Consciousness

[bilby]

Talking about what happens when a brain is damaged tells us NOTHING about what that brain is doing when fully intact.

You lack the ability to draw logical conclusions.

If I take one of the tires off your car it won't work properly.

That tells us nothing about how an internal combustion engine works.

Wow. I really didn't think anyone was that stupid.

Congratulations, you have just managed to lower my already low opinion of humanity.

Please stop. You are actively reducing the net intelligence of our planet.

Jesus fuck.

 

[George S]

Talking about what happens when a brain is damaged tells us NOTHING about what that brain is doing when fully intact.

You lack the ability to draw logical conclusions.

If I take one of the tires off your car it won't work properly.

That tells us nothing about how an internal combustion engine works.

However, disconnecting the spark plugs does tell something about how the engine works
Studying podiatry does not yield info about neurology.

 

[ryan]

You have provided your OPINION based on NO evidence. It is the position you start with. You do not demonstrate it in any way.

Nope, it is you offering your opinion in an attempt to maintain your beliefs.

I simply point to the fact that brain condition equals condition of consciousness, self identity/awareness and sense of control.

Let's assume that they have a complete correlation from brain processes to conscious states, which they absolutely do not but anyways. Are you willing to at least say that the consciousness exists in addition to these brain processes? And by "addition" I mean a phenomenal existence in of its own, though still dependent on the brain.

 

[untermensche]

Talking about what happens when a brain is damaged tells us NOTHING about what that brain is doing when fully intact.

You lack the ability to draw logical conclusions.

If I take one of the tires off your car it won't work properly.

That tells us nothing about how an internal combustion engine works.

However, disconnecting the spark plugs does tell something about how the engine works
Studying podiatry does not yield info about neurology.

It just tells us the spark plug is needed.

It doesn't tell us what the spark plug is doing or how the engine works.

For instance:

Is blood flow involved in consciousness? Supplying oxygen and glucose to cells is essential, but not that part, simply the flowing blood itself. The blood with iron in it moving.

Is the blood moving in vessels in the brain involved in the production of consciousness? Or the production of some other brain functions?

You won't see consciousness without blood flowing.

 

[untermensche]

Talking about what happens when a brain is damaged tells us NOTHING about what that brain is doing when fully intact.

You lack the ability to draw logical conclusions.

If I take one of the tires off your car it won't work properly.

That tells us nothing about how an internal combustion engine works.

Wow. I really didn't think anyone was that stupid.

Congratulations, you have just managed to lower my already low opinion of humanity.

Please stop. You are actively reducing the net intelligence of our planet.

Jesus fuck.

This is the hysterical hand waving to the point of vomiting method of criticism.

A human being suffers a stroke in the occipital lobe and their vision is now distorted.

What does that tell us about how the experience of vision is produced?

Go and destroy any area in the brain you want, you won't learn one thing about how consciousness is produced by doing it.

 

[fromderinside]

Start the reason people explore changes in function and capability when the brain is damages is the same as they would explore cooling or chemically interfering with parts of the brain. They are trying to understand why taking away function in a particular area changes by selectively running an experiment.

To caw that nothing is gained is just garbage and you know it. There are Scientific journals on just that sort of 'experiment'. To wit, changes in recognizing and saying have largely been traced to a harpoon lodging in a whaler's brain. Studies like those were is also important to our understanding of left/right function and structure in the cortex and midbrain.

 

[untermensche]

Start the reason people explore changes in function and capability when the brain is damages is the same as they would explore cooling or chemically interfering with parts of the brain. They are trying to understand why taking away function in a particular area changes by selectively running an experiment.

To caw that nothing is gained is just garbage and you know it. There are Scientific journals on just that sort of 'experiment'. To wit, changes in recognizing and saying have largely been traced to a harpoon lodging in a whaler's brain. Studies like those were is also important to our understanding of left/right function and structure in the cortex and midbrain.

They are learning something.

Learning areas. Some area is involved in vision, or maybe even involved somehow in recognition of horizontal lines.

Areas associated with some function, that's what we know from ablation.

