Covid-19 miscellany

[Hermit]

If the vaccine behaved in the way I described, you would still want to force it on people.

Yes, I certainly would, and you still have not provided a reason why it is wrong to vaccinate people against their will. The claim that it is wrong because it only helps others is absurd.

 

[southernhybrid]

I really don't understand the vaccine deniers, especially after so many people have died and the vast majority of them have been unvaccinated. Children have been required to have vaccines since I was a child in the 1950s and until the last couple of decades, nobody seemed upset about that. In fact, when I briefly worked in an immunization clinic in the 80s, people couldn't wait to get their children vaccinated. People are required to take certain vaccines for foreign travel and I don't remember a single person up in arms over that. Medical personnel have been required to take Hep B vaccines since they were first developed and some employers require the flu vaccine.

WTF is wrong with people! As a former nurse, I also have to laugh at people who keep referring to a simple injection as a "medical procedure". I suppose you could call an injection that, but nobody ever did until this pandemic. I've always thought of a medical procedure as something performed by a physician. Things like colonoscopies, surgeries, etc. are medical procedures. This is a simple injection. Do they also call taking a pill a medical procedure? Come on! It's so easy to give an injection that one could give it to themselves after a little bit of instruction. You know, like what some diabetics do to themselves on a daily basis. Some of you are really making a lot more out of this than necessary.

I wish everyone would stop being little wussies and roll up their sleeves to protect themselves. I know it's not 100% effective, but neither is the flu vaccine but the only time I've had the flu was the year I didn't take my flu vaccine. The only people I know who died and were vaccinated were those who were over 70 and already had a terminal disease. WTF is wrong with people! Do those who refuse to take the vaccine doing it out of spite? Do they honestly believe that a vaccine that has proven to be safe and effective in most cases is going to hurt them in some way? The idea that it preserves their free dumb is one of the dumbest things I've heard in awhile, other than the shit that comes out of the mouth of the former president.

 

[Jarhyn]

I really don't understand the vaccine deniers, especially after so many people have died and the vast majority of them have been unvaccinated. Children have been required to have vaccines since I was a child in the 1950s and until the last couple of decades, nobody seemed upset about that. In fact, when I briefly worked in an immunization clinic in the 80s, people couldn't wait to get their children vaccinated. People are required to take certain vaccines for foreign travel and I don't remember a single person up in arms over that. Medical personnel have been required to take Hep B vaccines since they were first developed and some employers require the flu vaccine.

WTF is wrong with people! As a former nurse, I also have to laugh at people who keep referring to a simple injection as a "medical procedure". I suppose you could call an injection that, but nobody ever did until this pandemic. I've always thought of a medical procedure as something performed by a physician. Things like colonoscopies, surgeries, etc. are medical procedures. This is a simple injection. Do they also call taking a pill a medical procedure? Come on! It's so easy to give an injection that one could give it to themselves after a little bit of instruction. You know, like what some diabetics do to themselves on a daily basis. Some of you are really making a lot more out of this than necessary.

I wish everyone would stop being little wussies and roll up their sleeves to protect themselves. I know it's not 100% effective, but neither is the flu vaccine but the only time I've had the flu was the year I didn't take my flu vaccine. The only people I know who died and were vaccinated were those who were over 70 and already had a terminal disease. WTF is wrong with people! Do those who refuse to take the vaccine doing it out of spite? Do they honestly believe that a vaccine that has proven to be safe and effective in most cases is going to hurt them in some way? The idea that it preserves their free dumb is one of the dumbest things I've heard in awhile, other than the shit that comes out of the mouth of the former president.

So, I can see, if this is really where Metaphor is coming from though I strongly doubt it, insofar as:

Imagine a world not so long ago where people IRRATIONALLY and WIDELY believed that being gay would somehow damage society. It's not hard to imagine because it was not that long ago.

People thought being gay meant all kinds of stupid things, like that it would make people more violent, or that gay people were liable to give people AIDS or that they were more likely to molest children or rape people.

People would expect gay people to take an injection or pill that sterilized them.

People were worried a medical procedure could be forced on them which altered them in a meaningful way away from the person they wished to be.

Now discounting for the moment that Metaphor, while fighting for this, denies people's rights to be free of alterations that are forced on them in the discussion of puberty, this is a valid concern.

The issue here is that the concern has already been answered: the vaccine does not change who you are, and the dangers of being virally transmissive are real and observable.

In fact, the vaccine PROTECTS who you are, re prevention of Cytokine Storm.

Furthermore there is still a path without vaccination! It means regular, compulsory testing so as to ensure that unvaccinated persons are as unlikely to transmit as vaccinated persons.

 

[Jarhyn]

I mean shit I'm going to defend ALL SORTS of crazy, semi-destructive shit.

I'll occasionally scratch at the walls, I'll occasionally drop something I probably shouldn't.

