Consciousness

[bilby]

So you completely miss the part (deliberately I'd say) about ''certain frequencies'' of EMR effecting brain function (which you denied) and go off on your own little strawman tangent that has nothing to do with the fact that certain frequencies of electromagnetic radiation do effect brain function.

This is typical of your antics of denial. Please stop. For your own sake. It's making you look very, very bad. You do much better on social equality issues. You'd be better off sticking to that.

I said MRI, very powerful magnet fields, have no effect on consciousness.

This is a fact.

You are the fool denying it.

Nobody has denied it. Nobody except you has even raised it. You are fighting a battle against an imaginary opponent.

Magnetic fields can affect consciousness. That doesn't mean that they MUST; and your insistence that it does is simply Affirming the Consequent.

 

[untermensche]

I said MRI, very powerful magnet fields, have no effect on consciousness.

This is a fact.

You are the fool denying it.

Nobody has denied it. Nobody except you has even raised it. You are fighting a battle against an imaginary opponent.

Magnetic fields can affect consciousness. That doesn't mean that they MUST; and your insistence that it does is simply Affirming the Consequent.

A neuron can be excited with an electric current.

But neurons do not communicate via electrical transmission.

So introducing electricity is not looking at normal function and it tells us nothing about normal function.

It tells us that cellular activity is involved in the production of consciousness in some way. What aspect of the activity is involved is a mystery.

And of course it tells us nothing about "patterns".

And effecting the things consciousness is aware of is not effecting consciousness.

 

[bilby]

Nobody has denied it. Nobody except you has even raised it. You are fighting a battle against an imaginary opponent.

Magnetic fields can affect consciousness. That doesn't mean that they MUST; and your insistence that it does is simply Affirming the Consequent.

A neuron can be excited with an electric current.

Yes.

But neurons do not communicate via electrical transmission.

So what?

So introducing electricity is not looking at normal function and it tells us nothing about normal function.

So what?

It tells us that cellular activity is involved in the production of consciousness in some way. What aspect of the activity is involved is a mystery.

So what?

And of course it tells us nothing about "patterns".

While 'in some way' is, by contrast the epitome of clarity

And effecting the things consciousness is aware of is not effecting consciousness.

Yes, it is. By definition.

 

[bilby]

Consciousness looks to be a property of some aspect of neural activity.

That would make it a physical property.

"Physical" is another honorific word, like "real".

If it exists it is real and it is physical.

Indeed. It's almost as though:

Consciousness is a set of patterns of electro-chemical activity in the cerebral cortex.

We know this, because interfering with those patterns (either electrically, chemically, or magnetically) causes reports of changes to consciousness by the subject of that interference.

Nothing else is involved, because there's nothing else that is physically able to communicate with the cerebral cortex to either collect information about the interference, or to transmit back a response. We know what is there, and we know how it communicates with the rest of the body and thereby the rest of the universe.

So we must conclude that certain complex patterns of electro-chemical activity are exactly equal to consciousness.

Given that you appear to be saying the exact same things you are denying, I can only conclude that your continued contribution to this thread is due to a desire for conflict, rather than clarity.

I guess it's less dangerous to pick fights on the Internet than it is to do so IRL.

 

[untermensche]

So introducing electricity is not looking at normal function and it tells us nothing about normal function.

So what?

You are claiming consciousness is an electrical effect because it is changed with the introduction of electricity.

But introducing electricity creates a cellular effect. A lot of them at once. Something totally different from normal function. It does not interfere with some electrical effect.

So we are still left with looking for a cellular effect, possibly an electrical effect of some kind, as the explanation of consciousness. We are no closer to an explanation.

We are not left with the conclusion consciousness is some electrical effect.

And the fact that consciousness is not changed in MRI's is evidence it is not an electrical effect.

 

[beero1000]

So what?

You are claiming consciousness is an electrical effect because it is changed with the introduction of electricity.

But introducing electricity creates a cellular effect. A lot of them at once. Something totally different from normal function. It does not interfere with some electrical effect.

So we are still left with looking for a cellular effect, possibly an electrical effect of some kind, as the explanation of consciousness. We are no closer to an explanation.

We are not left with the conclusion consciousness is some electrical effect.

And the fact that consciousness is not changed in MRI's is evidence it is not an electrical effect.

:laughing-smiley-014

 

[untermensche]

Indeed. It's almost as though:

Consciousness is a set of patterns of electro-chemical activity in the cerebral cortex.

We know this, because interfering with those patterns (either electrically, chemically, or magnetically) causes reports of changes to consciousness by the subject of that interference.

Nothing else is involved, because there's nothing else that is physically able to communicate with the cerebral cortex to either collect information about the interference, or to transmit back a response. We know what is there, and we know how it communicates with the rest of the body and thereby the rest of the universe.

So we must conclude that certain complex patterns of electro-chemical activity are exactly equal to consciousness.

Given that you appear to be saying the exact same things you are denying, I can only conclude that your continued contribution to this thread is due to a desire for conflict, rather than clarity.

