Covid vaxx may destroy the immune system - Study

[scombrid]

Bossche is taking a huge risk. Look at his CV.

You prefer to trust Snopes who may be taking orders from Big Pharma and others to publish "fact checking" articles. Ok then.

Yes, I'll disregard Snopes who fact checks claims and leaves the references up front so someone can inspect their work... because of some post on Reddit.

And it is a post about Monsanto! which has been subject to obscene amounts of disinfo funded by Cargill and promoted by Russia. Iowa State researchers studied patterns of GMO crop disinformation and found that outlets like Russia Today were primary promoters of a lot of "articles" critical of GMO that were rife with "misinterpretations" and outright lies as well. Not that Russia or Cargill had any vested interest in trying to undermine Monsanto.

 

[scombrid]

McGill University hosts a lengthy article criticizing his doomsday prophesy and pointing out the fallacies therein.

 

[jdf5]

Ok i read the first part of the Snopes article.

You now have the study about immune imprinting or OAS in my first post showing that vaccinated do not produce antibodies for new variants.
Bossche mention other studies to. Will try to understand what they are saying.

 

[Elixir]

t while also conducting his own research on Natural Killer cell-based vaccines.

Yeah, he is claiming that the world will be doomed by the mRNA vaccines while trying to sell his own "technology" that doesn't exist and is about as real at this time as a perpetual motion machine.

It blows my mind that there are so many suckers eager to lap up this kind of drivel.
Every uneducated RW moron suddenly becomes an infectious disease expert, rejecting actual science and cleaving unto whatever quackpot offers “alternative facts” (aka lies), for no other reason than that they don’t like the truth.

 

[Ford]

Bossche is taking a huge risk. Look at his CV.

You prefer to trust Snopes who may be taking orders from Big Pharma and others to publish "fact checking" articles. Ok then.

Yes, I'll disregard Snopes who fact checks claims and leaves the references up front so someone can inspect their work... because of some post on Reddit.

I don't know how familiar folks around here are with Reddit, but I've spent a lot of time reading and participating. If our new poster is getting information from r/conspiracy, you don't need to watch an hour long video or an interview on "Real America's Voice." Skip right past all of it. Do not pass Go, do not collect 200 dollars. You're wasting your time. That subreddit is like the "birds aren't real" folks, but they're actually serious.

p.s. birds are NOT real. They're all government drones that sit on power lines because that's where they charge.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

May I suggest you take your show to GETTR, PRAVDA, or Breitbart?
Right wing morons are far more likely to want to swallow this kind of crap than most people on this site.

Two posts into the thread and I thought the same thing. The OP is the kind of sensationalist bullshit that appeals to people who don't think and observe, just react emotionally to headlines.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Ok i read the first part of the Snopes article.

You now have the study about immune imprinting or OAS in my first post showing that vaccinated do not produce antibodies for new variants.
Bossche mention other studies to. Will try to understand what they are saying.

What I find ridiculous here is we have widespread evidence showing the vaccinated are doing more than a magnitude better when it comes to hospitalizations and deaths than the unvaccinated. Alpha, Delta, Omicron, Omicron BA.1, etc...

The data for this is overwhelming. But we are told there must be a technicality and we are doomed... soon.

 

[jdf5]

Ok i read the first part of the Snopes article.

You now have the study about immune imprinting or OAS in my first post showing that vaccinated do not produce antibodies for new variants.
Bossche mention other studies to. Will try to understand what they are saying.

What I find ridiculous here is we have widespread evidence showing the vaccinated are doing more than a magnitude better when it comes to hospitalizations and deaths than the unvaccinated. Alpha, Delta, Omicron, Omicron BA.1, etc...

The data for this is overwhelming. But we are told there must be a technicality and we are doomed... soon.

Perhaps that was true. But let´s stick to science so people are ready for whatever happens.

 

[Ford]

Ok i read the first part of the Snopes article.

You now have the study about immune imprinting or OAS in my first post showing that vaccinated do not produce antibodies for new variants.
Bossche mention other studies to. Will try to understand what they are saying.

What I find ridiculous here is we have widespread evidence showing the vaccinated are doing more than a magnitude better when it comes to hospitalizations and deaths than the unvaccinated. Alpha, Delta, Omicron, Omicron BA.1, etc...

The data for this is overwhelming. But we are told there must be a technicality and we are doomed... soon.

Perhaps that was true. But let´s stick to science so people are ready for whatever happens.

I was ready for your next post, so when you said "let's stick to the science" I did not have a volume of liquid in my mouth to spray over my keyboard. I am able to type this response in no small part due to proper preparation.