I'll occasionally talk too loud.

I carry a big stick everywhere I go, and I'm sure it's not all that friendly to floors.

There are limits to how erosive anyone gets to be, however, and "so erosive as to give leverage on existential threats" is way past the line.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Yes, I certainly would, and you still have not provided a reason why it is wrong to vaccinate people against their will. The claim that it is wrong because it only helps others is absurd.

That's the basis of the Supreme Court decision. Society can inflict vaccination to protect society. Not individuals.
My wife has problem pregnancies. Anyone else getting an abortion does not increase her risks. Anyone carrying a baby to term does not decrease her risks.

Drunk drivers threaten others on the road, some people off the road, burden the ER, ICU.

Someone going to work contagious threatens coworkers/ customers, vendors. Also threatens people the coworkers, customers, vendors are in contact with. And burdens ER, ICU.

If you want to live in a society and enjoy the benefits of that society, you have certain responsibilities to that society, in additiin to the freedumbs you want afforded and protected by tgat society.

 

[Rhea]

As a former nurse, I also have to laugh at people who keep referring to a simple injection as a "medical procedure". I suppose you could call an injection that, but nobody ever did until this pandemic.

Yeah I’ve been laughing at the absurdity of that as well. “Medical procedure.”

I've always thought of a medical procedure as something performed by a physician. Things like colonoscopies, surgeries, etc. are medical procedures. This is a simple injection. Do they also call taking a pill a medical procedure? Come on! It's so easy to give an injection that one could give it to themselves after a little bit of instruction. You know, like what some diabetics do to themselves on a daily basis. Some of you are really making a lot more out of this than necessary.

It’s laughable to call something that is done at an (average for children who are diabetics) age of ELEVEN YEARS OLD is a “medical procedure.” It just shows the handwringing desperation for legitimacy that is being sought.

“Medical Procedure!”. Next it’ll be ear piercings and tattoos are “medical procedures,” amirite? Dr. Ink!

 

[bilby]

Children have been required to have vaccines since I was a child in the 1950s and until the last couple of decades, nobody seemed upset about that

The problem is that vaccines are a victim of their own success.

In the 1950s everybody knew someone who had lost a child to Measles, or Pertussis, or Rubella, or Mumps, or any one of the diseases for which, finally, some defence was available.

But today, nobody knows anyone who has lost a child to these diseases. So how bad can it possibly be? It's probably all just an exaggeration. Children don't die of diseases, except in historical dramas.

It's really difficult to get people to take threats seriously, when those threats are hidden.

 

[Elixir]

"so erosive as to give leverage on existential threats" is way past the line.

Threats to violently abolish the Constitution in favor of some mythical "freedum" are too childish to take seriously, which is a huge part of the problem. We snicker as if plague rats have pieces of toilet paper stuck to their shoes, instead of taking action against the threat they pose.

Our society is anything but peaceable and free. But if recorded history is any indicator it is not quite so barbaric as cultures of centuries and millennia gone by. Camelot moments are few and far between, and have only ever existed for segments of societies.

 

[Elixir]

It's really difficult to get people to take threats seriously, when those threats are hidden.

Kinda odd to hear you say that, knowing that you are more than aware of how much more seriously threats - especially non-existent ones - are taken when they're hidden*. It's a matter of spin, and Donald J Trump holds the blame for millions of deaths that would not have occurred if he had spoken of COVID the way he spoke of Antifa, Caravans, or Massive Voter Fraud.
All of those unseen "threats" struck deep fear into the hearts of the snowflakes on his roster, and COVID would have been no different except in the horrible reality of its threat.

* e.g. Fear of nuclear energy

 

[Elixir]

What eye-bleeding nonsense, Toni

So convincing.
As is your bleeding heart plea for plague rats. I bet you were real vocal about it when the Government/military was “experimenting” on civilian black and indigenous populations.

“Medical procedures” my scare quoting ass.

 

[bilby]

It's really difficult to get people to take threats seriously, when those threats are hidden.

Kinda odd to hear you say that, knowing that you are more than aware of how much more seriously threats - especially non-existent ones - are taken when they're hidden*. It's a matter of spin, and Donald J Trump holds the blame for millions of deaths that would not have occurred if he had spoken of COVID the way he spoke of Antifa, Caravans, or Massive Voter Fraud.
All of those unseen "threats" struck deep fear into the hearts of the snowflakes on his roster, and COVID would have been no different except in the horrible reality of its threat.

* e.g. Fear of nuclear energy

If you tell someone that a new nuclear power plant in their town has a good chance of killing their children, they believe you, even though you're wrong.

If you tell them that Measles has a good chance of killing their children, they don't believe you, even though you are right.

People are utterly shit at assessing risk.

But not so long ago, you didn't have to tell people that Measles was deadly. They knew, because they knew of children who had died from it.

