Consciousness

[DBT]

The brain is physical. Physical neural web networks architecture, physical chemical transmitters, physical electrical signal signals, physical updates of information streaming from the senses to the processing centres, physical integration of information and so on, consciousness being effected, altered, corrupted, distorted or destroyed by physical conditions within the electrochemical brain....none of which even suggests non material consciousness being tapped into by a 'brain/receiver of 'universal consciousness.

Consciousness in form and function is specific to individual brains and brain states from moment to moment while a brain is active consciously.

I don't think it makes sense to move on unless you understand why nothing else physical matters other than its fundamental components, and the states and locations of them.

We can say a diamond is all sorts of things, but all that really matters and necessary to leave out redundant information is the kind, state and number of particles that compose it and exactly where they exist in a 3d matrix. Calling the diamond shinny, expensive, sharp, dense, etc. are all redundant qualities/properties. These are extrinsic properties that our brains give to the diamond. The necessary information is its intrinsic properties, and all there truly is.

Are you of the belief that "diamondness" exists as a whole entity in its own right as well as its fundamental locations and states of the parts, or would you say that the diamond is really just its fundamental parts and its locations and states of the parts?

I don't see how this relates to anything I have said.

But consciousness is something else entirely. Its properties are simply different than any configuration of properties of the Standard model. The point is that there is no reason that has been found within the Standard model to explain what the consciousness is or why it exists. There is, however entanglement that seems to truly unify matter, and yes, "seems" is all even science says.

You don't know that it is something else entirely. How would a non physical, non material entity even interact with matter?

Nor would such a thing explain consciousness, which can and is effected by physical conditions, getting drunk, drugs, a blow to the head.....an application of anaesthetic switching conscious activity within the brain off for the duration of application.

This doesn't suggest anything non physical or non material, but a material process of a brain as yet unexplained.

I am really shocked that you say this. For all that is physical, the Standard model is absolutely essential in order to understand the brain and its environment.

Why would you be shocked? We can only understand the structure and workings of a brain by studying brains. Or do you think that physics alone explains brains and how they function.

I find your objection to this more than a little strange

 

[DBT]

Posted in the wrong thread.

 

[ryan]

I don't think it makes sense to move on unless you understand why nothing else physical matters other than its fundamental components, and the states and locations of them.

We can say a diamond is all sorts of things, but all that really matters and necessary to leave out redundant information is the kind, state and number of particles that compose it and exactly where they exist in a 3d matrix. Calling the diamond shinny, expensive, sharp, dense, etc. are all redundant qualities/properties. These are extrinsic properties that our brains give to the diamond. The necessary information is its intrinsic properties, and all there truly is.

Are you of the belief that "diamondness" exists as a whole entity in its own right as well as its fundamental locations and states of the parts, or would you say that the diamond is really just its fundamental parts and its locations and states of the parts?

I don't see how this relates to anything I have said.

I am just trying to figure out how you are thinking of the consciousness. In your opinion, is consciousness only its fundamental physical parts, or is there a hard emergent property that exists in its own right in addition to the physical parts of the brain?

But consciousness is something else entirely. Its properties are simply different than any configuration of properties of the Standard model. The point is that there is no reason that has been found within the Standard model to explain what the consciousness is or why it exists. There is, however entanglement that seems to truly unify matter, and yes, "seems" is all even science says.

You don't know that it is something else entirely. How would a non physical, non material entity even interact with matter?

Nor would such a thing explain consciousness, which can and is effected by physical conditions, getting drunk, drugs, a blow to the head.....an application of anaesthetic switching conscious activity within the brain off for the duration of application.

This doesn't suggest anything non physical or non material, but a material process of a brain as yet unexplained.

The problem here is that a thought cannot be detected. Its physical correlate can but not it. Everything else physical can be detected. Like how could you ever detect a thought?

I am really shocked that you say this. For all that is physical, the Standard model is absolutely essential in order to understand the brain and its environment.

Why would you be shocked? We can only understand the structure and workings of a brain by studying brains. Or do you think that physics alone explains brains and how they function.

I find your objection to this more than a little strange

Did you take first-year physics in university? Chemistry is applied physics, and biology is applied chemistry.

This is why we have to take university physics 101 to learn fundamentals like Newton's laws and particle physics for most first-year science courses. We learn about forces, the laws of the forces and then build off of it all to understand more complex systems.

If we didn't understand the Standard model, we wouldn't understand why anything in the brain would happen. We wouldn't even know what holds the brain together.

