Covid-19 miscellany

[Loren Pechtel]

Didn't somebody say that the claim that our hospitals and healthcare workers were overwhelmed and stressed out to the max was simply fear mongering? Read the link below and get back to me.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/...xodus-of-americas-health-care-workers/620713/

The senselessness of the death, and her guilt over her own resentment, messed her up. Weeks later, when the same family called to ask if the staff had really done everything they could, “it was like being punched in the gut,” she told me. She had given everything—to that patient, and to the stream of others who had died in the same room. She felt like a stranger to herself, a commodity to her hospital, and an outsider to her own relatives, who downplayed the pandemic despite everything she told them. In April, she texted her friends: “Nothing like feeling strongly suicidal at a job where you’re supposed to be keeping people alive.” Shortly after, she was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, and she left her job.

Since COVID-19 first pummeled the U.S., Americans have been told to flatten the curve lest hospitals be overwhelmed. But hospitals have been overwhelmed. The nation has avoided the most apocalyptic scenarios, such as ventilators running out by the thousands, but it’s still sleepwalked into repeated surges that have overrun the capacity of many hospitals, killed more than 762,000 people, and traumatized countless health-care workers. “It’s like it takes a piece of you every time you walk in,” says Ashley Harlow, a Virginia-based nurse practitioner who left her ICU after watching her grandmother Nellie die there in December. She and others have gotten through the surges on adrenaline and camaraderie, only to realize, once the ICUs are empty, that so too are they.

As for the running out of ventilators bit--note that the emergency measure of putting multiple patients on one ventilator has become routine practice these days. And ICU staffing levels are far below where they should be. Rather than a hard limit we have stretched the safety margins very, very thin.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

I am at a point where I will no longer work for a company/employer that I cannot trust, as I am past minimum retirement age too. So I understand perfectly your reasoning.

I can’t help but wonder how much of the employee shortfall is due to good workers refusing to work for an employer they don’t trust, or employers who don’t care how much their employees are endangered by working in unsafe conditions. I suspect this might be more the cause than the popular notions that vaccine mandates and stimulus money are the cause of not enough workers being available.

Ruth

I have questioned that too for quite a while now. Some industry claims that requiring vaccination will make it harder to fill open positions. I wonder if the lack of an employee vaccine requirement may be keeping even more people away. Even health care. If I was a health care worker i would NOT take a job where vaccination was not required

It's important to remember that vaccination isn't the primary issue with antivaxxers. They've all been vaccinated for other things. They all use seat belts and obey traffic signals, even drive on the right side of the road. Imagine that! Amazing! Their inability to recognize their antivaxxer idiocy is a symptom, the causes of which could fill every library on the planet. Having a rational, dispassionate discussion with one reveals that they lack the ability to recognize their inconsistent behavior. Maybe Dunning Kruger is the real reason. That's where I'd put my money.

No, no, earlier in the thread, several posters, (including one who otherwise insists on rigorous scientific evidence for claims about Covid, about masking, about vaccines, and about the flu) have), have used anecdotal evidence and perhaps some reading of news reports, and have demonstrated that many anti-vaxxers are intelligent folks. This same poster roundly ignored an apparently rigorous study, posted on this forum, that showed anti-vaxxers tend towards sociopathy. So maybe with the intelligent ones it's not so much Dunning-Kruger, as a sociopathic fuck-it mindset: a scintillating lack of empathy and recklessness.

Actually, what you call "anecdotal evidence" is in this case decisive, as one is to assess whether all anti-vaccers are stupid/not intelligent people. Certainly, that is not so, regardless of whether anti-vaccers are more likely to be less intelligent, all other things equal. As to whether they are more likely to be psychopaths all other things equal, that is not relevant with respect to how intelligent or unintelligent they are. By the way, also it is not true that all anti-vaccers have been vaccinated against other things. Some have, and some have not. Most have, but they are only anti-Covid-vaccers. The (intelligent) Greek guy I mentioned before has not, as far as I can tell, gotten any vaccines (as an adult, anyway), though he also does not eat processed foods, avoids other medicines, etc., so more than an anti-vaccer he seems like an anti-modern-tech-in-the-body kind of guy.

intelligent people can be sociopaths.