I guess it's less dangerous to pick fights on the Internet than it is to do so IRL.

Nobody is picking fights.

I think this idea of "patterns" is something pulled from thin air and not supported by anything.

I do not talk about "patterns" or "frequencies" or "shapes".

Because to do so would be pretending to know something.

And effecting the things consciousness is aware of is not effecting consciousness.

Yes, it is. By definition.

No it is not.

Consciousness is that which experiences.

It is not what it experiences.

 

[none]

What is unconsciousness?

 

[ryan]

It is kind of strange that MRI, just being a really powerful magnet, flips protons with no effect to consciousness. But somehow a more powerfully focused magnet can affect the consciousness as per DBT's reference.

 

[bilby]

It is kind of strange that MRI, just being a really powerful magnet, flips protons with no effect to consciousness. But somehow a more powerfully focused magnet can affect the consciousness as per DBT's reference.

Not really - any more than it's surprising that the Earth's gravitational field doesn't make a ball roll on a flat plain, but does on a steep slope.

 

[ryan]

It is kind of strange that MRI, just being a really powerful magnet, flips protons with no effect to consciousness. But somehow a more powerfully focused magnet can affect the consciousness as per DBT's reference.

Not really - any more than it's surprising that the Earth's gravitational field doesn't make a ball roll on a flat plain, but does on a steep slope.

Right, I can't argue with the reference, but flipping protons is not really suppose to be functionally relevant to the consciousness. If I wasn't so lazy I would try to find how they explain this, that is if there is an explanation.

 

[bilby]

Not really - any more than it's surprising that the Earth's gravitational field doesn't make a ball roll on a flat plain, but does on a steep slope.

Right, I can't argue with the reference, but flipping protons is not really suppose to be functionally relevant to the consciousness. If I wasn't so lazy I would try to find how they explain this, that is if there is an explanation.

TMS apparently works by inducing electric currents in brain cells. NMR (aka MRI) works by inducing nuclear spin magnetic moments; any electric currents associated with NMR are much smaller and more local than those induced by TMS.

 

[DBT]

So you completely miss the part (deliberately I'd say) about ''certain frequencies'' of EMR effecting brain function (which you denied) and go off on your own little strawman tangent that has nothing to do with the fact that certain frequencies of electromagnetic radiation do effect brain function.

This is typical of your antics of denial. Please stop. For your own sake. It's making you look very, very bad. You do much better on social equality issues. You'd be better off sticking to that.

I said MRI, very powerful magnet fields, have no effect on consciousness.

This is a fact.

You are the fool denying it.

Nobody made the claim that fMRI effects consciousness. That is your ploy to avoid the fact that the brain is frequency sensitive and that not all frequencies in the electromagnetic spectrum effect consciousness, but some do.
That is what makes you appear ignorant and rude and arrogant, even when this is clearly pointed out to you. You not only ignore the relevant details but respond like a child.

 

[DBT]

But neurons do not communicate via electrical transmission.

Wrong again. It is both electrical and chemical, information processing is an elecrochemical process.


''Electrical events propagate a signal within a neuron, and chemical processes transmit the signal from one neuron to another or to a muscle cell. The chemical process of interaction between neurons and between neurons and effector cells occur at the end of the axon, in a structure called synapse.''

Neuronal signaling

To support the general function of the nervous system, neurons have evolved unique capabilities for intracellular signaling (communication within the cell) and intercellular signaling (communication between cells). To achieve long distance, rapid communication, neurons have evolved special abilities for sending electrical signals (action potentials) along axons. This mechanism, called conduction, is how the cell body of a neuron communicates with its own terminals via the axon. Communication between neurons is achieved at synapses by the process of neurotransmission.

Conduction

To begin conduction, an action potential is generated near the cell body portion of the axon. An action potential is an electrical signal very much like the electrical signals in electronic devices. But whereas an electrical signal in an electronic device occurs because electrons move along a wire, an electrical signal in a neuron occurs because ions move across the neuronal membrane. Ions are electrically charged particles. The protein membrane of a neuron acts as a barrier to ions. Ions move across the membrane through ion channels that open and close due to the presence of neurotransmitter. When the concentration of ions on the inside of the neuron changes, the electrical property of the membrane itself changes''

 

[untermensche]

It is kind of strange that MRI, just being a really powerful magnet, flips protons with no effect to consciousness. But somehow a more powerfully focused magnet can affect the consciousness as per DBT's reference.

Not really - any more than it's surprising that the Earth's gravitational field doesn't make a ball roll on a flat plain, but does on a steep slope.

Bullshit.

With an MRI you are exposing the entire brain to a very powerful magnetic field.

There is no evidence that increasing the power of the field will have any added effect.

With magnetic stimulation you are using a magnet to create a small electrical current. This is what excites the neurons.

Neurons can be excited with an electrical current. Cells can be excited, due to the properties of their membranes. It does not tell us anything about consciousness.

There is no evidence neural activity, no less consciousness, can be altered with magnetic fields.

 

[untermensche]

But neurons do not communicate via electrical transmission.