 

[OLDMAN]

Pansychism fails to explain why in the pretend world of the physical realm things seem to follow an order.
More complex brains have more ability than the less developed ones.
Even creatures with the most ability go through a meaningless process of learning?
The final ability to understand ones actions, limits, needs are pointless as they do not materialize except as an illusion.

At the end of the day, I am still left with an overwhelming urge to place this in the same realm as heaven, or an afterlife scenario where no physical bodies exist. Only there is no life to be lived, just an illusion.

 

[ryan]

Pansychism fails to explain why in the pretend world of the physical realm things seem to follow an order.

Please explain how panpsychism fails to explain order.

More complex brains have more ability than the less developed ones.
Even creatures with the most ability go through a meaningless process of learning?

What does a meaningful life have to do with panpsychism?

The final ability to understand ones actions, limits, needs are pointless as they do not materialize except as an illusion.

What do illusions have to do with what we are talking about? Is this about free will or something?

 

[DBT]

I don't see how this relates to anything I have said.

I am just trying to figure out how you are thinking of the consciousness. In your opinion, is consciousness only its fundamental physical parts, or is there a hard emergent property that exists in its own right in addition to the physical parts of the brain?

I don't have an opinion. I simply reflect the available evidence. The available evidence shows that what we call consciousness is not a single indivisible entity but a collections of features and attributes enabled by specific mechanisms and brain regions, sight, hearing, tactile sensation, smell, thoughts, emotions....any of which may fail without effecting other features of consciousness; sight may fail but the other senses being unaffected or growing more acute in order to compensate for loss of sight.

These are physical attributes and features based on information input from the senses, light waves, air borne molecules, etc, as processes by the brain and represented, each to its own order, in conscious form.

There is no evidence that consciousness comes from outside the brain and is beamed into the brain as a receiver

That is not the picture being painted by the evidence we have available to us,

Anything else is speculation.

If you want to speculate about astral worlds and universal mind, that is your private affair.

If we didn't understand the Standard model, we wouldn't understand why anything in the brain would happen. We wouldn't even know what holds the brain together.

Still beside the point. If you want to understand maths, you study maths before you look to the 'standard model' for an understanding of mathematics. The same for the brain, medicine, engineering, art or whatever.

 

[WAB]

DBT, you win the prize for theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee most indefatigable person on the Internet.

May I buy you a frothy one some time? I will be coming into serious cash once my insidious rise to literary fame has begun, so there will be no problem of you having to uphold your end. I mean, unless you really want to uphold your end, and get a good grip on yourself, as it were, and get things well in hand, in a manner of speaking.

What I mean to say is, good onya mate!



...Nobody expects the

 

[DBT]

DBT, you win the prize for theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee most indefatigable person on the Internet.

May I buy you a frothy one some time? I will be coming into serious cash once my insidious rise to literary fame has begun, so there will be no problem of you having to uphold your end. I mean, unless you really want to uphold your end, and get a good grip on yourself, as it were, and get things well in hand, in a manner of speaking.

What I mean to say is, good onya mate!



...Nobody expects the

A tankard of Brown Ale will do nicely, thank you very much. Cheers.

 

[ryan]

I am just trying to figure out how you are thinking of the consciousness. In your opinion, is consciousness only its fundamental physical parts, or is there a hard emergent property that exists in its own right in addition to the physical parts of the brain?

I don't have an opinion. I simply reflect the available evidence. The available evidence shows that what we call consciousness is not a single indivisible entity but a collections of features and attributes enabled by specific mechanisms and brain regions, sight, hearing, tactile sensation, smell, thoughts, emotions....any of which may fail without effecting other features of consciousness; sight may fail but the other senses being unaffected or growing more acute in order to compensate for loss of sight.

These are physical attributes and features based on information input from the senses, light waves, air borne molecules, etc, as processes by the brain and represented, each to its own order, in conscious form.

You are missing the whole point of the hard problem of the consciousness. Can you please just read the first paragraph on the Wikipedia link.

There is no evidence that consciousness comes from outside the brain and is beamed into the brain as a receiver

Where did I say there was?

If we didn't understand the Standard model, we wouldn't understand why anything in the brain would happen. We wouldn't even know what holds the brain together.

Still beside the point. If you want to understand maths, you study maths before you look to the 'standard model' for an understanding of mathematics.

