Covid-19 miscellany

[Angra Mainyu]

I think there is an additional error here. Having 11 people living together, not masking, not quarantining dramatically increases exposure incidents when 1 household member is sick. There is something apples to oranges about that environment versus a study.

It is different in that regard too, yes, but if the only evidence were from those 11 people, that would support weakly the assessment that they do not reduce chances of infection. In any case, he has plenty more evidence.

I might however give another piece of anecdotal evidence: the father of a coworker got Omicron, but his mother (who is the father's wife and lives with him) did not get infected. Neither did two more people in the same household, all vaccinated, living together etc. So, TSwizzle's argumentation would support that vaccines prevent infection at a high rate. But that too would not be correct, due to the numbers vs. the numbers in the studies.

 

[repoman]

So it has been almost three months since the science thread about covid in this board has had a post.

I think that early treatments and how doctors are being hamstrung from being able to prescribe some promising medications. I will totally leave ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine out of the discussion.

Should any doctor in the US be able to prescribe fluvoxamine (free of fear) for early treatment according to these general guidelines proposed in Ontario Province? (whatever about indigineous origin, not wanting a discussion about that)

https://covid19-sciencetable.ca/sci...hat-prescribers-and-pharmacists-need-to-know/



Does the U.S. doctor have to wait months or years to be able prescribe it? What happened to giving doctors a fairly wide latitude for off label use?

You want to save lives? Do this!

There are other knobs to turn other than vaccines, masks and brand new expensive medicines which do have their place for sure.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I think there is an additional error here. Having 11 people living together, not masking, not quarantining dramatically increases exposure incidents when 1 household member is sick. There is something apples to oranges about that environment versus a study.

It is different in that regard too, yes, but if the only evidence were from those 11 people, that would support weakly the assessment that they do not reduce chances of infection. In any case, he has plenty more evidence.

I might however give another piece of anecdotal evidence: the father of a coworker got Omicron, but his mother (who is the father's wife and lives with him) did not get infected. Neither did two more people in the same household, all vaccinated, living together etc. So, TSwizzle's argumentation would support that vaccines prevent infection at a high rate. But that too would not be correct, due to the numbers vs. the numbers in the studies.

TSwizzle's behavior is likely on the outskirts of others because he is very anti-mask. My point is just there are multiple variables feeding into predictive outcome of infection: exposure incidents, viral loads, date since full vax, etc etc, and his not masking and convincing family not to mask may play into the other variables there....leaving him to conclude the wrong variable is at fault. Other families in a household may be more regularly preventive and thus other variables at play. People who are ideological tend to base conclusions on a single variable that is a politically trending issue, but real life is not a controlled study.

 

[blastula]

I don't know if this was already posted, but I did not see it.

QAnon Star Who Said Only ‘Idiots’ Get Vax Dies of COVID​

In the face of these deaths, their surviving friends and supporters have started to allege that the dead QAnon figures are being murdered, either because they were refused internet folk remedies like ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine, or because they were killed by the deep-state to cover up their conspiracy theories. In December, Kuzma and a number of other conspiracy theorists were sickened with COVID-like symptoms after appearing together at a conference. Rather than acknowledge that they had COVID, the far-right influencers suggested they had been targeted by an anthrax attack.

After Weldon’s death, her QAnon allies threatened to pursue violent action against staff at the hospital where she died. Scott McKay, a QAnon personality known as the “Patriot Streetfighter,” said he would publicize the names of doctors and nurses involved in treating Weldon, saying he wanted to “put the fear into these medical professionals” in a Telegram post. McKay proposed the hospital staff be sentenced to death, or be murdered in vigilante violence.

“If it’s not done in a military tribunal then it’s going to be done in the street eventually and not to my wishes,” McKay wrote. “That’s my greatest fear. But if it’s necessary, it’s going to be necessary.”

Such sympathetic innocents.