Sure. And they can be non-sociopaths too. You say "So maybe with the intelligent ones it's not so much Dunning-Kruger, as a sociopathic fuck-it mindset: a scintillating lack of empathy and recklessness.", but there is no good reason to believe that all or even most intelligent anti-vaccers are like that. Again, think of intelligent Christians, Muslims, Marxists, etc. Plenty of intelligent people fall for religious/ideological nonsense.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

1. Suppose I say "COVID usually only kills those fully vaccinated people who are already severely weakened.". Do you have evidence that the 'usually' is more so for the flu, and by a significant margin?
To put it in other words, do you have good evidence that the flu is less dangerous than COVID is to fully vaccinated people, and also by a margin that would justify radically different treatments.

Further, suppose you add face masks - good and properly used. Do you think COVID poses overall a significantly greater risk to fully vaccinated people when unvaccinated people are wearing good masks, than the flu?

2. Even if they are severely weakened, it does not mean something else will get them - especially not if respiratory illnesses are not around.

Relevance to your argument?

It is relevant to challenge Loren's argument, by making a parallel with COVID, and also by challenging one of the claims. You seem to not be aware of my exchange with Loren.

I'm not convinced

I would suggest that you take a look at my exchange with him. If that doesn't convince you, then I do not believe I can convince you.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Sorry about the two posts, but I thought the first one hadn't gone through, and I can't fix it. No chance of editing or deleting, though both options looks available - until I try to use one; and I tried less than a minute after posting, then two minutes later, etc.. Did I mention I really dislike the new forum software? This is just another instance.

 

[Jarhyn]

Ron Johnson, on a Wisconsin tele-town hall, pushes mouthwash as a COVID treatment.

"By the way, standard gargle, mouthwash, has been proven to kill the coronavirus. If you get it, you may reduce viral replication. Why not try all these things?"

Surely there are substances they can gargle with that are even more effective at killing the coronavirus.

Watch this space.

Maybe we can popularize "swallowing cum" as a coronavirus cure.

 

[TomC]

Ron Johnson, on a Wisconsin tele-town hall, pushes mouthwash as a COVID treatment.

"By the way, standard gargle, mouthwash, has been proven to kill the coronavirus. If you get it, you may reduce viral replication. Why not try all these things?"

Surely there are substances they can gargle with that are even more effective at killing the coronavirus.

Watch this space.

Maybe we can popularize "swallowing cum" as a coronavirus cure.

We'll call it santorumizing.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

Ron Johnson, on a Wisconsin tele-town hall, pushes mouthwash as a COVID treatment.

"By the way, standard gargle, mouthwash, has been proven to kill the coronavirus. If you get it, you may reduce viral replication. Why not try all these things?"

Surely there are substances they can gargle with that are even more effective at killing the coronavirus.

Watch this space.

Maybe we can popularize "swallowing cum" as a coronavirus cure.

We'll call it santorumizing.
Tom

I mean look at me, no coronavirus yet!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Sorry about the two posts, but I thought the first one hadn't gone through, and I can't fix it. No chance of editing or deleting, though both options looks available - until I try to use one; and I tried less than a minute after posting, then two minutes later, etc.. Did I mention I really dislike the new forum software? This is just another instance.

It's supposed to let you edit or delete for an hour. I removed the dupe.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Sorry about the two posts, but I thought the first one hadn't gone through, and I can't fix it. No chance of editing or deleting, though both options looks available - until I try to use one; and I tried less than a minute after posting, then two minutes later, etc.. Did I mention I really dislike the new forum software? This is just another instance.

It's supposed to let you edit or delete for an hour. I removed the dupe.

Thanks, and yes, but even though I tried within 1-5 minutes, I was unable to delete it. I did get the "delete" button, but when I clicked on it, it kept going on like it was loading a page, with no effect.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Ron Johnson, on a Wisconsin tele-town hall, pushes mouthwash as a COVID treatment.

"By the way, standard gargle, mouthwash, has been proven to kill the coronavirus. If you get it, you may reduce viral replication. Why not try all these things?"

Surely there are substances they can gargle with that are even more effective at killing the coronavirus.

Watch this space.

Maybe we can popularize "swallowing cum" as a coronavirus cure.

