["Skip a little, brother..."]

...Really you can't lose unless you don't try.

Hey another1, you mind maybe I give this a shot, I mean, a try? Sounds like fun. Once I get a handle on things I should be coming, I mean falling, into a lot of money. Soon, looks like. My books are selling like hotcakes. Oh, alright, so one person bought one of my books on Kindle for 99 cents. But hey, this obviously means I'm the next Stephen King. I mean, look, it only took me five years to sell that one download. Imagine what the next few months have in store for me!

 

[Juma]

Does not affect matter? Then how would it result in agency?

Panpsychism doesn't imply agency.

So your conciousness doesnt act? What bullshit is this?

 

[OLDMAN]

So Einstein got one wrong did he? Or was Schroeder simply pointing out a paradox? Everything that you can conceive can be demonstrated in the physical world...consciousness is simply an awareness of our surroundings. It is a product of the brain, an interpretation of information received by the brain. All creatures do it, it doesn't have to be the same interpretation to be an effective tool for regeneration.

 

[ryan]

Panpsychism doesn't imply agency.

So your conciousness doesnt act? What bullshit is this?

I guess you will just have to learn about it for yourself. Or do you just want everyone to hold your hand and walk you through philosophies of the consciousness?

 

[untermensche]

No, I'm not missing anything, Ryan. I have already pointed out numerous times that we do not know how the brain forms its internal virtual representation of information....this being ''the hard problem''

I don't think there is an easy problem. Creating the experience of sound to represent some external event in the world is not an easy problem.

But it is not the representations that pose the greatest problem.

It is the consciousness that experiences them. Experiences many things at once.

People look and look and can't find that in the brain.

The brain working on representations is much more evident.

 

[ryan]

So Einstein got one wrong did he?

dead wrong

Or was Schroeder simply pointing out a paradox?

yes

Everything that you can conceive can be demonstrated in the physical world...consciousness is simply an awareness of our surroundings. It is a product of the brain, an interpretation of information received by the brain. All creatures do it, it doesn't have to be the same interpretation to be an effective tool for regeneration.

I have to be weary when someone on the internet says "consciousness is simply ...". I don't know you, but from my point of view, saying that looks really really bad.

 

[untermensche]

Don't like this idea Panpsychism.

An awareness of external features clearly gives an animal with even a measure of it a survival advantage.

Consciousness clearly grants a survival advantage.

It serves a purpose in living things trying to survive.

It serves no purpose for a sun to have vision or thoughts or awareness. It isn't a living thing. Not engaged in a struggle for survival. It is not immortal but there is nothing it can do to extend it's life.

One has to be very careful not to simply place features of ourselves onto the universe where they have no place.

 

[DBT]

No, I'm not missing anything, Ryan. I have already pointed out numerous times that we do not know how the brain forms its internal virtual representation of information....this being ''the hard problem''

As I've already said; the fact that we don't know how the brain forms conscious experience doesn't mean that we have nothing in the way of evidence that the brain does indeed form consciousness even though we don't know how: consciousness being composed of vision, hearing, thoughts, etc, etc. etc, all being related to the activity of sensory and processing centres/structures/lobes and organs.

Okay, then we are in agreement about what the "problem" is.

Now, my issue is that if this inner-experience property of matter/brain has no effect on the physical world, then how can we call it physical? There seems to be only a one-way causality there.

Consciousness is an inseparable part of the physical world. The external world effects consciousness because consciousness is a brain's means with which to interact with the external world (of course there is also unconscious response).

 

[DBT]

People look and look and can't find that in the brain.

What is found is electrochemiical activity, being related to reports of what people are thinking and feeling, being related to that activity and brain regions.

We don't yet have the tools to go deeper, which doesn't mean we have to adopt magical explanations that have no evidence.

The brain working on representations is much more evident.

What does that even mean.

 

[untermensche]

What is found is electrochemiical activity, being related to reports of what people are thinking and feeling, being related to that activity and brain regions.

We don't yet have the tools to go deeper, which doesn't mean we have to adopt magical explanations that have no evidence.

The explanation is going to appear as magic.

It is something we don't understand now.

The brain working on representations is much more evident.

What does that even mean.

You can follow something like vision as it enters the brain and the information is divided and sent to specialized areas.

You can see the brain is doing something with the information.

Much more evident that finding some activity that is constant when awake creating the "thing that experiences", consciousness.

 

[DBT]

The explanation is going to appear as magic.

It is something we don't understand now.

Regarding consciousness, tere is a distinction between what we don't know now and what we do know now. It's not as if nothing is known about consciousness....something we are experiencing right now; vision, hearing, smell, touch, feelings thoughts being amongst the various features of what we call 'consciousness' - all of which we know is related to specific organs and brain structures. Hearing is not related to the eyes, eyes don't convey information about smell, and so on.

So we know something. That these attributes or features of consciousness necessarily require functional organs, eyes, ears, etc, transmitting information to related processing centres; visual cortex, auditory cortex and so on

Which in no way, shape or form paints a picture of the brain as a receiver of some inexplicable entity called consciousness or 'mind] from elsewhere.