 

[jdf5]

A new study. Looks like Moderna knew about immune imprinting.

Anti-nucleocapsid antibodies following SARS-CoV-2 infection in the blinded phase of the mRNA-1273 Covid-19 vaccine efficacy clinical trial

Importance The performance of immunoassays for determining past SARS-CoV-2 infection, which were developed in unvaccinated individuals, has not been assessed in vaccinated individuals. Objective To evaluate anti-nucleocapsid antibody (anti-N Ab) seropositivity in mRNA-1273 vaccine efficacy...

www.medrxiv.org

Igor explains. https://igorchudov.substack.com/p/moderna-knew-vaccinated-people-will?s=r

The antibodies from the vaxx recognize a smaller part of the virus.
A breakthrough infection in "vaccinated" people produce far less protection than in the unvaxxed.
It gets worse the more shots you have.

From the study:
"for any given viral copy number, the odds of anti-N seropositivity were 13.67 times higher for the
placebo arm than the vaccine arm (95% CI 5.17, 36.16)"

 

[bilby]

Ok i read the first part of the Snopes article.

You now have the study about immune imprinting or OAS in my first post showing that vaccinated do not produce antibodies for new variants.
Bossche mention other studies to. Will try to understand what they are saying.

What I find ridiculous here is we have widespread evidence showing the vaccinated are doing more than a magnitude better when it comes to hospitalizations and deaths than the unvaccinated. Alpha, Delta, Omicron, Omicron BA.1, etc...

The data for this is overwhelming. But we are told there must be a technicality and we are doomed... soon.

Perhaps that was true. But let´s stick to science so people are ready for whatever happens.

OK.

You first.

I'll wait.

 

[jdf5]

A new study. Looks like Moderna knew about immune imprinting.

Anti-nucleocapsid antibodies following SARS-CoV-2 infection in the blinded phase of the mRNA-1273 Covid-19 vaccine efficacy clinical trial

Importance The performance of immunoassays for determining past SARS-CoV-2 infection, which were developed in unvaccinated individuals, has not been assessed in vaccinated individuals. Objective To evaluate anti-nucleocapsid antibody (anti-N Ab) seropositivity in mRNA-1273 vaccine efficacy...

www.medrxiv.org

Igor explains. https://igorchudov.substack.com/p/moderna-knew-vaccinated-people-will?s=r

The antibodies from the vaxx recognize a smaller part of the virus.
A breakthrough infection in "vaccinated" people produce far less protection than in the unvaxxed.
It gets worse the more shots you have.

From the study:
"for any given viral copy number, the odds of anti-N seropositivity were 13.67 times higher for the
placebo arm than the vaccine arm (95% CI 5.17, 36.16)"

Immune imprinting or OAS is what Bossche is talking about i suppose. That naturally induced antibodies are outcompeted by these generated from the vaxx that may even enhance infection.

 

[JohnG]

Hi jdf5 - again, I strongly urge you to check out TWIV (This week in Virology) They interview tons of highly experienced virologists and immunologists who have been doing this stuff for decades - and there are many viewpoints. It's a bit dry at times, and technical, but you seem to have a genuine interest in that stuff.

They go over all these new studies and dissect them, sometimes critical, sometimes supportive and not always in agreement. It's very nuanced. I think you would enjoy it and get a lot out of it.

The upside is you hear many highly qualified voices and their viewpoints.

 

[jdf5]

Hi jdf5 - again, I strongly urge you to check out TWIV (This week in Virology) They interview tons of highly experienced virologists and immunologists who have been doing this stuff for decades - and there are many viewpoints. It's a bit dry at times, and technical, but you seem to have a genuine interest in that stuff.

They go over all these new studies and dissect them, sometimes critical, sometimes supportive and not always in agreement. It's very nuanced. I think you would enjoy it and get a lot out of it.

The upside is you hear many highly qualified voices and their viewpoints.

Thanks! Do you know where they discuss immune imprinting and that antibodies from vaxx may outcompete naturally induced abs?

 

[Ford]

Hi jdf5 - again, I strongly urge you to check out TWIV (This week in Virology) They interview tons of highly experienced virologists and immunologists who have been doing this stuff for decades - and there are many viewpoints. It's a bit dry at times, and technical, but you seem to have a genuine interest in that stuff.

They go over all these new studies and dissect them, sometimes critical, sometimes supportive and not always in agreement. It's very nuanced. I think you would enjoy it and get a lot out of it.