Atheist's cum.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Sorry about the two posts, but I thought the first one hadn't gone through, and I can't fix it. No chance of editing or deleting, though both options looks available - until I try to use one; and I tried less than a minute after posting, then two minutes later, etc.. Did I mention I really dislike the new forum software? This is just another instance.

It's supposed to let you edit or delete for an hour. I removed the dupe.

Thanks, and yes, but even though I tried within 1-5 minutes, I was unable to delete it. I did get the "delete" button, but when I clicked on it, it kept going on like it was loading a page, with no effect.

Maybe you were having lag or connection problems--they're also the usual cause of dupes.

 

[Swammerdami]

I'd been complaining about difficulty of getting vaccinated (especially as a foreigner) in Thailand. But as seen in this latest chart from 91-divoc, Thailand's vaccination success has passed other disadvantaged countries like El Salvador, Iran, the U.S.A., and even Peru.

Moderna is finally available here in the Kingdom, though with queues. My entire family, except for me, has all gotten their 3rd jab (Moderna). I've already had two Pfizer jabs so, IIUC, it's more economic for me to wait a few months before the 3rd jab.

The link is to an interactive page, but that site is sometimes slow or fragile, so I've attached an image of its graph. Sad. The U.S. got up to 40% vaccination when most countries were floundering at 15% or less (and Thailand was about 1%). Now there are dozens of countries with higher vaccination rates than the U.S. Cambodia, a very poor country, is supposedly up at 93%!

This link shows the recent death rates over time. Thailand is now well below the U.S.A. in death rate from Covid-19. The U.S.'s numbers vary from state to state, as I've illustrated by including Kentucky in the graph.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Moderna is finally available here in the Kingdom, though with queues. My entire family, except for me, has all gotten their 3rd jab (Moderna). I've already had two Pfizer jabs so, IIUC, it's more economic for me to wait a few months before the 3rd jab.

Good to hear, you got the vaccine!

 

[TSwizzle]

The number of those who are getting sick despite being fully vaccinated is quite small—virtually all who are hospitalized have NOT been vaccinated or have not received boosters.

BS, the number of fully vaccinated getting sick and in hospital is significant and has been going up.

Claim uncited for obvious reasons.

"What we’re starting to see now is an uptick in hospitalizations among people who’ve been vaccinated but not boosted," Fauci said Tuesday. "It’s a significant proportion, but not the majority by any means."

News

 

[Elixir]

Swiz seems to think there's no significant difference... just like 95% of those dying from COVID today.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The number of those who are getting sick despite being fully vaccinated is quite small—virtually all who are hospitalized have NOT been vaccinated or have not received boosters.

BS, the number of fully vaccinated getting sick and in hospital is significant and has been going up.

Claim uncited for obvious reasons.

"What we’re starting to see now is an uptick in hospitalizations among people who’ve been vaccinated but not boosted," Fauci said Tuesday. "It’s a significant proportion, but not the majority by any means."

News

So you admit to taking Dr. Fauci out of context, especially relative to the post your responding to. Thanks.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

IMO, headlines and quotemines are out of control on this. Proportions are as expected. Vaccinated, boosted, unvax, whatever all as we expect. No conspiracy. The denominators and numerators are different. No one should be talking about majorities without talking about proportions. No one should be screaming "The majority of those getting sick are vaccinated!!!1!"

 

[Shadowy Man]

The number of those who are getting sick despite being fully vaccinated is quite small—virtually all who are hospitalized have NOT been vaccinated or have not received boosters.

BS, the number of fully vaccinated getting sick and in hospital is significant and has been going up.

Claim uncited for obvious reasons.

"What we’re starting to see now is an uptick in hospitalizations among people who’ve been vaccinated but not boosted," Fauci said Tuesday. "It’s a significant proportion, but not the majority by any means."

News

As a scientist, I use the word "significant" to mean inconsistent with pure noise. So, trying not to read too much into what Dr. Fauci said, I believe that he means that there's a difference between being vaccinated versus vaccinated plus boosted that indicates a real impact (i.e., not just a random statistical anomaly) of getting the booster shot, but that the great majority of hospitalizations are still among the unvaccinated.

In your link, Dr. Rochelle Walensky, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, continues on this point:

Walensky pointed out that rates of COVID-19 infections between people who are vaccinated with the initial doses and those who received boosters are notable.

