"Coronavirus and the US" or "We are all going to die!!!!"

[Treedbear]

Rachel Maddow reports that Arizona, Utah, and North Carolina are experiencing major spikes in number of COVID-19 cases 2 weeks after they went to stage 2 relaxation of containment policies. Warnings now coming from hospitals limiting who gets admitted because they are running out of services, even in larger cities. Looks like the proverbial shit is about to hit the fan. Between Trump's strategy of ignore it and it will go away while calling for conventions an restarting rallies, and the undeterrable momentum of the BLM demonstrations, there will be no place for the smug to hide. Time to find a good hole to hunker down for a spell. I can get used to 55 degrees again.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I can’t wait until we are rationing food. That’ll so have been worth it.

 

[Treedbear]

I can’t wait until we are rationing food. That’ll so have been worth it.

You can always eat that there panda bear cake Jimmy.

 

[southernhybrid]

Considering how careless people are in my small city, I'm shocked that our numbers haven't risen much, at least not yet. We only go to the store for essentials and we plan our visits when the stores are nearly empty, but if I take a short ride, and pass restaurants, the parking lots are full, so it's obvious that these places aren't enforcing the rules that were put in place when the state opened back up.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Considering how careless people are in my small city, I'm shocked that our numbers haven't risen much, at least not yet. We only go to the store for essentials and we plan our visits when the stores are nearly empty, but if I take a short ride, and pass restaurants, the parking lots are full, so it's obvious that these places aren't enforcing the rules that were put in place when the state opened back up.

Here I see more of a mix. I don't mind shopping at peak hours even though I'm older, and many people feel similarly. Occasionally I see the scoffer without a mask but it is very infrequent. One has to make a calculation about quality of life and how much fear is healthy, even when death is on the horizon.

 

[4321lynx]

Tracking COVID-19 case growth. Right now you go to Wiki and you check out states you see the total number of cases and a percentage for the daily increase. But while this makes sense at the beginning of an outbreak, especially with a bug that last as long as SARS-CoV-2, shouldn't the percentage increase be based on the total existing number of cases and not the total number of cases which includes those that have recovered?

This would have a notable change on the perceived growth rate.

I've been thinking the same thing, but since I've been tracking the virus in my county since he only began, I know that at most, we've had 10 new cases per day. Some days there aren't any new cases. Of course that's known cases. None of us really know how many asymptomatic cases there have been. So, I'm still staying home except for grocery purchases and to bring dinner to my 74 year old neighbor who has several high risk factors.

My emphasis. Phrase implies that gender of virus is male. Was that a simple typo or a feminist Freudian slip? Perhaps induced by the vir in virus? Did you study much Latin at any stage of your life?

Sorry. Tried to resist posting this mild temporary derail for what seems like some days but finally could not.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Rachel Maddow reports that Arizona, Utah, and North Carolina are experiencing major spikes in number of COVID-19 cases 2 weeks after they went to stage 2 relaxation of containment policies. Warnings now coming from hospitals limiting who gets admitted because they are running out of services, even in larger cities. Looks like the proverbial shit is about to hit the fan. Between Trump's strategy of ignore it and it will go away while calling for conventions an restarting rallies, and the undeterrable momentum of the BLM demonstrations, there will be no place for the smug to hide. Time to find a good hole to hunker down for a spell. I can get used to 55 degrees again.

Here in Nevada I don't like the numbers, either--heading up pretty fast since the start of June and we just permitted the casinos to reopen, the infections from that will start hitting very soon.

 

[Treedbear]

Rachel Maddow reports that Arizona, Utah, and North Carolina are experiencing major spikes in number of COVID-19 cases 2 weeks after they went to stage 2 relaxation of containment policies. Warnings now coming from hospitals limiting who gets admitted because they are running out of services, even in larger cities. Looks like the proverbial shit is about to hit the fan. Between Trump's strategy of ignore it and it will go away while calling for conventions an restarting rallies, and the undeterrable momentum of the BLM demonstrations, there will be no place for the smug to hide. Time to find a good hole to hunker down for a spell. I can get used to 55 degrees again.

Here in Nevada I don't like the numbers, either--heading up pretty fast since the start of June and we just permitted the casinos to reopen, the infections from that will start hitting very soon.

Maddow tonight - The head of the Alabama Hospital Associations says "We're just full. … I mean this situation is just not sustainable." Also 14 states and Puerto Rico have recorded their highest 7-day average of new infections: Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Kentucky, New Mexico, North Carolina, Mississippi, Oregon, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and Utah.