Math is not science. But physics is very helpful in understanding math, and is even used by physicists to advance math. My professor is one who uses physics to do research for math.

The same for the brain, medicine, engineering, art or whatever.

Absolutely wrong, you must take first-year physics before doing brain science, engineering or medicine. You must understand the fundamentals before more complex systems. For medical school see, http://www.studentdoc.com/medical-school-requirements.html for requirements.

 

[Juma]

The problem here is that a thought cannot be detected. Its physical correlate can but not it. Everything else physical can be detected. Like how could you ever detect a thought?

Why would a thought be any harder to detect than say visual input or any other "datatraffic" in the brain?
What you really are after is the "internal experience" of the "inner theater", isnt it?
Not thoughts.

 

[Juma]

Please explain how panpsychism fails to explain order.

If panpsychism is is true, then why are we separared?
And besides: if panpsychism is true then psyche is just another property of matter so panspsychism is materialism.

 

[ryan]

The problem here is that a thought cannot be detected. Its physical correlate can but not it. Everything else physical can be detected. Like how could you ever detect a thought?

Why would a thought be any harder to detect than say visual input or any other "datatraffic" in the brain?
What you really are after is the "internal experience" of the "inner theater", isnt it?
Not thoughts.

Yes, internal experience works.

 

[ryan]

Please explain how panpsychism fails to explain order.

If panpsychism is is true, then why are we separared?
And besides: if panpsychism is true then psyche is just another property of matter so panspsychism is materialism.

Not really, it would be something that results from matter but does not affect matter. Properties of matter affect matter. This is just something different.

But I am not totally set on anything anymore.

 

[Juma]

If panpsychism is is true, then why are we separared?
And besides: if panpsychism is true then psyche is just another property of matter so panspsychism is materialism.

Not really, it would be something that results from matter but does not affect matter. Properties of matter affect matter. This is just something different.

But I am not totally set on anything anymore.

Does not affect matter? Then how would it result in agency?

 

[DBT]

I don't have an opinion. I simply reflect the available evidence. The available evidence shows that what we call consciousness is not a single indivisible entity but a collections of features and attributes enabled by specific mechanisms and brain regions, sight, hearing, tactile sensation, smell, thoughts, emotions....any of which may fail without effecting other features of consciousness; sight may fail but the other senses being unaffected or growing more acute in order to compensate for loss of sight.

These are physical attributes and features based on information input from the senses, light waves, air borne molecules, etc, as processes by the brain and represented, each to its own order, in conscious form.

You are missing the whole point of the hard problem of the consciousness. Can you please just read the first paragraph on the Wikipedia link.

No, I'm not missing anything, Ryan. I have already pointed out numerous times that we do not know how the brain forms its internal virtual representation of information....this being ''the hard problem''

As I've already said; the fact that we don't know how the brain forms conscious experience doesn't mean that we have nothing in the way of evidence that the brain does indeed form consciousness even though we don't know how: consciousness being composed of vision, hearing, thoughts, etc, etc. etc, all being related to the activity of sensory and processing centres/structures/lobes and organs.

 

[OLDMAN]

Please explain how panpsychism fails to explain order.

More complex brains have more ability than the less developed ones.
Even creatures with the most ability go through a meaningless process of learning?

What does a meaningful life have to do with panpsychism?

The final ability to understand ones actions, limits, needs are pointless as they do not materialize except as an illusion.

What do illusions have to do with what we are talking about? Is this about free will or something?

Why would or should there be an order in ability grouped closely to evolutionary advancement of brain power? It wouldn't be necessary, but there it is...

I didn't mention a meaningful life, I said the process of learning is not necessary with panpsychism. The fact we have to learn over time points to something else.

If we are an experience of a mind and not physical, then the physical is an illusion. Why the need for an elaborate illusion based on physical properties of pretend order?

Einstein told Schroeder that he shouldn't ignore reality.

 

[another1]

ryan I have a suggestion but it will cost some money. What you need to do is get your own MRI machine. That is where the cost would be, and I'm sure gofundme would say nofuckyou to that one. UNLESS you share your suspicions about the undetactability of thoughts. The machines show lights when a thought is thunk but that means very little. There is one particular spot that is protected by the rest of the brain, which is a mushy resoroir for electricty. It also helps with padding for brain bumps. Find the spot because the rest is just mush. There is a little receiver in there somewhere. You gotta find it.

Now here is how to put it to your money people. Tell them you plan to fast for ten days inside an isolation tank. See, a lot of cost is in getting the iv and catheter tubes to work in the tank. You're talking a hundred grand right there.