 

[repoman]

I wonder if rules like college students needing a booster of two year old version of the virus ten days after current omicron infection when there will be an omicron vaccine by March or April make people so pissed off at the system that they become like the QAnon cultists in the post above.

Boosters were only really touted in the first FDA panel discussions for 65+ and immune compromised and then it got rammed through later.

What juice is worth what squeeze for a freshly infected/recovered double vaxxed college student? Get a booster or fuck off? Is this reality?

What kind of over charged immune response will that student have?

Have you no sense of decency?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Time to lift all restrictions and stop with the vaccination, mask mandates/passports etc;

Why? Because they're working?

The vaccines may aid somewhat, but everything else is crap.

Masks also work pretty well when people actually are serious about them.

Note that everyone we know who has been infected has been careless about masks.

 

[TSwizzle]

Dear oh dear. Look, I go by my experiences. 11 out of 11, that's 100%.

That is epistically incorrect, given the rest of the evidence available to you.

Anyway you look at it, any evidence to consider still shows that vaccinated people can and do spread the virus. So the vaccine is a bit of a bust as far as “stopping the spread” is concerned. Therefore the vaccine mandates and passports are not warranted.

Well, you can take a look at the numbers. {snip}

I did and I’m well aware of the “vaccine” shortcomings.

And with that, I’m out.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How many people who’ve had the Polio vaccine got Polio? The Covid vaccines do not stop infection or transmission. But you’re probably still better off getting it. Everything else - the masks, social distancing, lockdowns- is just for show. Those have become pure partisan politics, as there’s no science those measures do much at all. Was in Florida recently, and the freedom was wonderful. The Branch Covidians hate that.

The vaccines pretty much prevent infection by the strain they were engineered for. They likely stop Delta, they might stop Omicron--but in both cases even if they don't stop it they make it much less severe.

And if all the rest of it is show why was there such a difference between red and blue areas in the time before Omicron?

And just because a vaccine isn't 100% doesn't make it useless. I started out looking up Cholera because I knew the vaccine wasn't 100%--it's about 90% but travelers to affected areas are still recommended to get it. In doing this I found some other info: Chicken pox is about 90%, and breakthrough infections are usually mild. We still require it. Measles, 97%. Mumps, 88%. Rubella, 97%.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How many people who’ve had the Polio vaccine got Polio?

And how regularly did one get vaccinated against Polio? I believe I have had one Polio vaccination in my life. I've had three covid vaccinations in less than 12 months. And I still got the effing covid.

Polio is a three shot series.

 

[lpetrich]

Biden calls on employers to mandate vaccines despite Supreme Court ruling | TheHill

He isn't giving up.

President Biden on Thursday appealed to states and companies to require people to get vaccinated against the coronavirus despite the Supreme Court blocking his vaccine-or-test mandate for large employers.

...
“As a result of the Court’s decision, it is now up to States and individual employers to determine whether to make their workplaces as safe as possible for employees, and whether their businesses will be safe for consumers during this pandemic by requiring employees to take the simple and effective step of getting vaccinated,” the president said in a statement.

The president vowed to put pressure on companies to voluntarily create their own vaccine-or-test requirements.

He said the Supreme Court ruling “does not stop me from using my voice as President to advocate for employers to do the right thing to protect Americans’ health and economy.”

“I call on business leaders to immediately join those who have already stepped up – including one third of Fortune 100 companies – and institute vaccination requirements to protect their workers, customers, and communities,” Biden added in his statement.

He called the OSHA mandate a commonsense requirement and a "modest burden" on workers.

“I am disappointed that the Supreme Court has chosen to block common-sense life-saving requirements for employees at large businesses that were grounded squarely in both science and the law,” he said. “This emergency standard allowed employers to require vaccinations or to permit workers to refuse to be vaccinated, so long as they were tested once a week and wore a mask at work: a very modest burden.”