But it is all a stalling tactic.

We already know the brain is involved.

The question is: How is it doing it? How is it involved?

Not where is it doing it.

 

[Juma]

However, disconnecting the spark plugs does tell something about how the engine works
Studying podiatry does not yield info about neurology.

It just tells us the spark plug is needed.

It doesn't tell us what the spark plug is doing or how the engine works.

For instance:

Is blood flow involved in consciousness? Supplying oxygen and glucose to cells is essential, but not that part, simply the flowing blood itself. The blood with iron in it moving.

Is the blood moving in vessels in the brain involved in the production of consciousness? Or the production of some other brain functions?

You won't see consciousness without blood flowing.

Stop it. You are only making a fool of yourself.

 

[DBT]

Talking about what happens when a brain is damaged tells us NOTHING about what that brain is doing when fully intact.

You lack the ability to draw logical conclusions.

If I take one of the tires off your car it won't work properly.

That tells us nothing about how an internal combustion engine works.

That's according to you. Which is understandable because you have your faith to maintain. But according to those who work in the field, pathologies of the brain reveal information about how the brain works and what the consequences of structural damage or chemical imbalances are in relation to consciousness, personality and behaviour.

Plus I have provided links and quotes by researchers such as Mark Hallett, a specialist in volition, that say exactly what I am pointing out.

Which are routinely ignored by you....only to repeat your own assertions.

Which don't mean much.

 

[DBT]

Wow. I really didn't think anyone was that stupid.

Congratulations, you have just managed to lower my already low opinion of humanity.

Please stop. You are actively reducing the net intelligence of our planet.

Jesus fuck.

This is the hysterical hand waving to the point of vomiting method of criticism.

A human being suffers a stroke in the occipital lobe and their vision is now distorted.

What does that tell us about how the experience of vision is produced?

Go and destroy any area in the brain you want, you won't learn one thing about how consciousness is produced by doing it.

No, seriously, you need to stop and have a good hard look at what you are saying. It's bad. You seem to be a decent enough guy but you not doing yourself any favours by posting this stuff.

 

[DBT]

Nope, it is you offering your opinion in an attempt to maintain your beliefs.

I simply point to the fact that brain condition equals condition of consciousness, self identity/awareness and sense of control.

Let's assume that they have a complete correlation from brain processes to conscious states, which they absolutely do not but anyways. Are you willing to at least say that the consciousness exists in addition to these brain processes? And by "addition" I mean a phenomenal existence in of its own, though still dependent on the brain.

The correlation and relationship between consciousness and brain is established to the point where there is not a single example of consciousness that is not directly related to the workings of a functional brain. The architecture and state of the brain being expressed in the form and function of conscious output and associated behaviour patterns.

 

[PyramidHead]

Let's assume that they have a complete correlation from brain processes to conscious states, which they absolutely do not but anyways. Are you willing to at least say that the consciousness exists in addition to these brain processes? And by "addition" I mean a phenomenal existence in of its own, though still dependent on the brain.

The correlation and relationship between consciousness and brain is established to the point where there is not a single example of consciousness that is not directly related to the workings of a functional brain. The architecture and state of the brain being expressed in the form and function of conscious output and associated behaviour patterns.

I'd like to hear your answer to his question, though. I actually agree with everything you wrote, but I can't deny that we're still talking about two things that are tightly correlated, not one thing.

 

[untermensche]

It just tells us the spark plug is needed.

It doesn't tell us what the spark plug is doing or how the engine works.

For instance:

Is blood flow involved in consciousness? Supplying oxygen and glucose to cells is essential, but not that part, simply the flowing blood itself. The blood with iron in it moving.

Is the blood moving in vessels in the brain involved in the production of consciousness? Or the production of some other brain functions?

You won't see consciousness without blood flowing.

Stop it. You are only making a fool of yourself.

This is perfectly reasonable.

Ablation experiments tell us NOTHING about function.

They only tell us about locations associated with function.

Which is of NO use in trying to understand function.

Do you have any rational reply? Or is it you who is the fool?

