• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

Danica Roem

Don2 (Don1 Revised)

Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2004
Messages
14,438
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
non-practicing agnostic
A transgender candidate defeated an incumbent Virginia lawmaker Tuesday who sponsored a bill that would have restricted which bathrooms she could use.

Democrat Danica Roem, a former journalist, is set to make history as the first openly transgender person elected and seated in a state legislature in the United States. She unseated Republican Del. Bob Marshall, one of the state's longest serving and most socially conservative lawmakers. The race was one of the year's most high-profile, drawing international attention and big money to the northern Virginia House of Delegates district outside the nation's capital.

"It's historic. ... It sends a message to politicians everywhere that the politics of bigotry is over," Democratic House Caucus Chair Charniele Herring said.
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-danica-roem-20171107-story.html

So let me make sure I get this straight...

A transgender woman Democrat beat not just a Republican, but an incumbent Republican in a red state.

My optimism about my country and humanity are renewed.
 
A transgender candidate defeated an incumbent Virginia lawmaker Tuesday who sponsored a bill that would have restricted which bathrooms she could use.

Democrat Danica Roem, a former journalist, is set to make history as the first openly transgender person elected and seated in a state legislature in the United States. She unseated Republican Del. Bob Marshall, one of the state's longest serving and most socially conservative lawmakers. The race was one of the year's most high-profile, drawing international attention and big money to the northern Virginia House of Delegates district outside the nation's capital.

"It's historic. ... It sends a message to politicians everywhere that the politics of bigotry is over," Democratic House Caucus Chair Charniele Herring said.
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-danica-roem-20171107-story.html

So let me make sure I get this straight...

A transgender woman Democrat beat not just a Republican, but an incumbent Republican in a red state.

My optimism about my country and humanity are renewed.

Me too. Glad to hear the politics of bigotry is over.
 
A transgender candidate defeated an incumbent Virginia lawmaker Tuesday who sponsored a bill that would have restricted which bathrooms she could use.

Democrat Danica Roem, a former journalist, is set to make history as the first openly transgender person elected and seated in a state legislature in the United States. She unseated Republican Del. Bob Marshall, one of the state's longest serving and most socially conservative lawmakers. The race was one of the year's most high-profile, drawing international attention and big money to the northern Virginia House of Delegates district outside the nation's capital.

"It's historic. ... It sends a message to politicians everywhere that the politics of bigotry is over," Democratic House Caucus Chair Charniele Herring said.
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-danica-roem-20171107-story.html

So let me make sure I get this straight...

A transgender woman Democrat beat not just a Republican, but an incumbent Republican in a red state.

My optimism about my country and humanity are renewed.

Virginia has been Blue nationally for the last three cycles.
 
Here is what Bob Marshall's sister had to say about his loss to Danica Roem:

That was my brother who lost his seat in the House of Delegates race in Va. He wouldn’t debate her. He wouldn’t call her ‘her’ or ‘she’. Maybe if weren’t so judgmental and homophobic, he could have lost with dignity. I’m not happy my brother lost his job, but all I can say is, karma brother.

https://twitter.com/AaronTheH/status/928097726050340864/photo/1
 
And the FACT is that Danica Roem is a woman.
Even referring to "her" as a transgender woman betrays the fact that he is a man.

How about we take a look at his birth certificate?

Things were so much easier when it was received wisdom that there were two, only two and precisely two human genders. But it turns out that that assessment is simplistic, unrepresentative of humanity, and fundamentally wrong.

Rather like when Pluto was declared not to be a planet, a lot of the simpler folks are certain that 'easier' meant 'better', and that we can simply choose not to change; But those folks are wrong on all counts. The facts haven't changed at all; Pluto never should have been considered a planet, and trans-gender people never should have been considered to have the gender indicated by examining their genitalia at birth (and if necessary, modifying them to fit one of the two predetermined categories). We were wrong in the past, and choosing to remain wrong once new facts come to light is just fucking stupid.

You should stop doing it; it only indicates to others that you are a slow learner, who would rather cling to his old errors than be polite to the other people of all genders that you share the planet with.

You can correct your error, or be wrong; There are (perhaps ironically) only these two possibilities for you at this stage in human history.
 
Yes there might be something learned. That the public is not really as rasist as CNN and MSNBC, and Oberman says we are. And that maybe Trump was NOT elected because of such idiot reasons. That perhaps America really wanted nothing to do with globalism, TPP, and Hillary's corruption after all...
 
And the FACT is that Danica Roem is a woman.
Even referring to "her" as a transgender woman betrays the fact that he is a man.
Oh... "betray", how vicious (or is it viscous) sounding. Which word means, 'oh boo fucking hoo for you'?
How about we take a look at his birth certificate?
I know really! And I only use leaches to cure myself of diseases. If it wasn't a medicinal solution 400 years ago, I don't want to hear about it. New knowledge is fake news!
 