It's so much of a pleasure to read his statements. They are such a contrast with his predecessor -- he seems tons more mature.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There's a grain of truth in what Swiz is saying. Vaccinations are good, and even 99.99 percent of antivaxers would get vaxed for a major illness. But would you keep getting vaxed against the common cold or flu? I get a flu shot because it makes sense. I'm vaccinated against tetanus and shingles and a bunch of other things, and I suppose I'd get shots twice annually because those things are the pits.

What's the big deal about getting a vaccine?

But I just got over omicron myself. It sucked but it was just like a summer cold. I guess if I wore a mask while I was ill it would help keep others from getting ill but I just stayed at home, and recovered. The point is that Omicron is not as deadly and that's a good thing so I feel less threatened than I did a year ago.

I'm not saying to not get the shots, I'm talking about the masks.

It's not as deadly but having had the vaccine goes a long way towards reducing it's severity.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The vaccine wasn't designed for omicron. It was designed for alpha. We got lucky in that it worked for delta too. I assume an omicron vax is already being developed.

Yup, expected in March. Probably too late to be of any great value. The mRNA vaccines are easy to retarget against variants and such retargeting doesn't require anywhere near the testing that starting from scratch does. We do the same thing every year with the flu vaccine.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think there is an additional error here. Having 11 people living together, not masking, not quarantining dramatically increases exposure incidents when 1 household member is sick. There is something apples to oranges about that environment versus a study. If each person in the household has 1000 exposures to the sick one in that environment, I am not sure we should incorporate those 11 into a larger set at all. Maybe?? ...we could say the vax protects you 50% when you have an average number of exposures over 6 months...but there's probably also a distribution of viral load there, too, correlated to the 50%. Home environment with no masking, no quarantining, sharing considerable air will hit some threshold viral load with multiple exposures.

Yup--11 people living together, I don't think the vaccine has much of a chance against Omicron, other than to reduce the severity.

The thing is the amount of exposure makes a big difference. We saw back with the Wuhan strain that a great enough initial exposure was very dangerous even to the young and healthy. (We saw this in the doctors that were killed before we had adequate PPE.)

Vaccines are always about giving the body a head start against the pathogen, giving it a chance to kill it promptly before it has a chance to get a foothold. However, if the initial exposure is high enough it's going to get the foothold anyway.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I wonder if rules like college students needing a booster of two year old version of the virus ten days after current omicron infection when there will be an omicron vaccine by March or April make people so pissed off at the system that they become like the QAnon cultists in the post above.

Boosters were only really touted in the first FDA panel discussions for 65+ and immune compromised and then it got rammed through later.

What juice is worth what squeeze for a freshly infected/recovered double vaxxed college student? Get a booster or fuck off? Is this reality?

What kind of over charged immune response will that student have?

Have you no sense of decency?

Vaccines don't overcharge your immune system.

 

[bilby]

Anyway you look at it, any evidence to consider still shows that vaccinated people can and do spread the virus. So the vaccine is a bit of a bust as far as “stopping the spread” is concerned. Therefore the vaccine mandates and passports are not warranted

Both I and Serena Williams can play tennis.

So Serena is a bit of a bust, as far as "playing great tennis" is concerned.

Therefore big prize money for Grand Slam winners is not warranted.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Dear oh dear. Look, I go by my experiences. 11 out of 11, that's 100%.

That is epistically incorrect, given the rest of the evidence available to you.

Do the vaccines really, really, really work? Well they are somewhat effective at keeping the symptoms mild for the first few months apparently. Then after a few months it starts to get a bit iffy. So now you need to get "vaccinated" once a week, once a month, once a quarter, who knows? There is no way to tell what the vaccine did (if anything) for me and the others in my circle. And now you tell me the booster did hee-haw.