 

[untermensche]

This is the hysterical hand waving to the point of vomiting method of criticism.

A human being suffers a stroke in the occipital lobe and their vision is now distorted.

What does that tell us about how the experience of vision is produced?

Go and destroy any area in the brain you want, you won't learn one thing about how consciousness is produced by doing it.

No, seriously, you need to stop and have a good hard look at what you are saying. It's bad. You seem to be a decent enough guy but you not doing yourself any favours by posting this stuff.

Your comments are hilarious.

You have no ability to reason. No ability to deal with ideas.

No ability to think independently.

You have been spoon fed a bunch of garbage you don't understand.

And it is frustrating to you that people keep pointing out how little you actually know.

 

[untermensche]

If anybody here thinks they can prove that blood flowing in the brain does not contribute in some way to the generation of consciousness let them try.

This is no joke. It is an idea that can't simply be dismissed with the wave of the hand.

But some are too dull to comprehend that.

You have never seen human consciousness without blood flowing.

 

[PyramidHead]

If anybody here thinks they can prove that blood flowing in the brain does not contribute in some way to the generation of consciousness let them try.

This is no joke. It is an idea that can't simply be dismissed with the wave of the hand.

But some are too dull to comprehend that.

You have never seen human consciousness without blood flowing.

You know that because you know that taking away the blood stops consciousness. In other words, something that happens to consciousness when you damage the brain taught you something about how it normally works. Therefore...

Talking about what happens when a brain is damaged tells us NOTHING about what that brain is doing when fully intact.

...is clearly false.

 

[untermensche]

You know that because you know that taking away the blood stops consciousness. In other words, something that happens to consciousness when you damage the brain taught you something about how it normally works. Therefore...

Talking about what happens when a brain is damaged tells us NOTHING about what that brain is doing when fully intact.

...is clearly false.

I'm not talking about the blood supplying oxygen and nutrients to cells. We know that is necessary.

I'm talking about the moving of the blood in the vessels. The physical movement of iron containing molecules.

Can anyone prove that is not necessary for the generation of consciousness?

 

[PyramidHead]

You know that because you know that taking away the blood stops consciousness. In other words, something that happens to consciousness when you damage the brain taught you something about how it normally works. Therefore...



...is clearly false.

I'm not talking about the blood supplying oxygen and nutrients to cells. We know that is necessary.

I'm talking about the moving of the blood in the vessels. The physical movement of iron containing molecules.

Can anyone prove that is not necessary for the generation of consciousness?

??? Nobody is saying that. You were the one who said you can't prove anything about how the brain functions by looking at a damaged brain. A brain without blood flowing to it is a damaged brain.

 

[untermensche]

I'm not talking about the blood supplying oxygen and nutrients to cells. We know that is necessary.

I'm talking about the moving of the blood in the vessels. The physical movement of iron containing molecules.

Can anyone prove that is not necessary for the generation of consciousness?

??? Nobody is saying that. You were the one who said you can't prove anything about how the brain functions by looking at a damaged brain. A brain without blood flowing to it is a damaged brain.

I said you can't explain how the brain creates consciousness from ablation studies. You can't explain function.

And saying blood flow is necessary does not explain anything about how consciousness is generated either.

 

[PyramidHead]

??? Nobody is saying that. You were the one who said you can't prove anything about how the brain functions by looking at a damaged brain. A brain without blood flowing to it is a damaged brain.

I said you can't explain how the brain creates consciousness from ablation studies.

You actually said:

Talking about what happens when a brain is damaged tells us NOTHING about what that brain is doing when fully intact.

That's a big difference from what you're saying now, which is essentially "you can't solve the hard problem of consciousness by ablation studies."

You can't explain function.

Not completely, but it tells you more than NOTHING. If a person with a damaged hippocampus has problems remembering things, that's a strong indicator that the function of the hippocampus has something to do with memory.

And saying blood flow is necessary does not explain anything about how consciousness is generated either.

Actually, yes it does: it explains that blood flow is necessary for consciousness. That's not everything, but it's more than nothing.