Covid-19 miscellany

[ZiprHead]

Vaccine mandates obsolete;

It would be irrational, legally indefensible and contrary to the public interest for government to mandate vaccines absent any evidence that the vaccines are effective in stopping the spread of the pathogen they target. Yet that’s exactly what’s happening here. mandating a vaccine to stop the spread of a disease requires evidence that the vaccines will prevent infection or transmission (rather than efficacy against severe outcomes like hospitalization or death). As the World Health Organization puts it, “if mandatory vaccination is considered necessary to interrupt transmission chains and prevent harm to others, there should be sufficient evidence that the vaccine is efficacious in preventing serious infection and/or transmission.” For Omicron, there is as yet no such evidence. The little data we have suggest the opposite. One preprint study found that after 30 days the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines no longer had any statistically significant positive effect against Omicron infection, and after 90 days, their effect went negative—i.e., vaccinated people were more susceptible to Omicron infection.

WSJ

You do realize delta is still around, don't you?

 

[jab]

I had a phone call with someone who was my best friend in elamentary and jr high school. We talk from time to time and did some camping about 20 years ago. He now lives in Arizona and believes some crazy shit.

He refuses to get vaccinated and doesn't wear masks inside public places unless it's required.

We try to avoid politics but we were talking about my imminent retirement and that while I'm not big in travel, my wife wants to go to Europe after the pandemic is under control.

He said the pandemic will never be under control because the Federal Government doesn't want to end the pandemic. I couldn't stand it. I told him that the pandemic will never go away so long as idiot republicans won't get vaccinated and won't wear masks in public indoor places.

It's amazing someone would think how he does. And he's an RN!

It's embarrassing that so many people in my profession have been vaccine deniers. I've mentioned my nurse friend who almost died from COVID, as well as losing the man that was to marry this past November, to COVID. Neither of them were vaccinated. They were both obese and have/had diabetes and hypertension and are over 70. I've tried to give her some emotional support and I sent her a few little gifts to help with grieving. I heard from her yesterday and she still suffers from long haul symptoms after more than 5 months. But, sadly, I'm pretty sure that she still hasn't been vaccinated. A number of nurses who work at our local hospital were picketing last year when they were told they were required to be vaccinated. It's crazy.

And the link I'm going to add isn't very optimistic.

https://apnews.com/article/coronavi...th-pandemics-dc99bc9f769dd6d7cb669e3d185c6261

Get ready to learn more Greek letters. Scientists warn that omicron’s whirlwind advance practically ensures it won’t be the last version of the coronavirus to worry the world.

Every infection provides a chance for the virus to mutate, and omicron has an edge over its predecessors: It spreads way faster despite emerging on a planet with a stronger patchwork of immunity from vaccines and prior illness.

That means more people in whom the virus can further evolve. Experts don’t know what the next variants will look like or how they might shape the pandemic, but they say there’s no guarantee the sequels of omicron will cause milder illness or that existing vaccines will work against them.

So, just think what it will be like if a highly contagious variant emerges that is more deadly than Omicron, but the current vaccines are even less effective than they have been for most of the previous variants. Actually, I don't really want to think about that, but it is a possibility.

It is not 'obvious'. The advice on masking has changed throughout the pandemic, from 'security theatre' to 'a good idea' to 'absolutely essential' back to 'security theatre' (for cloth masks).

I suppose you are the arbiter of what statements are 'obvious' and what questions around them are 'ridiculous'.

No. Originally it was not understood that it was contagious before symptoms, thus the recommendation to save masks for those with symptoms. Note the underlying issue--there weren't enough masks to go around, using them on the sick and the medical people was the best use of the limited supply.

By now we have addressed the supply issue, masks have continually been recommended since then. Cloth masks were a workaround for a lack of supply of the proper ones, they were never recommended.

You're trying to reduce a complex thing to a sound bite and thus you think the message has changed. It never has, it's just been more complex than a yes/no. And note that the government mandates generally have been designed very poorly.

agreed.

