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Consciousness

The philosophical side is basically saying that something is not being accounted for with even a full objective account of the brain. The key word is "objective". Science only builds an objective construction of the universe; this will not include something that can only be detected/known by each individual person.

Ferchrissake. We're biological machines which obey laws of nature. Your subjective side is based on very incomplete information. Did you see what Watson did to a chess champion who depends on emotional statement and two heavy money winners in a subjective/objective clue game?

Of course scientific method can account for what you think of as the subjective, even to the point of predicting outcomes for however into past of future you want to delve. Science can even unravel deterministic feedback, AKA know as Chaos. We even have a theory that works perfectly based employing a stochastic model called Quantum Mechanics. Give us fast enough equipment and we will out perform humans toot sweet. We take advantage of time to produce almost noiseless communication with time compression. My god man where have you been hiding your sensorium. We even employ modes comparing human this or that with ideals. We play with black boxes as toys.

Even you play with concepts you know little about to defend your idle notions.

Geez.
 
The philosophical side is basically saying that something is not being accounted for with even a full objective account of the brain. The key word is "objective". Science only builds an objective construction of the universe; this will not include something that can only be detected/known by each individual person.

Ferchrissake. We're biological machines which obey laws of nature. You subjective side is based on very incomplete information. Did you see what Watson did to a chess champion who depends on emotional statement and two heavy money winners in a subjective/objective clue game?

Of course scientific method can account for what you think of as the subjective, even to the point of predicting outcomes for however into past of future you want to delve. Science can even unravel deterministic feedback, AKA know as Chaos. We even have a theory that works perfectly based employing a stochastic mofrl called Quantum Mechanics. Give us fast enough equipment and we will out perform humans toot sweet. We take advantage of time to produce almost noiseless communication with time compression. My god man where have you been hiding your sensorium. We even employ modes comparing human this or that with ideals. Geez.

... yet, the precious tiny doubt persists. :D
 
The philosophical side is basically saying that something is not being accounted for with even a full objective account of the brain. The key word is "objective". Science only builds an objective construction of the universe; this will not include something that can only be detected/known by each individual person.

Ferchrissake. We're biological machines which obey laws of nature. Your subjective side is based on very incomplete information. Did you see what Watson did to a chess champion who depends on emotional statement and two heavy money winners in a subjective/objective clue game?

Of course scientific method can account for what you think of as the subjective, even to the point of predicting outcomes for however into past of future you want to delve. Science can even unravel deterministic feedback, AKA know as Chaos. We even have a theory that works perfectly based employing a stochastic model called Quantum Mechanics. Give us fast enough equipment and we will out perform humans toot sweet. We take advantage of time to produce almost noiseless communication with time compression. My god man where have you been hiding your sensorium. We even employ modes comparing human this or that with ideals. We play with black boxes as toys.

Even you play with concepts you know little about to defend your idle notions.

Geez.

Yes, I agree that science is the ultimate discipline to acquire practical knowledge. Subjectivity will never even come close to explaining as much as cognitive science. Subjectivity is useless; it doesn't affect anything. It is a quality of the physical world that science dominates the causal knowledge of. Subjectivity is physically inert. But one thing science cannot do is detect subjectivity. AND, science needs subjectivity to predict every mental state of pain/color/smell/etc to every brain state.
 
Ferchrissake. We're biological machines which obey laws of nature. You subjective side is based on very incomplete information. Did you see what Watson did to a chess champion who depends on emotional statement and two heavy money winners in a subjective/objective clue game?

Of course scientific method can account for what you think of as the subjective, even to the point of predicting outcomes for however into past of future you want to delve. Science can even unravel deterministic feedback, AKA know as Chaos. We even have a theory that works perfectly based employing a stochastic mofrl called Quantum Mechanics. Give us fast enough equipment and we will out perform humans toot sweet. We take advantage of time to produce almost noiseless communication with time compression. My god man where have you been hiding your sensorium. We even employ modes comparing human this or that with ideals. Geez.