 

[Toni]

Insisting that human beings have a basic duty to not inflict or prolong suffering on the rest of humanity is also recognizing and actually affording them more respect than you seem willing to do.

What eye-bleeding nonsense, Toni.

People have the right to their ignorant beliefs but they do not have the right to kill other people in service to those ignorant beliefs.

I will not engage this issue on your false terms.

You do seem to be expert in eye bleeding nonsense and false terms.

If your eyes are bleeding you really should visit a doctor.

 

[Keith&Co.]

You do seem to be expert in eye bleeding nonsense and false terms.

If your eyes are bleeding you really should visit a doctor.

SEE a doctor for bleeding EYES. Good one.
And i say that with literally bleeding eyes...

 

[Keith&Co.]

.

“Medical Procedure!”. Next it’ll be ear piercings and tattoos are “medical procedures,” amirite? Dr. Ink!

Actually, it'd make more sense to add the eye doctor's efforts to determine if you're safe to drive. That glaucoma test drives me up the wall. All three methods.
So, that 'corrective lenses required' block on the license is a further impingimentation on freedumb.

 

[repoman]

What eye-bleeding nonsense, Toni

So convincing.
As is your bleeding heart plea for plague rats. I bet you were real vocal about it when the Government/military was “experimenting” on civilian black and indigenous populations.

“Medical procedures” my scare quoting ass.

by a dry definition it is. Now whether some are dragging along too much connotation is another matter. YOU are doing the opposite, minimizing it. Putting something in a place of the body that gets past the standard body firewalls is a medical procedure.

And I think most vaccines have a great risk reward ratio.

COVID-19 Vaccination and Other Medical Procedures

 

[Elixir]

Now whether some are dragging along too much connotation is another matter

Whether? Hardly a question.
Plus inventing a non-existent context (forced against their will) within which to place this contrived horror…

 

[repoman]

Now whether some are dragging along too much connotation is another matter

Whether? Hardly a question.
Plus inventing a non-existent context (forced against their will) within which to place this contrived horror…

If one of the VERY RARE side effects like VITT happened to a person who only got vaccinated because of a requirement and no testing out - like for Washington State Govt workers, would that be "contrived"?

This parody of a hard line you are taking, are you venting personal frustrations through being an internet tough guy? This is a joke.

 

[Toni]

Now whether some are dragging along too much connotation is another matter

Whether? Hardly a question.
Plus inventing a non-existent context (forced against their will) within which to place this contrived horror…

If one of the VERY RARE side effects like VITT happened to a person who only got vaccinated because of a requirement and no testing out - like for Washington State Govt workers, would that be "contrived"?

This parody of a hard line you are taking, are you venting personal frustrations through being an internet tough guy? This is a joke.

No, that would be tragic.

 

[ZiprHead]

Now whether some are dragging along too much connotation is another matter

Whether? Hardly a question.
Plus inventing a non-existent context (forced against their will) within which to place this contrived horror…

If one of the VERY RARE side effects like VITT happened to a person who only got vaccinated because of a requirement and no testing out - like for Washington State Govt workers, would that be "contrived"?

This parody of a hard line you are taking, are you venting personal frustrations through being an internet tough guy? This is a joke.

VITT is characterized by the presence of two conditions concurrently: thrombosis (often in unusual sites like the cerebral veins or splanchnic veins) AND thrombocytopenia. Early mechanistic evaluations have identified antibodies directed against the platelet factor 4 (PF4)-heparin complex which activate platelets, similar to HIT antibodies. Detection of the PF4 antibodies can be done using a HIT ELISA test, but not reliably with other HIT laboratory tests.

The incidence of VITT is not certain, but it appears to be extremely rare. A recent report in JACC found that cerebral vein thrombosis occurred in 3.6 per million people after the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine and 0.9 per million people after Johnson & Johnson vaccine. For comparison, the rate of cerebral vein thrombosis is estimated at 207 per million in patients hospitalized with COVID-19 and 2.4 per million in the general population. The risk of death and serious outcomes of COVID-19 (including thrombosis) far outweigh the small risk of VITT.

Vaccine-induced Thrombotic Thrombocytopenia (VITT) and COVID-19 Vaccines: What Cardiovascular Clinicians Need to Know - American College of Cardiology

www.acc.org

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Because the TB threat level is low enough. The Covid threat level is high enough and most spread is asymptomatic (even for those who get seriously ill--the period of maximum infectivity is before symptoms show), nobody knows if they are a threat. Thus we have to consider everyone unvaccinated a threat. The average unvaccinated person is about 15x as dangerous to society as the average drunk driver.

You have to consider every vaccinated person a threat too.

With Omicron there's no personal safety other than high-grade masks, but at the level of society it still is very important--it's the unvaxxed that are crashing the healthcare system.