Well, you can take a look at the numbers. Vaccinated people are much less prone to serious illness and death, even without the boosters. But it is also true the boosters increase protection by a significant factor. Also, it's certain that once a week or month is no good. Once every four months is definitely an improvement over 6 since at 6 the effectiveness fell considerably, so definitely not as long as 6 months. I'm no expert, but I'd say with the current sort of vaccines, between 3 and 4 months would give a signficant improvement in immunity, which you ought to weigh against the side effects and other considerations.

No it's not. Earlier I said I've been vaccinated against Polio once in my life (shingles too). I've had a covid "vaccine" three times in less than 12 months. That's not a vaccine, it's a quasi flu shot. Even then I only ever got the flu shot once a year!! I'm not going to start getting "vaccinated" willy nilly, you go right ahead if you like but I'm done.

The sarcasm is out of place because there is enough info to know that vaccines help considerably reduce the severity of illness. If you do not want to call them 'vaccines', regardless, call them 'things that you get via a shot, which generally have some annoying by minor side effects and reduce the chances of serious covid by a lot' or whatever (I think 'vaccine' is simpler, though, and it is a correct usage of the term in English).

It is true, though, that vaccines can be pretty annoying, so maybe 6 months would be good enough for you - after all, you already got covid before the booster could take effect, and didn't do much, so there is that.

I meant to say "epistemically incorrect", sorry about the typo.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Anyway you look at it, any evidence to consider still shows that vaccinated people can and do spread the virus.

Some vaccinated people do. Also, some vaccinated people get sick, not just infected. And some vaccinated people die of covid. The evidence I was talking about is about the rate at which those things happen. And my point was that looking at evidence from 11 people is not a proper way of making an assessment. The father of a coworker got Omicron, but his mother (who is the father's wife and lives with him) did not get infected. Neither did two more people in the same household, all vaccinated, living together etc. Should I conclude that vaccinated people who get infected do not pass it to other vaccinated people ever, ignoring the rest of the evidence? No, that would be epistemically improper.

The fact is that vaccines have different degrees of effectiveness against different things (infection, illness, serious illness, death), as the data involving large numbers of people show. With Omicron, their effectiveness has fallen further, that is true. Probably in the future there will be better vaccines.

So the vaccine is a bit of a bust as far as “stopping the spread” is concerned.

It doesn't stop it, sure. But it slows it down, though to a lesser extent that before.

Therefore the vaccine mandates and passports are not warranted.

That's another matter. A common argument that I've encountered is that vaccine passports are needed to reduce the rate at which the unvaccinated get infected; otherwise, they put too much pressure on the health care system, occupying many ICU beds that others can't use as a result. As for vaccine mandates, also the objective would be to protect the health care system and save the lives of other people who need to be in the ICU.

In the city where I live, I think that's not a good justification because there are more than enough ICU beds now. But other places might be in a more difficult situation.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

What's the big deal about getting a vaccine?

It depends on the vaccine, but some do have considerably annoying side effects.

 

[barbos]

20% daily jump in Russia. Looks like omicron to me.

Another jump. Definitely omicron spike.

Russia COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer

Russia Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.

www.worldometers.info

I blame Obama Biden for allowing plague rats travel to Europe.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Well, finally I'm getting my booster shot tomorrow - somewhat late, but it could have been worse.

They tell me it's a Pfizer vaccine (after 2 doses of AZ). Over here, Pfizer's vaccine have been authorized for use up to 90 days after the expiration date (not to throw them away then they expire, perhaps due to mismanagement), and it seems a considerable percentage are indeed expired, though I do not know the actual numbers.
I'm not sure what impact - if any - that would have on effectiveness if I get an expired vaccine. I know many drugs are okay after the expiration date, but I'm not sure for how long that would be for the Pfizer vaccine.

Best wishes. I hope you don't get an expired vaccine booster.

Thanks.

Btw, they didn't tell me whether it was expired, but since they use the expired ones first (as they are closed to the new expiration date, set 90 days after the original ones), and they seem to have plenty of those, I probably did get an expired one. But it's probably okay.