 

[repoman]

If you or a loved one got fairly sick with covid-19 would you be very wary of going on a respirator?

Is this a case of this treatment having a lot of downside for this viral infection?

 

[bilby]

If you or a loved one got fairly sick with covid-19 would you be very wary of going on a respirator?

Is this a case of this treatment having a lot of downside for this viral infection?

Intubation is an heroic measure used to prevent imminent death from hypoxia. If you reach the point where it is being seriously considered by your healthcare providers, you don't have time to be 'wary'.

A ventilator isn't just like an oxygen mask only more powerful. It usually requires that the patient be under general anaesthesia, so that a tube can be forced down their windpipe. The insertion of the breathing tube requires considerable skill and is done using a lever/guide (typically a laryngoscope so the doctor can steer past the vocal cords) that can result in broken teeth. This device is necessary to bypass the epiglottis, otherwise you end up in the oesophagus, rather than the trachea. Pumping oxygen into the patient's stomach doesn't do much to relieve their hypoxia.

You go on a ventilator when the alternative is death in short order. Nobody volunteers or requests it.

It's a risky procedure, but not as risky as not breathing.

This is what laryngoscopes look like. The different sized blades are for different sized patients:

 

[repoman]

two months ago there was some controversy about this and people are saying that because there are blood clots that this make it dicey.

 

[southernhybrid]

Considering how careless people are in my small city, I'm shocked that our numbers haven't risen much, at least not yet. We only go to the store for essentials and we plan our visits when the stores are nearly empty, but if I take a short ride, and pass restaurants, the parking lots are full, so it's obvious that these places aren't enforcing the rules that were put in place when the state opened back up.

Here I see more of a mix. I don't mind shopping at peak hours even though I'm older, and many people feel similarly. Occasionally I see the scoffer without a mask but it is very infrequent. One has to make a calculation about quality of life and how much fear is healthy, even when death is on the horizon.

I am not at all fearful, but I am cautious, which is why I'm not fearful. . To be honest, our lifestyle has barely changed because we both have been retired for over two years. We were already spending most of our time at home. We haven't travelled in two years and we both dislike travel. The only thing we've given up is lunches out several days a week Plus our local atheist group hasn't met since February. And, the place where I exercise remains closed, so I've actually been exercising more since I've been home.

My sister in NJ, on the other hand, is irrationally fearful. She suffers from anxiety and she is caring for our mother who is 94 and dying from dementia secondary to Alzheimer's Disease. My sister's fear has kept her from allowing an aide into the house to help with personal care. I would have no problem allowing an aide in my home to care for our mother, if she was with me. So, my sister's fear is harmful to her health and well being, imo.

We went to the store this morning. There were less than 10 people in the store. Only one wasn't wearing a mask. I absolutely love shopping when the store is empty, not just because of the virus. It's just really nice not having to deal with crowded stores. If we need to go to Home Depot for something, we go right before closing. Again, the store is almost totally empty. I just might make this my new habit after the pandemic is over. Okay. That's my little derail.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If you or a loved one got fairly sick with covid-19 would you be very wary of going on a respirator?

Is this a case of this treatment having a lot of downside for this viral infection?

It's something you really don't want, but it's not something to be wary of. If you need it you need it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

two months ago there was some controversy about this and people are saying that because there are blood clots that this make it dicey.

Ventilators are a risky business. Anything goes wrong and you're dead and you're normally unconscious so you can't even try to do anything about it. Not using the ventilator is even riskier, though.

Note that how you feel is not a measure of the situation--normally when you can't get enough oxygen you also build up carbon dioxide, but the virus is in some fashion messing with the oxygen transport system, you get rid of the carbon dioxide ok and thus do not feel anything. If you have had hypoxia training you might recognize there's a problem but since the onset is slow even those trained might not recognize the problem. (Hypoxia training is given to pilots to hopefully let them recognize that there's a problem and grab an oxygen mask in time. Experience shows that it doesn't always work, though--there have been cases of planes that decompressed and both pilots were in their seats and neither grabbed the oxygen.) Without training you almost certainly will not realize there's any issue--many people have been killed by anoxic environments without any realization there was an issue.

 

[bilby]

two months ago there was some controversy about this and people are saying that because there are blood clots that this make it dicey.

Ventilators are a risky business. Anything goes wrong and you're dead and you're normally unconscious so you can't even try to do anything about it. Not using the ventilator is even riskier, though.