... yet, the precious tiny doubt persists. :D

It is the doubt that is the proof.
 
Game is stacked in the scientist's favor. We only can observe about 0.00001 of things if we are very arrogant about it. So accounting for our certainty of things and the probabilities we are wrong is a pretty nice tune for us to be singing. For instance I'm not expecting a person to float off the earth into space any time soon.
 
Game is stacked in the scientist's favor. We only can observe about 0.00001 of things if we are very arrogant about it. So accounting for our certainty of things and the probabilities we are wrong is a pretty nice tune for us to be singing. For instance I'm not expecting a person to float off the earth into space any time soon.

Yes, I couldn't agree more; nothing I have said should make you think that I wouldn't agree with any of what you say here. Do you see what I am trying to say about subjectivity, or is there something I have said that you disagree with in post #1103?
 
No I don't. I've already explained humans are aware of very little of that to which they are exposed. To suggest that scientists can't, without being subjective, do or accomplish things is just plain a misunderstanding of the method. You seem to be eating myths to feed your arguments. So, yes I understand your perspective. It's just wrong, probably faith, obviously subjective.
 
No I don't. I've already explained humans are aware of very little of that to which they are exposed. To suggest that scientists can't, without being subjective, do or accomplish things is just plain a misunderstanding of the method.

Well surely scientists will be able to understand more about subjectivity by referencing their own subjectivity, but they will never find evidence for its existence.

I would like to ask you something about the paper I posted earlier. Your answer will either help me understand your argument or it will strengthen mine. Do you want to get into it? It probably won't be a long discussion.
 
demonstrating subjectivity is sorta like proving you are a human speaker. You will have demonstrated subjectivity if your model convinces others you were being subjective when you spoke.

As for the paper, why not.

The paper mentions the "high attention" group and the low "attention group". The high attention group were focused in on the products. The low attention group were distracted from the products, while the products existed as "irrelevant" objects in the background. The outcome shows, in his words, "choice-related processing does not necessarily depend on attentional all processing".

Since science does not accept conscious awareness, why do you think he distinguishes one group as a "high attention" group and the other as the "low attention" group?

Don't you think it is because the subjective experience is something that at least feels like a higher attention (even though it may not lead to more attention)?

Those being rhetorical questions, here is ine that isn't. Do you see how the subjective experience is something real and is something that we all have in addition to attention?
 
For the life of me, I can't how your comment relates to what I said.

If, as the evidence strongly supports, it is brain activity that forms and generates consciousness, then consciousness is a aspect, feature, attribute or however you care to put it, of an active brain.

Again, proposing non material consciousness as a solution to how consciousness forms is no solution at all.

Non material is inexplicable. It can't be defined, detected or used as an explanatory model for consciousness.

What is this proposed 'non material?' How does it work? How does it interact with material? How does it explain anything?

Again, the how, what and why questions are unknown. Do you not read my posts?

I read your posts, but when I ask these questions you say 'unknown' but then in the course of the discussion you continue to argue for panpsychism, or quantum consciousness or non material elements....as if these propositions/speculations are real solutions when they are not.

All we can say at this stage is that according to the evidence consciousness appears to be a physical activity of a brain but we do not know how the virtual representation of information is being achieved.

Subjectivity during brain activity does not necessarily have the typical physical properties. Subjectivity is a localized existence of experiences that probably are cause by the brain. But unlike any other physical property, it doesn't affect anything.

Not typical physical properties, for sure, but consciousness as a brain activity is nonetheless physical....affected by chemistry, electrical stimulation, etc, consciousness can be physically altered, manipulated or switched off altogether.
 
Again, the how, what and why questions are unknown. Do you not read my posts?

I read your posts, but when I ask these questions you say 'unknown' but then in the course of the discussion you continue to argue for panpsychism, or quantum consciousness or non material elements....as if these propositions/speculations are real solutions when they are not.

All we can say at this stage is that according to the evidence consciousness appears to be a physical activity of a brain but we do not know how the virtual representation of information is being achieved.