 

[jab]

I didn't question the study. I haven't read it properly to critique it. I asked for the source of evidence.

Really, this level of hostility to a polite question isn't useful.

This has been a standard distortion by the death cultists--asking for evidence to a standard that clearly can't exist. It's been explained over and over.

Twice wrong in two minutes.

I am not a 'death cultist', nor did I ask for evidence to a standard that cannot exist. I asked for evidence, and I suggested the kind of evidence that could justify the conclusion quoted.

Your instant hostility to a polite question is noted.

a question may be "polite" in form, but crass and offensive in content and subtext.

 

[jab]

US inmates sue jail over ivermectin treatment for Covid as ‘medical experimentation’

The lawsuit alleges that the jail physician told the four men that the prescribed drugs were ‘mere vitamins, antibiotics and/or steroids’

www.theguardian.com

Four inmates at an Arkansas jail have filed a lawsuit against the facility and its doctor after they said they were unknowingly prescribed ivermectin to treat Covid-19 as a form of “medical experimentation” despite US health officials warning that the anti-parasitic drug should not be used for that purpose.

The Arkansas chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union filed the lawsuit on behalf of the men last week against Washington county jail, the Washington county sheriff, Tim Helder, and jail physician Dr Robert Karas. Last August, Helder revealed that the drug had been prescribed to patients with Covid-19.

“The lawsuit charges the defendants for administering ivermectin to incarcerated individuals without prior informed consent as to the nature, contents, or potential side effects of the drug,” the ACLU said in a statement last week.

Yikes--now, there's a precursor of the Nazis for you.

 

[jab]

78% of Democratic voters support the Biden administration’s COVID-19 vaccine mandate plan
75% of likely Democratic voters have a favorable opinion of Dr. Fauci
59% of Democratic voters would favor a government policy requiring that citizens remain confined to their homes at all times, except for emergencies, if they refuse to get a COVID-19 vaccine
55% of Democratic voters would support a proposal for federal or state governments to fine Americans who choose not to get a COVID-19 vaccine
48% of Democratic voters think federal and state governments should be able to fine or imprison individuals who publicly question the efficacy of the existing COVID-19 vaccines on social media, television, radio, or in online or digital publications
47% of Democrats favor governments using digital devices to track unvaccinated people to ensure that they are quarantined or socially distancing from others
45% of Democrats would favor governments requiring citizens to temporarily live in designated facilities or locations if they refuse to get a COVID-19 vaccine
29% of Democratic voters would support temporarily removing parents’ custody of their children if parents refuse to take the COVID-19 vaccine

Rasmussen

Remember, if you oppose that, it is because you are a "Fascist".

oppose what, exactly? To what does your "that" refer?

 

[jab]

So you support plague rats running around killing others and creating new and quite possibly more deadly variants.

"Running around killing others".

Maybe we can put the unvaccinated together in one place where they can't hurt the god-fearing. Maybe concentrate them together for logistical ease. I think we should withhold their property too because they are creating a burden on the righteous.

As in killing, fucking up supply chains, slowing down the economy, stuffing ERs, making life hell for Doctors, Nurses....

I mean, it was great people got to spend T-Day and Xmas 2020 together in the states, but was that really worth 250,000 people dying?

Unvaccinated people are not killing others. But I understand the rhetoric. If you want to demonise them and persecute them, it is helpful to accuse them of crimes.

Unvaccinated people are infecting others at a greater rate than vaccinated people.
Unvaccinated people (not all, but lots) are getting sick and clogging up hospitals, and putting other sick people's treatments in jeopardy.

 

[jab]

Can you explain to me why vaccine mandates for COVID 19 are bad? Please compare and contrast with mandated vaccines that all children receive routinely, and must document that they have received before attending day care, preschool, K-12 school or universities? Other vaccines mandated by the armed forces for all its military personnel? Routine vaccines such as the usual childhood vaccines, influenza, hepatitis A and B, and annual influenza vaccines mandated for health care workers and day care workers and nursing home personnel?