Note that how you feel is not a measure of the situation--normally when you can't get enough oxygen you also build up carbon dioxide, but the virus is in some fashion messing with the oxygen transport system, you get rid of the carbon dioxide ok and thus do not feel anything. If you have had hypoxia training you might recognize there's a problem but since the onset is slow even those trained might not recognize the problem. (Hypoxia training is given to pilots to hopefully let them recognize that there's a problem and grab an oxygen mask in time. Experience shows that it doesn't always work, though--there have been cases of planes that decompressed and both pilots were in their seats and neither grabbed the oxygen.) Without training you almost certainly will not realize there's any issue--many people have been killed by anoxic environments without any realization there was an issue.

Carbon dioxide transport doesn't depend on free flow of red blood cells in the way that oxygen transport does.

CO₂ is (mostly - about 85%*) converted into bicarbonate ions (and H⁺ ions) in red blood cells, and then excreted into the plasma. The plasma transports the HCO₃^- to the lungs, where it's absorbed by red cells and converted back to CO₂

As long as red cells are present throughout the circulatory system, they need not be particularly mobile for carbon dioxide transport to be effective, as long as plasma can still flow effectively. But slow circulation of red cells will dramatically reduce oxygen transport from lung to tissues, even if sufficient plasma flow persists to keep carbon dioxide transport up to normal levels.

Of course, as with all biological systems, the reality is likely much more complex than this simple description suggests.






* About 10% is transported bound to haemoglobin, in a similar fashion to oxygen; and about 5% is simply dissolved in the plasma as CO₂

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If you or a loved one got fairly sick with covid-19 would you be very wary of going on a respirator?

Is this a case of this treatment having a lot of downside for this viral infection?

Intubation is an heroic measure used to prevent imminent death from hypoxia. If you reach the point where it is being seriously considered by your healthcare providers, you don't have time to be 'wary'.

Yeah, it is pretty much, 'yes' or 'let them die'.

A ventilator isn't just like an oxygen mask only more powerful. It usually requires that the patient be under general anaesthesia, so that a tube can be forced down their windpipe. The insertion of the breathing tube requires considerable skill and is done using a lever/guide (typically a laryngoscope so the doctor can steer past the vocal cords) that can result in broken teeth. This device is necessary to bypass the epiglottis, otherwise you end up in the oesophagus, rather than the trachea. Pumping oxygen into the patient's stomach doesn't do much to relieve their hypoxia.

On a another board someone stated that their state had plenty more ventilators. And I was thinking, who the fuck would want anymore people be intubated than absolutely necessary. When you have to be knocked unconscious for something, the procedure is hideous!

 

[lpetrich]

Widespread mask-wearing could prevent COVID-19 second waves: study - Reuters

Population-wide face mask use could push COVID-19 transmission down to controllable levels for national epidemics, and could prevent further waves of the pandemic disease when combined with lockdowns, according to a British study on Wednesday.

The research, led by scientists at the Britain’s Cambridge and Greenwich Universities, suggests lockdowns alone will not stop the resurgence of the new SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus, but that even homemade masks can dramatically reduce transmission rates if enough people wear them in public.

“Our analyses support the immediate and universal adoption of face masks by the public,” said Richard Stutt, who co-led the study at Cambridge.

This is an interesting result:

The study found that if people wear masks whenever they are in public it is twice as effective at reducing the R value than if masks are only worn after symptoms appear.

R is the reproduction rate, and the disease can be transmitted asymptomatically. Many people don't suffer much from the disease, but their lack of suffering makes them good carriers. Like Typhoid Mary, an asymptomatic carrier for typhoid fever a century ago.

 

[Worldtraveller]

Yeah, it is pretty much, 'yes' or 'let them die'.

A ventilator isn't just like an oxygen mask only more powerful. It usually requires that the patient be under general anaesthesia, so that a tube can be forced down their windpipe. The insertion of the breathing tube requires considerable skill and is done using a lever/guide (typically a laryngoscope so the doctor can steer past the vocal cords) that can result in broken teeth. This device is necessary to bypass the epiglottis, otherwise you end up in the oesophagus, rather than the trachea. Pumping oxygen into the patient's stomach doesn't do much to relieve their hypoxia.

On a another board someone stated that their state had plenty more ventilators. And I was thinking, who the fuck would want anymore people be intubated than absolutely necessary. When you have to be knocked unconscious for something, the procedure is hideous!

My wife has made it clear that she never wants to be intubated again. She'd rather die. Seriously. This makes me extra careful when I have to go out these days.