Rather like when Pluto was declared not to be a planet, a lot of the simpler folks are certain that 'easier' meant 'better', and that we can simply choose not to change; But those folks are wrong on all counts. The facts haven't changed at all; Pluto never should have been considered a planet... We were wrong in the past, and choosing to remain wrong once new facts come to light is just ... stupid.
You appear to be claiming scientific objectivity for a change in terminological taste. Why do you think Pluto never should have been considered a planet? What grounds do you have for thinking the people who decided to call it a planet were wrong, as opposed to merely applying a different convention from a convention they had no reason to foresee would suddenly become fashionable 76 years in the future? Which prediction of an observation followed from the hypothesis that Pluto was a planet, the failure of which prediction qualifies as "new facts coming to light"? How is what you're saying any different from claiming that the tradition of calling Garth Mountain "Garth Mountain" was a mistake and it should always have been called "Garth Hill"?

(And no, this is not a derail.)
 
Could anyone who claims (or anyone interested) Danica Roem is a woman provide an argument and/or sufficient evidence of that?
I have read plenty claims made by transgender people and their advocates, and I have not seen enough evidence to make it not epistemically irrational on my part to believe that Roem is a woman.

One argument for Danica Roem to be a woman would be something along the lines of:

1. There is such thing as a male brain/mind and a female brain/mind.
2. Danica Roem has a female brain/mind (close enough; it doesn't have to be a perfect match to a typical female brain/mind).
3. The ordinary meaning of the word "woman" is such that it tracks brains/minds rather than, say, sexual organs, or it tracks several things but in case of conflict, brain/minds prevail (as opposed to, say, the person being still a man, or neither a man nor a woman, etc.), or something like this.

Establishing 1. should be easy, though it's usually in conflict with a common leftist ideological view, which actually denies it, so left-wingers usually avoid it. That's not a problem for my assessment of 1., but it tends to block advocates of the claim that Roem is a woman from arguing in the only way it seems it has any shot.
Leaving that aside, 1. is true, but I don't see sufficient evidence to warrant the belief that 2. is true. Anyone could provide that evidence?
Roem has/had male sexual and reproductive organs, which almost always go together with male brain/minds, so that's strong evidence to overcome.
Roem's observations about Roem's own mind could provide counter evidence, and so do some studies about people with male sexual organs who claim to be women. But it's not nearly enough - at least, what I've seen - to warrant belief that 2. is true, though it seems enough to leave that possibility open (i.e., to make the belief that 2. is false unwarranted). Still, maybe I have not seen enough evidence.
As for 3., there is some evidence from fictional characters and the way viewers treat them that support 3., but there is also counter evidence from the usage of other people, and further, there is evidence that e different people using the word "woman" differently so that in the usage of some, it tracks (at least predominantly) brains/minds, whereas in the usage of others, it does not. It's hard for me to establish whether there is a clear majority here.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that the argument above is usually given by people who claim that Danica Roem is a woman. Usually, those who make such claims give no argument whatsoever, or if they do, they don't make any claims like 1. But I just haven't seen any other argument that has any chance of working.

Also, I'm not asking for evidence that Danica Roem is a woman according to the usage of the word "woman" among a minority of English speakers (or native English speakers). If the claim is that only that Danica Roem is a woman according to the usage of the word "woman" among a minority of English speakers (or native English speakers), that's another matter, but such claim would not warrant concluding that the claim that Danica Roem is not a woman - made by people who doesn't use the word "woman" in that sense - is false, or that Danica Roem should not have been classified as a male when born, or that people in the past who called anyone with a penis a man were mistaken, or that Danica Roem or anyone else with male sexual and reproductive organs realized that she was a woman (as opposed to something like "he decided to use the word 'woman' differently, and called himself a woman even though he was a man by the way the word was used previously", etc.).

Still, another way to argue for the claim that Danica Roem is a woman might be to argue that the word "woman" has changed meaning, and now predominant usage among English speakers is that anyone who identifies as a woman is a woman, or something along those lines. That does not seem warranted, though I'm open to the evidence. But if that were true, that surely would not warrant claim that someone realized she was a woman, etc., or that those who said otherwise in the past were in error, etc.
 
The distinction between sex and gender differentiates sex (the anatomy of an individual's reproductive system, and secondary sex characteristics) from gender, which can refer to either social roles based on the sex of the person (gender role) or personal identification of one's own gender based on an internal awareness (gender identity).[1][2] In some circumstances, an individual's assigned sex and gender do not align, and the person may be transgender.[1] In some cases, an individual may have biological sex characteristics that complicate sex assignment, and the person may be intersex.