Wrong again. It is both electrical and chemical, information processing is an elecrochemical process.


''Electrical events propagate a signal within a neuron, and chemical processes transmit the signal from one neuron to another or to a muscle cell. The chemical process of interaction between neurons and between neurons and effector cells occur at the end of the axon, in a structure called synapse.''

Neuronal signaling

To support the general function of the nervous system, neurons have evolved unique capabilities for intracellular signaling (communication within the cell) and intercellular signaling (communication between cells). To achieve long distance, rapid communication, neurons have evolved special abilities for sending electrical signals (action potentials) along axons. This mechanism, called conduction, is how the cell body of a neuron communicates with its own terminals via the axon. Communication between neurons is achieved at synapses by the process of neurotransmission.

Conduction

To begin conduction, an action potential is generated near the cell body portion of the axon. An action potential is an electrical signal very much like the electrical signals in electronic devices. But whereas an electrical signal in an electronic device occurs because electrons move along a wire, an electrical signal in a neuron occurs because ions move across the neuronal membrane. Ions are electrically charged particles. The protein membrane of a neuron acts as a barrier to ions. Ions move across the membrane through ion channels that open and close due to the presence of neurotransmitter. When the concentration of ions on the inside of the neuron changes, the electrical property of the membrane itself changes''

What?

You are showing I am right.

Cells do not send electrical currents to the next cell.

They emit neurotransmitters and this is what excites the next cell.

 

[untermensche]

I said MRI, very powerful magnet fields, have no effect on consciousness.

This is a fact.

You are the fool denying it.

Nobody made the claim that fMRI effects consciousness. That is your ploy to avoid the fact that the brain is frequency sensitive and that not all frequencies in the electromagnetic spectrum effect consciousness, but some do.
That is what makes you appear ignorant and rude and arrogant, even when this is clearly pointed out to you. You not only ignore the relevant details but respond like a child.

I said MRI does not have any effect on consciousness and a bunch of morons starting posting things about magnetic stimulation, which is really just electrical stimulation, in response.

Don't blame me because morons can't read.

 

[beero1000]

Looks like we need a primer on MRIs and Maxwell's equations.

An MRI has 3 main systems: the primary magnet, the secondary magnets, and the RF system.

1. Primary magnet: This is the powerful magnetic field that everyone talks about when they say MRI uses a powerful magnetic field. It has field strengths up to some ridiculous number of Teslas (say 2 Tesla or more, depending on the scanner). Importantly, this field is STATIC.
2. Secondary magnets: These are used to modify the primary field into a non-uniform 'shape'. Figure, on the order of mT. Once they're turned on, this field is STATIC.
3. The RF system: This is the changing magnetic field and is used to cause the protons to precess. It is also on the order of milliTeslas, many times weaker than the main field.

Contrast that to TMS, where the magnetic field has strength on the order of 2 Tesla (similar to the static primary field of an MRI), but that 2T is rapidly cycling on/off.

What does Maxwell say about changing magnetic fields vs static ones?

 

[untermensche]

Looks like we need a primer on MRIs and Maxwell's equations.

An MRI has 3 main systems: the primary magnet, the secondary magnets, and the RF system.

1. Primary magnet: This is the powerful magnetic field that everyone talks about when they say MRI uses a powerful magnetic field. It has field strengths up to some ridiculous number of Teslas (say 2 Tesla or more, depending on the scanner). Importantly, this field is STATIC.
2. Secondary magnets: These are used to modify the primary field into a non-uniform 'shape'. Figure, on the order of mT. Once they're turned on, this field is STATIC.
3. The RF system: This is the changing magnetic field and is used to cause the protons to precess. It is also on the order of milliTeslas, 100-1000 times weaker than the main field.

Contrast that to TMS, where the magnetic field also has strength on the order of 2 Tesla, but that 2T is rapidly cycling on/off.

What does Maxwell say about changing magnetic fields vs static ones?

What happens to metal that is in your body in an MRI machine?

Pretending the field is weak is just a lie.

 

[beero1000]

Looks like we need a primer on MRIs and Maxwell's equations.

An MRI has 3 main systems: the primary magnet, the secondary magnets, and the RF system.

1. Primary magnet: This is the powerful magnetic field that everyone talks about when they say MRI uses a powerful magnetic field. It has field strengths up to some ridiculous number of Teslas (say 2 Tesla or more, depending on the scanner). Importantly, this field is STATIC.
2. Secondary magnets: These are used to modify the primary field into a non-uniform 'shape'. Figure, on the order of mT. Once they're turned on, this field is STATIC.
3. The RF system: This is the changing magnetic field and is used to cause the protons to precess. It is also on the order of milliTeslas, 100-1000 times weaker than the main field.

Contrast that to TMS, where the magnetic field also has strength on the order of 2 Tesla, but that 2T is rapidly cycling on/off.

What does Maxwell say about changing magnetic fields vs static ones?

What happens to metal that is in your body in an MRI machine?

Pretending the field is weak is just a lie.

Not enough facepalms in the WORLD.