You can follow something like vision as it enters the brain and the information is divided and sent to specialized areas.

You can see the brain is doing something with the information.

Much more evident that finding some activity that is constant when awake creating the "thing that experiences", consciousness.

Can't make any sense of your explanation, sorry. Maybe you can explain it more clearly?

 

[Juma]

So your conciousness doesnt act? What bullshit is this?

I guess you will just have to learn about it for yourself. Or do you just want everyone to hold your hand and walk you through philosophies of the consciousness?

I know what panspsychism is.
It was you that brought it up here as a solution to conciousness. So you will have to defend your position.

Panspsychism isn a weel defined theory of conc

 

[OLDMAN]

dead wrong

Or was Schroeder simply pointing out a paradox?

yes

Everything that you can conceive can be demonstrated in the physical world...consciousness is simply an awareness of our surroundings. It is a product of the brain, an interpretation of information received by the brain. All creatures do it, it doesn't have to be the same interpretation to be an effective tool for regeneration.

I have to be weary when someone on the internet says "consciousness is simply ...". I don't know you, but from my point of view, saying that looks really really bad.

This is the same argument we get from Christians who place god outside of time and space. No, we can't argue magic, because it is magic. We have to deal with what we know in reality. and the evidence we have in reality. If it doesn't answer all your questions. then that is all it fails to do. It is still the only answer that the evidence presents.

I had the same problem with the concept of "me", Why was I here and not over there? Why hadn't I been for billions of years and then suddenly here I am. What was the composition that made me...me?

Both our lives and the experience of our lives are unique.
But neither living or experiencing life is unique. There are 7 billion people.
The life experience is probably more similar for everyone than we can realize. But we have no way of truly knowing
The individual experience that is necessary because we are different vessels.
The brain gives us many false illusions both of control and free will, both products of how it operates. Consciousness is also a mysterious product of brain function. Like the illusion of "me" as a singular, special, person.

 

[untermensche]

Regarding consciousness, tere is a distinction between what we don't know now and what we do know now. It's not as if nothing is known about consciousness....something we are experiencing right now; vision, hearing, smell, touch, feelings thoughts being amongst the various features of what we call 'consciousness' - all of which we know is related to specific organs and brain structures. Hearing is not related to the eyes, eyes don't convey information about smell, and so on.

Actually ALL we know of those things are our conscious experience of them.

We have no idea how the brain creates a representation of any of it.

And no idea how a brain creates something, consciousness, capable of having an uninterrupted, except for sleep, lifetime of experiences.

You can follow something like vision as it enters the brain and the information is divided and sent to specialized areas.

You can see the brain is doing something with the information.

Much more evident that finding some activity that is constant when awake creating the "thing that experiences", consciousness.

Can't make any sense of your explanation, sorry. Maybe you can explain it more clearly?

What happens in the brain after it receives "information" from the optic nerves after the cells in the retina have been stimulated?

Where do we see activity? One place or several places?

This splitting of information and working on it in several areas is the brain doing something with the information. One thing we know the brain does is create a representation of the "information" for consciousness to experience. We have no idea if the brain does anything else with the information.

 

[ryan]

Don't like this idea Panpsychism.

An awareness of external features clearly gives an animal with even a measure of it a survival advantage.

Consciousness clearly grants a survival advantage.

It serves a purpose in living things trying to survive.

It serves no purpose for a sun to have vision or thoughts or awareness. It isn't a living thing. Not engaged in a struggle for survival. It is not immortal but there is nothing it can do to extend it's life.

One has to be very careful not to simply place features of ourselves onto the universe where they have no place.

I am not advocating panpsychism; I just brought it up to Oldman because it dealt with one of his concerns about the consciousness.

But anyways, why would you think that panpsychism would mean that systems nothing like humans would have the same kinds of human experiences? The sun as a whole may not even have an experience in panpsychism, only zillions of individual experiences of its particles. And if the sun did have an experience, it would be one that we could not imagine, in panpsychism. An ant would have a more similar experience to us than the sun.

 

[ryan]

Okay, then we are in agreement about what the "problem" is.

Now, my issue is that if this inner-experience property of matter/brain has no effect on the physical world, then how can we call it physical? There seems to be only a one-way causality there.

Consciousness is an inseparable part of the physical world. The external world effects consciousness because consciousness is a brain's means with which to interact with the external world (of course there is also unconscious response).

Does this consciousness affect the external world? If not, go to 1). If it does, go to 2).

1) So there is something in this universe that can be affected, but cannot affect anything else. Don't you think that is different from what it means to be physical? After all, everything fundamental in physics that I know of is in a category that affects its own category or a different one.

2) This would mean that there is some kind of "mental matter" that is not conserved or transforms the properties of brain matter to have its own properties. In either case it would have to be added to the Standard model somehow.