Subjectivity during brain activity does not necessarily have the typical physical properties. Subjectivity is a localized existence of experiences that probably are cause by the brain. But unlike any other physical property, it doesn't affect anything.

Not typical physical properties, for sure, but consciousness as a brain activity is nonetheless physical....affected by chemistry, electrical stimulation, etc, consciousness can be physically altered, manipulated or switched off altogether.

Okay, but does it affect anything?
 
I read your posts, but when I ask these questions you say 'unknown' but then in the course of the discussion you continue to argue for panpsychism, or quantum consciousness or non material elements....as if these propositions/speculations are real solutions when they are not.

All we can say at this stage is that according to the evidence consciousness appears to be a physical activity of a brain but we do not know how the virtual representation of information is being achieved.

Subjectivity during brain activity does not necessarily have the typical physical properties. Subjectivity is a localized existence of experiences that probably are cause by the brain. But unlike any other physical property, it doesn't affect anything.

Not typical physical properties, for sure, but consciousness as a brain activity is nonetheless physical....affected by chemistry, electrical stimulation, etc, consciousness can be physically altered, manipulated or switched off altogether.

Okay, but does it affect anything?

Your question implies autonomy. Consciousness is obviously a huge advantage for navigating our environment and interacting with it. It is our (brains) map of the world and self. It is extremely hard to get around without a map and not knowing who you are or where you are supposed to go or do.
 
I read your posts, but when I ask these questions you say 'unknown' but then in the course of the discussion you continue to argue for panpsychism, or quantum consciousness or non material elements....as if these propositions/speculations are real solutions when they are not.

All we can say at this stage is that according to the evidence consciousness appears to be a physical activity of a brain but we do not know how the virtual representation of information is being achieved.

Subjectivity during brain activity does not necessarily have the typical physical properties. Subjectivity is a localized existence of experiences that probably are cause by the brain. But unlike any other physical property, it doesn't affect anything.

Not typical physical properties, for sure, but consciousness as a brain activity is nonetheless physical....affected by chemistry, electrical stimulation, etc, consciousness can be physically altered, manipulated or switched off altogether.

Okay, but does it affect anything?

Your question implies autonomy. Consciousness is obviously a huge advantage for navigating our environment and interacting with it. It is our (brains) map of the world and self. It is extremely hard to get around without a map and not knowing who you are or where you are supposed to go or do.

The first sentence looks like you are about to say no, but then you go on to say that we use the consciousness???
What is your answer to my question?
 
The first sentence looks like you are about to say no, but then you go on to say that we use the consciousness???
What is your answer to my question?

I thought it was clear enough, especially after everything I've said in the last ten years and countless threads. But maybe the past is instantly forgotten by some, that being convenient I guess.

Your question was - Okay, but does it affect anything? - and I pointed out its function. Nobody has ever claimed that consciousness has no function....it just isn't autonomous. It does what the brain is doing for, basically, the purpose I mentioned.
 
Nobody argues that a brain that makes some kind of sense of the external world is a necessary component to having an animal that can move around and do things.

But that is really enough.

There is no need for there to some awareness by some "thing" of what the brain is doing.

The brain doing stuff is necessary.

Some unified "person" aware of what the brain is doing is superfluous.
 
The first sentence looks like you are about to say no, but then you go on to say that we use the consciousness???
What is your answer to my question?

I thought it was clear enough, especially after everything I've said in the last ten years and countless threads. But maybe the past is instantly forgotten by some, that being convenient I guess.

Your question was - Okay, but does it affect anything? - and I pointed out its function. Nobody has ever claimed that consciousness has no function....it just isn't autonomous. It does what the brain is doing for, basically, the purpose I mentioned.

"Nobody has ever claimed that consciousness has no function"??? How about epiphenomenalists?