Tell me, has the US government forced a vaccine on its entire adult population before?

fluoridation is not quite vaccination. . . . but it does involve forcing the ingestion a mineral on the general populace, adults and children alike, for health reasons.
Lots of metaphorical, "Communist plot" politely swooning pearl clutching when that was brought in.

 

[jab]

Explain to me why COVID19 vaccination is so horrifically intrusive?

We've been through this a dozen times. If you cannot see how forcing a medical procedure on unconsenting adults is not 'horrifically intrusive', I cannot change your mind. You are simply somebody who is willing to use the State to impose her authoritarian will on others.

so you disavow George Washington as an authoritarian.

 

[jab]

And a bunch of other health and safety measures that help ensure the health and safety of all, including fuck witted libertarians who just care about freedom—theirs, not someone else’s.

Jacobson vs. Massachusetts, about the state coercing vaccination against smallpox, the decision said that the state is allowed to defend itself. And while the forced vaccination is a burden, one must suffer some burdens in order to live in a society. Individual liberty is not absolute.

decided at the Supreme Court, re. states' rights to force vaccination--but the Supreme court is a branch of the US federal govt.

 

[jab]

Really? Omicron is as harmless as the common cold?{snip}

For the vast majority of people that contract it, yes. For some people it is more serious but there's not much can be done about that.

As for 'leaving alone those who choose not to be vaccinated:' I would love to leave them alone. Let them stay home, out of stores and restaurants and movie theaters and other businesses. Hell, let's put them all in Idaho. I understand anything goes in Idaho.

Nah, you stay home if you are worried about it. Besides, you are vaccinated right? You wear a mask right? So you're good.

Also, be aware that vaccinated people do contract the virus and can spread it. It is obvious to me that you bang on about the unvaccinated because you have an authoritarian streak.

mRNA vaccines are not nearly as 'new' as you seem to think they are. And they are not 'experimental.'

Has the FDA approved this covid vaccine yet or is it still being used under emergency rules? I can't remember.

Problem is, as has been explained that so many people get it--thank you, anti-maskers, that the low rate of serious illness and death (higher than that of a common cold, tho,), still means lots of people are going to hospital and even dying.

 

[jab]

That isn't demonization, that is logistical truth. You really need to learn the difference between the two.

It is demonisation. Fat people use an extraordinary amount of healthcare resources, but nobody is forcing fat people to do something against their will. Also, it's some people with COVID that are using resources, not unvaccinated people. There are unvaccinated people who will never get COVID.

But, I can see why universal health care in the US will never be a reality. The absolute malice of some people--"we should dance on the graves of the unvaccinated"--is a sure sign there is no public will to help ideological enemies.

Are fat people in the US so clogging up the hospitals with their ailments that unfat people are having difficulty getting timely treatment? I haven't heard of this phenomenon. Please provide your source for this subtexual innuendo?

 

[Metaphor]

That isn't demonization, that is logistical truth. You really need to learn the difference between the two.

It is demonisation. Fat people use an extraordinary amount of healthcare resources, but nobody is forcing fat people to do something against their will. Also, it's some people with COVID that are using resources, not unvaccinated people. There are unvaccinated people who will never get COVID.

But, I can see why universal health care in the US will never be a reality. The absolute malice of some people--"we should dance on the graves of the unvaccinated"--is a sure sign there is no public will to help ideological enemies.

Are fat people in the US so clogging up the hospitals with their ailments that unfat people are having difficulty getting timely treatment? I haven't heard of this phenomenon. Please provide your source for this subtexual innuendo?

You haven't heard of the extraordinary burden that obesity is on health care systems, all over the world?