 

[ryan]

I guess you will just have to learn about it for yourself. Or do you just want everyone to hold your hand and walk you through philosophies of the consciousness?

I know what panspsychism is.
It was you that brought it up here as a solution to conciousness. So you will have to defend your position.

Panspsychism isn a weel defined theory of conc

No, I brought it up as a solution to Oldman's concerns about an issue that he has with the consciousness. Go back and look on page 441.

 

[ryan]

dead wrong



yes

Everything that you can conceive can be demonstrated in the physical world...consciousness is simply an awareness of our surroundings. It is a product of the brain, an interpretation of information received by the brain. All creatures do it, it doesn't have to be the same interpretation to be an effective tool for regeneration.

I have to be weary when someone on the internet says "consciousness is simply ...". I don't know you, but from my point of view, saying that looks really really bad.

This is the same argument we get from Christians who place god outside of time and space. No, we can't argue magic, because it is magic. We have to deal with what we know in reality. and the evidence we have in reality. If it doesn't answer all your questions. then that is all it fails to do. It is still the only answer that the evidence presents.

I had the same problem with the concept of "me", Why was I here and not over there? Why hadn't I been for billions of years and then suddenly here I am. What was the composition that made me...me?

Both our lives and the experience of our lives are unique.
But neither living or experiencing life is unique. There are 7 billion people.
The life experience is probably more similar for everyone than we can realize. But we have no way of truly knowing
The individual experience that is necessary because we are different vessels.
The brain gives us many false illusions both of control and free will, both products of how it operates. Consciousness is also a mysterious product of brain function. Like the illusion of "me" as a singular, special, person.

But your singular consciousness is not an illusion. The singular consciousness is fundamental to any knowledge, logic, understandings etc.

Let me attempt a proof by contradiction. Assume that the unity of the consciousness is an illusion. But the very statement "assume that the unity of the consciousness is an illusion" would not be unified as a coherent thought, so I can't even start the proof by contradiction without instantly contradicting the assumption. The very sentence would just be particles floating in the universe not having anything to do with each other or anything else.

In other words, we must have unity. Even to be incorrect about unity means that we would have needed unity to be wrong about it. We must have unity.

 

[OLDMAN]

dead wrong



yes

Everything that you can conceive can be demonstrated in the physical world...consciousness is simply an awareness of our surroundings. It is a product of the brain, an interpretation of information received by the brain. All creatures do it, it doesn't have to be the same interpretation to be an effective tool for regeneration.

I have to be weary when someone on the internet says "consciousness is simply ...". I don't know you, but from my point of view, saying that looks really really bad.

This is the same argument we get from Christians who place god outside of time and space. No, we can't argue magic, because it is magic. We have to deal with what we know in reality. and the evidence we have in reality. If it doesn't answer all your questions. then that is all it fails to do. It is still the only answer that the evidence presents.

I had the same problem with the concept of "me", Why was I here and not over there? Why hadn't I been for billions of years and then suddenly here I am. What was the composition that made me...me?

Both our lives and the experience of our lives are unique.
But neither living or experiencing life is unique. There are 7 billion people.
The life experience is probably more similar for everyone than we can realize. But we have no way of truly knowing
The individual experience that is necessary because we are different vessels.
The brain gives us many false illusions both of control and free will, both products of how it operates. Consciousness is also a mysterious product of brain function. Like the illusion of "me" as a singular, special, person.

But your singular consciousness is not an illusion. The singular consciousness is fundamental to any knowledge, logic, understandings etc.

Let me attempt a proof by contradiction. Assume that the unity of the consciousness is an illusion. But the very statement "assume that the unity of the consciousness is an illusion" would not be unified as a coherent thought, so I can't even start the proof by contradiction without instantly contradicting the assumption. The very sentence would just be particles floating in the universe not having anything to do with each other or anything else.

In other words, we must have unity. Even to be incorrect about unity means that we would have needed unity to be wrong about it. We must have unity.

The illusion of consciousness is that it is something more than just more information. The brain is animal matter, it uses information to survive. The ability to form awareness of the big picture, or imagine things that may or may not be, is a great survival tool. That connecting the dots of imputs and memory into a bigger picture from start to finish is consciousness. But it is simply more information that the brain draws from it's memory cells without volition.

 

[ryan]

The illusion of consciousness is that it is really just more information. The brain is matter, it uses information to survive. The ability to form awareness of the big picture, is a great survival tool.

"Survival tool"? We do what we do because of much more fundamental reasons. If large complex systems had some kind of collectively emergent ability above and beyond what its parts are doing to help it "survive", then we would have an even larger problem (in fact entanglement can be such a system with truly emergent effects, but nobody wants to accept entanglement as an obvious explanation to the unity problem - yet).

This concerns levels much lower than evolutionary science.

That connecting the dots of imputs and memory is into a bigger picture from start to finish is consciousness. But it is simply more information.

Yes, it's the unity problem of consciousness, but what is the difference if you call it "more information" or as you said, "Like the illusion of "me" as a singular, special, person"?