The upside is you hear many highly qualified voices and their viewpoints.

Thanks! Do you know where they discuss immune imprinting and that antibodies from vaxx may outcompete naturally induced abs?

Wait...so if a guy has naturally induced 6-pack abs, that's proof that vaccinations are poison?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Well, that is a load of bullshit.

Statistically, it is most like that Covid-19 was going to mutate to become more contagious, which would statistically mean it would likely get less harmful

We are seeing that unfold. That has absolutely nothing to with the vaccine, which is still protecting the vaccinated much better than those that are not vaccinated. The virus gets weaker because all it "cares" about is reproducing. So if a mutation helps it be caught easier, it doesn't matter if it was weaker or not.

And with the vaccine, even against BA.4/5, the old vaccine is impacting how badly it can harm someone. Meanwhile, in a small study, it is appearing that unvax'd Omicron BA.1 infections are NOT leading to immunity in BA.4/5.

So the OP is just more misinformation.

Are you saying the study by 50 scientists published in Cell is disinfo?

They write:
"Viral variant infection elicits variant-specific antibodies, but prior mRNA vaccination imprints serological responses toward Wuhan-Hu-1 rather than variant antigens."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867422000769

So what? You're drawing improper conclusions from this.

Yes, antibodies synthesized against the latest would be more effective against that version. That does not mean they'll be more effective against the next version. That's what we are already seeing--the protection provided by infection with a given variant pretty much precludes reinfection with that variant--but doesn't provide very good protection against others.

The vaccine-induced antibodies are effective against a much wider range of variants.

The problem is you are measuring the wrong endpoint. Lowering the probability a given variant infects you is not the goal, but rather a proxy for the real goal of being alive and unharmed. It's called the survivorship fallacy--you're not counting the ones that didn't survive so the numbers look better than they really are.

Let's put this into a simpler scenario so hopefully you can see the problem:

You're standing in the street. I'm standing 100' away from you, I take out a six-shooter, load one cartridge and spin the cylinder. Now, this isn't quite Russian Roulette as I'm a fair distance away and my eyes have never exactly gotten along with iron sights anyway.

I pull the trigger, what happens? Either it goes click or it goes bang, and if it goes bang maybe I kill you (1%), maybe I wing you (4%), maybe I miss (95%.) I spin the cylinder again and pull the trigger once more. Now, if it previously went bang it obviously does nothing, whereas if it didn't go bang before maybe it does this time, with the same outcomes as before. You're looking at it and seeing the gun that has already gone bang as being safer than the one that hasn't--but to look at that gun that has gone bang you have to have survived the previous bang.

However, let's consider 3600 targets and 3600 guns. Same scenario and odds, spin the cylinder and pull the trigger. There's a 1 in 6 that it fires, this leaves 6 targets dead, 24 targets winged, and 3570 targets still standing. Spin the cylinders and pull the trigger again. 600 of the guns are empty, the remaining 3000 are pointed at 3000 of those survivors. 5 targets die, 20 targets are winged, 2975 targets are still standing plus the 570 that were facing empty guns. Thus we have 3545 still standing.

The problem is you are looking at the 3570 initial survivors and concluding that only 25 get hurt/killed rather than 30, but you're failing to count those 30, in practice firing twice means 55 hurt/killed.

If the virus ever mutates to the point that the vaccine-induced antibodies are useless we would simply be back where we started--no protection. At no point is your cumulative risk higher from having gotten the vaccine than not having gotten the vaccine.

Vanden Bossche would not agree for several reasons as i understand.

Vanden Bossche did not even address the argument I presented, want to try again?

As for his credibility, when I looked up his name I find:

Addressing Geert Vanden Bossche’s Claims — Deplatform Disease

The short version : Geert Vanden Bossche has recently published a letter in which he argues that the vaccination campaign against COVID-19 is going to precipitate a public health disaster because the vaccines will select for viral variants that can escape their protection and drive them towards high

www.deplatformdisease.com

Not that i yet understand everything he writes.

From his new article.

Why are breakthrough infections with Omicron anything but a blessing and why will re-vaccination of C-19 vaccinees with an updated S(Omicron)-based C-19 vaccine make things even worse?

I am herewith reacting to the scientifically simplistic and naïve conclusions drawn in some recent scientific publications: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.04.01.486695v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.04.29.22274477v1.full.pdf

voiceforscienceandsolidarity.substack.com

"Why are breakthrough infections with Omicron anything but a blessing and why will re-vaccination of C-19 vaccinees with an updated S(Omicron)-based C-19 vaccine make things even worse?​

I am herewith reacting to the scientifically simplistic and naïve conclusions drawn in some recent scientific publications:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.04.01.486695v1.full.pdf

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.04.29.22274477v1.full.pdf

Retracted??