"The rate of disease is markedly lower for those who received their booster shot, demonstrating our boosters are working," she said.

"Studies show that those who are unvaccinated continue to be more likely to be infected, more likely to be in the hospital and more likely to have severe complications from COVID-19," Walensky added.

 

[TSwizzle]

FFS, here we go again. That insufferable prick of a governor of California Gavin Newsom has issued a statewide mandate making masks to be worn indoors.

California is bringing back a rule requiring people to wear masks indoors, a move aimed at containing a new type of the coronavirus as people gather with family and friends during the holidays. Gov. Gavin Newsom’s administration announced the new mandate will start Wednesday and last until Jan. 15. “We know people are tired and hungry for normalcy. Frankly, I am too,” California Health and Human Services Secretary Dr. Mark Ghaly said Monday. “That said, this is a critical time where we have a tool that we know has worked and can work."

ABCNews

Except there is zero evidence to back that up.

 

[crazyfingers]

Gavin Newsom

I think that you secretly are in love with Gavin Newsom. His hair!!

But there is plenty of evidence that masks significantly reduce spread. I know that you've been shown evidence many times before. YOU just ignore the evidence and then go "LALALALALALA No evidence."

A study of an outbreak aboard the USS Theodore Roosevelt, an environment notable for congregate living quarters and close working environments, found that use of face coverings on-board was associated with a 70% reduced risk of infection.38
In a study of 124 Beijing households with > 1 laboratory-confirmed case of SARS-CoV-2 infection, mask use by the index patient and family contacts before the index patient developed symptoms reduced secondary transmission within the households by 79%.39
A study examining SARS-CoV-2 secondary attack rates among eight public K-12 school districts in Massachusetts (70 schools with >33,000 enrolled students) during the 2020–21 school year found an unadjusted secondary attack rate of 11.7% for unmasked versus 1.7% for masked interactions.40
A retrospective case-control study from Thailand documented that, among more than 1,000 persons interviewed as part of contact tracing investigations, those who reported having always worn a mask during high-risk exposures experienced a greater than 70% reduced risk of acquiring infection compared with persons who did not wear masks under these circumstances.41
During July 15–August 31, 2021, when Delta was the predominant strain circulating in the U.S., about one in five K–12 public non-charter schools open for in-person learning in Maricopa and Pima Counties, Arizona, experienced a school-associated outbreak. Outbreaks were three and a half times more likely (adjusted odds ratio 3.5, 95% confidence interval 1.8-6.6) in schools without mask mandates.42
In a nationwide analysis of data collected during July 1-September 4, 2021, U.S. counties without school mask requirements experienced larger increases in pediatric COVID-19 case rates (18.53 per 100,000 per day more cases) after the start of school compared with counties with school mask requirements.43
An investigation of a high-exposure event in the U.S., in which 2 symptomatically ill hair stylists interacted for an average of 15 minutes with each of 139 clients during an 8-day period, found that none of the 67 clients who subsequently consented to an interview and testing developed infection. The stylists and all clients universally wore masks in the salon as required by local ordinance and company policy at the time.44
Investigations involving infected passengers aboard flights longer than 10 hours strongly suggest that masking prevented in-flight transmissions, as demonstrated by the absence of infection developing in other passengers and crew in the 14 days following exposure.45, 46

At least ten studies have confirmed the benefit of universal masking in community level analyses: in a unified hospital system,47 a German city,48 two U.S. states,49, 50 a panel of 15 U.S. states and Washington, D.C.,51, 52 as well as both Canada53 and the U.S.54-56 nationally. Each analysis demonstrated that, following directives from organizational and political leadership for universal masking, new infections fell significantly. Two of these studies51, 52 and an additional analysis of data from 200 countries that included the U.S.56 also demonstrated reductions in mortality. Another 10-site study showed reductions in hospitalization growth rates following mask mandate implementation.54 A separate series of cross-sectional surveys in the U.S. suggested that a 10% increase in self-reported mask wearing tripled the likelihood of stopping community transmission.57 An economic analysis using U.S. data found that, given these effects, increasing universal masking by 15% could prevent the need for lockdowns and reduce associated losses of up to $1 trillion or about 5% of gross domestic product.52

Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.

www.cdc.gov