 

[jab]

Really? Omicron is as harmless as the common cold?{snip}

For the vast majority of people that contract it, yes. For some people it is more serious but there's not much can be done about that.

As for 'leaving alone those who choose not to be vaccinated:' I would love to leave them alone. Let them stay home, out of stores and restaurants and movie theaters and other businesses. Hell, let's put them all in Idaho. I understand anything goes in Idaho.

Nah, you stay home if you are worried about it. Besides, you are vaccinated right? You wear a mask right? So you're good.

Also, be aware that vaccinated people do contract the virus and can spread it. It is obvious to me that you bang on about the unvaccinated because you have an authoritarian streak.

mRNA vaccines are not nearly as 'new' as you seem to think they are. And they are not 'experimental.'

Has the FDA approved this covid vaccine yet or is it still being used under emergency rules? I can't remember.

post Covid brain fog?

Vaccine mandates obsolete;

It would be irrational, legally indefensible and contrary to the public interest for government to mandate vaccines absent any evidence that the vaccines are effective in stopping the spread of the pathogen they target. Yet that’s exactly what’s happening here. mandating a vaccine to stop the spread of a disease requires evidence that the vaccines will prevent infection or transmission (rather than efficacy against severe outcomes like hospitalization or death). As the World Health Organization puts it, “if mandatory vaccination is considered necessary to interrupt transmission chains and prevent harm to others, there should be sufficient evidence that the vaccine is efficacious in preventing serious infection and/or transmission.” For Omicron, there is as yet no such evidence. The little data we have suggest the opposite. One preprint study found that after 30 days the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines no longer had any statistically significant positive effect against Omicron infection, and after 90 days, their effect went negative—i.e., vaccinated people were more susceptible to Omicron infection.

WSJ

The WSJ piece is complete bullshit and is anti-vax territory,

Dr. Montagnier was a winner of the 2008 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for discovering the human immunodeficiency virus.

Obviously an anti vaxxer.

I haven't laughed this hard since my granny got her tits caught in the wringer

very revealing joke as to "libertarian" values.

 

[jab]

That isn't demonization, that is logistical truth. You really need to learn the difference between the two.

It is demonisation. Fat people use an extraordinary amount of healthcare resources, but nobody is forcing fat people to do something against their will. Also, it's some people with COVID that are using resources, not unvaccinated people. There are unvaccinated people who will never get COVID.

But, I can see why universal health care in the US will never be a reality. The absolute malice of some people--"we should dance on the graves of the unvaccinated"--is a sure sign there is no public will to help ideological enemies.

Are fat people in the US so clogging up the hospitals with their ailments that unfat people are having difficulty getting timely treatment? I haven't heard of this phenomenon. Please provide your source for this subtexual innuendo?

You haven't heard of the extraordinary burden that obesity is on health care systems, all over the world?

You didn't answer my question, or any question. Even your question, doesn't deal with the clogging up of American hospital beds by fat people to the detriment of unfat people also needing the hospital beds.

 

[ZiprHead]

That isn't demonization, that is logistical truth. You really need to learn the difference between the two.

It is demonisation. Fat people use an extraordinary amount of healthcare resources, but nobody is forcing fat people to do something against their will. Also, it's some people with COVID that are using resources, not unvaccinated people. There are unvaccinated people who will never get COVID.

But, I can see why universal health care in the US will never be a reality. The absolute malice of some people--"we should dance on the graves of the unvaccinated"--is a sure sign there is no public will to help ideological enemies.

Are fat people in the US so clogging up the hospitals with their ailments that unfat people are having difficulty getting timely treatment? I haven't heard of this phenomenon. Please provide your source for this subtexual innuendo?

You haven't heard of the extraordinary burden that obesity is on health care systems, all over the world?

You didn't answer my question, or any question. Even your question, doesn't deal with the clogging up of American hospital beds by fat people to the detriment of unfat people also needing the hospital beds.

Not to mention that being fat isn't contagious.