Note that he provided links to the .pdf files rather than links to the page about the paper that mentions things like retractions. That's because they aren't retracted!

Omicron breakthrough infection drives cross-variant neutralization and memory B cell formation

Omicron is the evolutionarily most distinct SARS-CoV-2 variant (VOC) to date and displays multiple amino acid alterations located in neutralizing antibody sites of the spike (S) protein. We report here that Omicron breakthrough infection in BNT162b2 vaccinated individuals results in strong...

www.biorxiv.org

Omicron sub-lineages BA.4/BA.5 escape BA.1 infection elicited neutralizing immunity

The SARS-CoV-2 Omicron (B.1.1.529) variant first emerged as the BA.1 sub-lineage, with extensive escape from neutralizing immunity elicited by previous infection with other variants, vaccines, or combinations of both[1][1],[2][2]. Two new sub-lineages, BA.4 and BA.5, are now emerging in South...

www.medrxiv.org

If they were retracted it would show up on the pages I linked, although I do not believe it would show up in the .pdfs.

Your source is lying. What else is he lying about?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

OMG!

I did not know there is right wing science.

Yeah, it's distinguished from real science by being total garbage.

Some sites want to sell that he´s "just a vet". That´s not true of course.

And the CEO of Pfizer is also a vet.


Instead of posting your dangerous garbage let´s discuss the what he´s saying and writing.

I´m no expert but i´m afraid he may be right.

You're the one posting dangerous garbage.

Let's look at your vet's fundamental claim: Vaccines make a disease more virulent.

This is completely false. The only evolutionary pressure vaccines induce is towards immune escape--but that pressure is simply a function of how much resistance develops, whether it's from prior infection or vaccination is irrelevant. Diseases have no objective to kill you, the evolutionary pressure is for things which make the disease spread better. (However, there are some diseases where the same thing does both. Cholera spreads better when you shit yourself uncontrollably, but shitting yourself uncontrollably is also how it kills.) For the most part the evolutionary pressure is the other way around--a host that gets too sick isn't moving around amongst the population to be spreading the disease and thus it is a disadvantage to the disease to cause serious illness. Covid is actually unusual in this regard as most of the spread occurs before the host knows they are sick and thus severity has little to do with how well it spreads.

And while I've taken the vaccine from that CEO of Pfizer I'm not going to him for medical advice. His primary skill is management, not medicine.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Bossche is taking a huge risk. Look at his CV.

You prefer to trust Snopes who may be taking orders from Big Pharma and others to publish "fact checking" articles. Ok then.

Please check what you're posting!

Your link goes to an article title, it has no body. The URL goes to a site that my system is flagging as conspiracy-psuedoscience, but there's no way to evaluate it as it's dead, someone has picked up the domain name and is pointing it at gambling ads.

The subreddit you're pointing to identifies itself "We hope to challenge issues which have captured the public’s imagination, from JFK and UFOs to 9/11." That's not a credible source of information.

 

[JohnG]

Hi jdf5 - again, I strongly urge you to check out TWIV (This week in Virology) They interview tons of highly experienced virologists and immunologists who have been doing this stuff for decades - and there are many viewpoints. It's a bit dry at times, and technical, but you seem to have a genuine interest in that stuff.

They go over all these new studies and dissect them, sometimes critical, sometimes supportive and not always in agreement. It's very nuanced. I think you would enjoy it and get a lot out of it.

The upside is you hear many highly qualified voices and their viewpoints.

Thanks! Do you know where they discuss immune imprinting and that antibodies from vaxx may outcompete naturally induced abs?

Check out this episode for example. There are several where they discuss natural vs vaccine immune responses. It's all data driven (as it should be)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Ok i read the first part of the Snopes article.

You now have the study about immune imprinting or OAS in my first post showing that vaccinated do not produce antibodies for new variants.
Bossche mention other studies to. Will try to understand what they are saying.

What I find ridiculous here is we have widespread evidence showing the vaccinated are doing more than a magnitude better when it comes to hospitalizations and deaths than the unvaccinated. Alpha, Delta, Omicron, Omicron BA.1, etc...

The data for this is overwhelming. But we are told there must be a technicality and we are doomed... soon.

Perhaps that was true. But let´s stick to science so people are ready for whatever happens.

That's what we are doing, it's not what you are doing.