You also need about 200 grand for drugs. The drugs are for the end of the fasting, when you (and a very expensive team of experts) move from isolation tank to the MRI machine phase.

Tell your investors that you plan to smoke crack inside an MRI machine while having an orgasm after fasting. Actually you may want to deny the orgasm, but masturbating inside the machine would produce some good data readings. The parts that don't light up will be where to look, because the rest are just showing electrical activity.

You're going to repeat this dozens of times, and you'll eventually find one spot that doesn't show any activity. The next wave of expenses comes in acquiring living human bodies with fully functioning brains. The market is ripe with them but there is expense. Money can obliterate all roadblocks. Be sure to quote that when mentioning you plan to liberate victims of the slave trade to benefit science. That will get you 1/4 to your 1-2million dollar goal. I think you should have the other mill working for you, ready to put toward legal people. You could pull it off with a mill in your bedroom but when considering trafficked humans, huge amounts of narcotics and masturbating for science... best to have a few lawyers.

Half a mill gets you a good machine. The other devices you may as well say a quarter mill. Unless you're willing to rob some very rich people, you'll be raising money for a very long time. Also consider that this has already been done. All of this, huh. If I had a dollar for every hit of crack taken during a brainscan, I'd buy a brainscanner and some crack. Fingernails have been removed during these tests. People have been killed and revived during this experiment. I doubt there is anything new to gain, other than un-hushing some brain info withheld from the public. And that could get you killed. Actually you'd probably die before you had all of the money raised.

Security: that is undoubtedly your biggest priority. You're looking at a lot of trouble, just to prove that thoughts can (or can't) be detected. They're going to come for you. No doubting that.

You can clearly see on scans... where things go bright and when they don't. Are those real pictures? There seems to be a lot of innovation in brain trauma treatment and etc. Supposedly due to the tests done do at medical colleges - which brings me to my last suggestion. Steal the machine from a school, don't pay for it. You have the right to because you're a scientist. That is such a bizarre thing to steal. Once considering your gofundme page and strange journal entries, the authorities would send you up to the nuthouse instead of prison. In a mental institution, you'd get some brainscans. It would all come full circle either way. Really you can't lose unless you don't try.

 

[ryan]

Not really, it would be something that results from matter but does not affect matter. Properties of matter affect matter. This is just something different.

But I am not totally set on anything anymore.

Does not affect matter? Then how would it result in agency?

Panpsychism doesn't imply agency.

 

[ryan]

You are missing the whole point of the hard problem of the consciousness. Can you please just read the first paragraph on the Wikipedia link.

No, I'm not missing anything, Ryan. I have already pointed out numerous times that we do not know how the brain forms its internal virtual representation of information....this being ''the hard problem''

As I've already said; the fact that we don't know how the brain forms conscious experience doesn't mean that we have nothing in the way of evidence that the brain does indeed form consciousness even though we don't know how: consciousness being composed of vision, hearing, thoughts, etc, etc. etc, all being related to the activity of sensory and processing centres/structures/lobes and organs.

Okay, then we are in agreement about what the "problem" is.

Now, my issue is that if this inner-experience property of matter/brain has no effect on the physical world, then how can we call it physical? There seems to be only a one-way causality there.

 

[ryan]

Please explain how panpsychism fails to explain order.



What does a meaningful life have to do with panpsychism?

The final ability to understand ones actions, limits, needs are pointless as they do not materialize except as an illusion.

What do illusions have to do with what we are talking about? Is this about free will or something?

Why would or should there be an order in ability grouped closely to evolutionary advancement of brain power? It wouldn't be necessary, but there it is...

Is this an issue with evolutionary science or something? I am not sure what you are getting at.

I didn't mention a meaningful life, I said the process of learning is not necessary with panpsychism. The fact we have to learn over time points to something else.

Are you talking about the unification problem of consciousness?

If we are an experience of a mind and not physical, then the physical is an illusion. Why the need for an elaborate illusion based on physical properties of pretend order?

Sure, I would go with idealism before I would go with physicalism. But there does seem to be a difference between the two.

Or we can just keep tweaking physicalism until it covers ever substance, but it's more about using what the past definitions for physicalism and idealism were.

Einstein told Schroeder that he shouldn't ignore reality.

Yeah, but we all know what that was really about, and we all know who lost that battle. Now that was truly Einstein's greatest blunder.