 

[Elixir]

Not to mention that being fat isn't contagious.

And the number of fat people requiring hospitalization doesn’t go from zero to eleven in a year, or even in twenty years. It’s relatively constant, and the system is built around it.

 

[Trausti]

Not to mention that being fat isn't contagious.

But it does make you more susceptible to Covid and any virus. You “eat up” more health resources. Think of all the health savings we’d get if people took care of themselves and quit eating crap. Nothing more ridiculous than an overweight lazy slob who moralizes that others are unhealthy for not wanting to wear a useless mask.

 

[Metaphor]

That isn't demonization, that is logistical truth. You really need to learn the difference between the two.

It is demonisation. Fat people use an extraordinary amount of healthcare resources, but nobody is forcing fat people to do something against their will. Also, it's some people with COVID that are using resources, not unvaccinated people. There are unvaccinated people who will never get COVID.

But, I can see why universal health care in the US will never be a reality. The absolute malice of some people--"we should dance on the graves of the unvaccinated"--is a sure sign there is no public will to help ideological enemies.

Are fat people in the US so clogging up the hospitals with their ailments that unfat people are having difficulty getting timely treatment? I haven't heard of this phenomenon. Please provide your source for this subtexual innuendo?

You haven't heard of the extraordinary burden that obesity is on health care systems, all over the world?

You didn't answer my question, or any question. Even your question, doesn't deal with the clogging up of American hospital beds by fat people to the detriment of unfat people also needing the hospital beds.

Your 'question' is not a question. It is an attempted justification of blood libel.

 

[TomC]

You haven't heard of the extraordinary burden that obesity is on health care systems, all over the world?

Even your question, doesn't deal with the clogging up of American hospital beds by fat people to the detriment of unfat people also needing the hospital beds.

Everyone knows that there are other, huge, health issues.
Here's a difference between obesity and smoking and alcohol and such vs. C19.

C19 is new. It's on top of all those other problems. The other problems have a long history and are built into our health care system. C19 and variants are new and added on top of previously existing conditions. The system doesn't have enough excess capacity to adequately deal with all of the problems at once.

Here's another important thing. Fixing the underlying causes of obesity and such require a lot more struggling than getting vaccinated. Getting vaccinated is a whole lot more feasible than losing 150 pounds, or kicking the nicotine habit.

They're not comparable. Pretending that they are is denial.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

78% of Democratic voters support the Biden administration’s COVID-19 vaccine mandate plan
75% of likely Democratic voters have a favorable opinion of Dr. Fauci
59% of Democratic voters would favor a government policy requiring that citizens remain confined to their homes at all times, except for emergencies, if they refuse to get a COVID-19 vaccine
55% of Democratic voters would support a proposal for federal or state governments to fine Americans who choose not to get a COVID-19 vaccine
48% of Democratic voters think federal and state governments should be able to fine or imprison individuals who publicly question the efficacy of the existing COVID-19 vaccines on social media, television, radio, or in online or digital publications
47% of Democrats favor governments using digital devices to track unvaccinated people to ensure that they are quarantined or socially distancing from others
45% of Democrats would favor governments requiring citizens to temporarily live in designated facilities or locations if they refuse to get a COVID-19 vaccine
29% of Democratic voters would support temporarily removing parents’ custody of their children if parents refuse to take the COVID-19 vaccine

Rasmussen

Remember, if you oppose that, it is because you are a "Fascist".

oppose what, exactly? To what does your "that" refer?

It's "take some good things, throw them in a bucket with bad things, and then play the fallacy of the excluded middle".

This is a fundamentally dishonest action to repeatedly do after being told that it is a fundamentally dishonest action.

To repeat it means someone would be pathologically incapable of honesty in this context, and to defend it would be to admit oneself dishonest after such.

I wonder which it will be, because I doubt the third road, the retraction, will ever be offered from such.

Silence is also an option but the turd still leaves it's smell even if you don't claim it.