Anyways, we start with the mind. The mind detects itself and what other apparent minds are saying about it. These minds discover physical properties that make up the mind. But the mind is still there too. It is something extra to the physical properties, totally correlated to its physical properties but there nonetheless.
 
demonstrating subjectivity is sorta like proving you are a human speaker. You will have demonstrated subjectivity if your model convinces others you were being subjective when you spoke.

As for the paper, why not.

The paper mentions the "high attention" group and the low "attention group". The high attention group were focused in on the products. The low attention group were distracted from the products, while the products existed as "irrelevant" objects in the background. The outcome shows, in his words, "choice-related processing does not necessarily depend on attentional all processing".

Since science does not accept conscious awareness, why do you think he distinguishes one group as a "high attention" group and the other as the "low attention" group?

Don't you think it is because the subjective experience is something that at least feels like a higher attention (even though it may not lead to more attention)?

Those being rhetorical questions, here is ine that isn't. Do you see how the subjective experience is something real and is something that we all have in addition to attention?

I believe I provided you a citation to the difference between attending and awareness. Here it is again: Attention and Awareness Aren’t The Same https://www.psychologicalscience.or...nd-awareness-arent-the-same.html#.WO6qf4jyuUk

There are several ways one can be attending to things. One is something happens to draw your attention such as a twig snaps or there is a sudden movement off from your primary view. Is such cases you turn your head toward the the attention demanding source. If you are involved in a conversation, an interesting conversation with one you like or admire, you may not become aware that you have turned your head as you keep talking. But your sensory system is processing the information from the vicinity of the source.Here you are conscious of the one with whom you are conversing, probably not conscious of the fact you have just turned your head, but you may become aware there is a fly at which you unconsciously swat your hand.

So we have the full boat. You are conscious of your conversation, you are aware because your unconscious is aware of the fly, and you are attending, but unaware of the the fact that you turned your head while you are unconsciously aware of a fly which of which you are not conscious. Things may develop to the point where you include your awareness of the fly in your consciousness where you may include that awareness in your conversation as you move your head back to focus on your conversee.

You will recall the conversation, you may recall you swatted at a fly during that conversation, but, you may not be aware that you turned your head to point your sensors in the direction of the fly.

Now as to your assertions that science does or does not recognize conscious awareness. Science does recognize consciousness, awareness and the combination conscious awareness. Scientists disagree on the composition, purpose, and functions of these attributes.

None of this is relevant to whether one attends in some operationally defined high or low state. It is obvious by the differences in the operations of what is defined as high and low consciousness. Idle gaze on random a environmental object may or may not become relevant depending on what the state of consciousness relating to that gaze.

Abhorring a vacuum (not a scientific term, but useful here), one becomes aware of something, anything within one's gaze if there is nothing else one finds relevant. That is the gaze, perhaps the movement of an object upon which one is gazing will determine whether one becomes aware and conscious of the object, otherwise meaningless, in the observer's gaze field.

Please don't go to 'feeling' in this conversation. Humans are wired to make choices relevant to certain important circumstances. Surprising things can be life threatening. Consequently we are wire to process that kind of stuff almost as a reflex. Conversations with individuals can be life threaten so we generally remain conscious of such. In between sense systems, neural hormonal systems, body state systems, all have processes and connections to our arousal and attentional nervous system where interesting outcomes arise. like what I outlined above. I hope this helps

My suggestion to you is consider the human a set of systems and processes which all interact, sometimes confusingly, to provide the best surviving individual they can given our complex history. We are not one thing except by molecular arrangement. IOW we are of many minds, instincts, reflexes, more or less getting along in a single corpus.
 
Attention can be reflexive.

But most of the time it is seemingly under conscious control.

I choose to attend to this or that. And I choose how hard I will attend.

Nothing is forcing me.
 
Very little of our lives are conscious. Attending is a process through which sensors are directed to or tuned to stimuli. this is the primary way humans attend.

You were force to be born. You are coerced (forced)to fit within your family, clan, party, company, etc. etc. etc.

You nature forces you most often to consider consequences of what you are thinking of doing.

If any time is left feel free to feel you choose what your are or will do.
 
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