 

[lpetrich]

People who ignore social distancing rules may have psychopathic personality traits, study finds
noting
PsyArXiv Preprints | Adaptive and Dark Personality Traits in the Covid-19 Pandemic: Predicting Health-behavior Endorsement and the Appeal of Public-health Messages
I couldn't resist author Pavel Blagov's mention of the Big Five model of personality:

One such domain, conscientiousness, predicts health-promoting and risk-avoiding behavior outside pandemic contexts (Roberts et al., 2005). Agreeableness (which entails empathy and cooperativeness) predicts compliance with social norms for specific health behaviors (e.g., in physical exercise, driving, sexual activity, alcohol use, and smoking; Malouff et al., 2006). Neuroticism, usually a health and risk behavior liability (Lahey, 2009), nevertheless may make people susceptible to “fear appeals” (dire warnings) to change behavior (Awagu & Basil, 2016). Extraversion likely makes social distancing aversive, and openness may boost health behaviors by improving perceptions of risk (Trobst et al., 2000). Overall, conscientiousness and agreeableness, the FFM’s prosocial domains, appear especially likely to predict health and risk behaviors.

Psychopathy: "unempathic callousness", including "egocentricity, grandiosity, glibness, remorselessness, deceptiveness, manipulativeness, recklessness, unreliability, and antisociality." The other two members of the Dark Triad are narcissism and Machiavellianism.

"Findings link psychopathy to deliberately misleading sex partners about one’s HIV- positive status (Benotsch et al., 2012) and narcissism to knowingly putting others at risk of HIV (Martin et al., 2013). More generally, psychopathy and the Dark Triad correlate with endorsement of unethical behavior (Pletti et al., 2017; Roeser et al., 2016)."

About public health messages (PHM's):

Per schema-congruence theory, as outlined above, differently phrased PHMs’ appeal would correlate with personality dimensions: (a) for a “self-centered” message, with narcissism, meanness, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy; (b) for a “responsible” message, with conscientiousness and (low) disinhibition; (c) for a “compassionate” message, with agreeableness, conscientiousness, (low) narcissism, (low) Machiavellianism, (low) psychopathy, and (low) meanness; (d) for an “avoidant” message, with neuroticism and (low) boldness; and (e) for a “sociable” message, with extraversion, boldness, and openness.

He found confirmation of several of his expected correlations, though not all of them.

Agreeableness and conscientiousness predicted the appeal of the Compassionate PHM (“Help protect the vulnerable!”), conscientiousness of the Responsible message (“Take personal responsibility!”), and neuroticism of the Avoidant message (“Avoid the disease!”). Psychopathy, meanness, and Machiavellianism negatively predicted the Compassionate message’s appeal. However, such findings were message-nonspecific: Overall, adaptive traits predicted PHM’s appeal, and maladaptive traits predicted their non-appeal.

Participants typically chose the Compassionate message over others (including the Self- centered one: “Keep yourself healthy!”). This parallels finding that appeals to altruism improve hygiene in analog (Betsch et al., 2013) and real-life (Grant & Hofmann, 2011) experiments. Yet, ranking the Compassionate message as most effective was linked to lower meanness, disinhibition, narcissism, and Machiavellianism. Thus, appeals to altruism may work for most people but might backfire in antagonistic individuals.

He concludes

The results do not mean that it is mostly irresponsible and inconsiderate people who spread viruses. The correlations were often small, and the traits’ scientific conceptualizations are not quotidian judgments about character. The results do not mean that people who contract a disease like Covid-19 have maladaptive traits. The findings do invite further research on personality in public health.

 

[southernhybrid]

People who ignore social distancing rules may have psychopathic personality traits, study finds

• A preprint study looked at how people's personality traits could influence whether they partake in coronavirus pandemic health guidelines or not.
• Study author Pavel Blagov surveyed people about their habits during the pandemic, and also asked them personality-based questions.
• Blagov found that people who exhibited more psychopathic traits like meanness and lack of restraint were more likely to disregard policies like social distancing.

If reports of people licking toilet seats and intentionally spitting on others during the coronavirus pandemic left you astounded, a new study on the psychology of pandemic behaviors could answer your questions about what motivated their behaviors.

The results:

If participants answered questions in a manner that suggested they had low levels of neuroticism, tendency to take risks, meanness, and lack of restraint, they were more likely to follow social distancing guidelines, but if they scored high in these traits, they were less likely to follow guidelines.

Study author Pavel Blagov said these traits are also common psychopathic traits.

If that's true, most of the people in my small city have psychopathic traits. I think I refer to it more as ignorance or denial. I tried to convince a nurse friend that she should keep wearing her mask when she goes to the store etc. She is a Trump supporter and a conservative Christian. I've never thought of her as a psychopath, just a clueless victim of brainwashing.