The sex and gender distinction is not universal. In ordinary speech, sex and gender are often used interchangeably.[3][4] Some dictionaries and academic disciplines give them different definitions while others do not.

Among scientists, the term sex differences (as compared to gender differences) is typically applied to sexually dimorphic traits that are hypothesized to be evolved consequences of sexual selection.[5][6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction
 
Could anyone who claims (or anyone interested) Danica Roem is a woman provide an argument and/or sufficient evidence of that?
I have read plenty claims made by transgender people and their advocates, and I have not seen enough evidence to make it not epistemically irrational on my part to believe that Roem is a woman.

One argument for Danica Roem to be a woman would be something along the lines of:

1. There is such thing as a male brain/mind and a female brain/mind.
2. Danica Roem has a female brain/mind (close enough; it doesn't have to be a perfect match to a typical female brain/mind).
3. The ordinary meaning of the word "woman" is such that it tracks brains/minds rather than, say, sexual organs, or it tracks several things but in case of conflict, brain/minds prevail (as opposed to, say, the person being still a man, or neither a man nor a woman, etc.), or something like this.

Establishing 1. should be easy, though it's usually in conflict with a common leftist ideological view, which actually denies it, so left-wingers usually avoid it. That's not a problem for my assessment of 1., but it tends to block advocates of the claim that Roem is a woman from arguing in the only way it seems it has any shot.
Leaving that aside, 1. is true, but I don't see sufficient evidence to warrant the belief that 2. is true. Anyone could provide that evidence?
Roem has/had male sexual and reproductive organs, which almost always go together with male brain/minds, so that's strong evidence to overcome.
Roem's observations about Roem's own mind could provide counter evidence, and so do some studies about people with male sexual organs who claim to be women. But it's not nearly enough - at least, what I've seen - to warrant belief that 2. is true, though it seems enough to leave that possibility open (i.e., to make the belief that 2. is false unwarranted). Still, maybe I have not seen enough evidence.
As for 3., there is some evidence from fictional characters and the way viewers treat them that support 3., but there is also counter evidence from the usage of other people, and further, there is evidence that e different people using the word "woman" differently so that in the usage of some, it tracks (at least predominantly) brains/minds, whereas in the usage of others, it does not. It's hard for me to establish whether there is a clear majority here.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that the argument above is usually given by people who claim that Danica Roem is a woman. Usually, those who make such claims give no argument whatsoever, or if they do, they don't make any claims like 1. But I just haven't seen any other argument that has any chance of working.

Also, I'm not asking for evidence that Danica Roem is a woman according to the usage of the word "woman" among a minority of English speakers (or native English speakers). If the claim is that only that Danica Roem is a woman according to the usage of the word "woman" among a minority of English speakers (or native English speakers), that's another matter, but such claim would not warrant concluding that the claim that Danica Roem is not a woman - made by people who doesn't use the word "woman" in that sense - is false, or that Danica Roem should not have been classified as a male when born, or that people in the past who called anyone with a penis a man were mistaken, or that Danica Roem or anyone else with male sexual and reproductive organs realized that she was a woman (as opposed to something like "he decided to use the word 'woman' differently, and called himself a woman even though he was a man by the way the word was used previously", etc.).

Still, another way to argue for the claim that Danica Roem is a woman might be to argue that the word "woman" has changed meaning, and now predominant usage among English speakers is that anyone who identifies as a woman is a woman, or something along those lines. That does not seem warranted, though I'm open to the evidence. But if that were true, that surely would not warrant claim that someone realized she was a woman, etc., or that those who said otherwise in the past were in error, etc.

She's a woman because she wants to be and is in some stage of transition. I don't need to know what stage nor do I need to inspect genitals to accept that she's a woman. She is not trying to deceive or pretend; she's telling us who she is. The conservative view seems to want to look down the pants of anyone who does not conform to black and white concepts or kowtow to the right wing mentality's assumption that they are everyone's judge.

This is not weak ideology or ambivalence. It is simply a lack of fear in the face of human reality that does not fit the childish cartoons that underlie the fear-based conservative world view.
 
Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
The distinction between sex and gender differentiates sex (the anatomy of an individual's reproductive system, and secondary sex characteristics) from gender, which can refer to either social roles based on the sex of the person (gender role) or personal identification of one's own gender based on an internal awareness (gender identity).

By that technical distinction, Roem's sex would be male, gender identity would be female, and gender role would be difficult to ascertain. But that does not provide any good reason to think that Roem is a woman, in the ordinary sense of the word "woman", let alone justify claims that they realized they were a woman, etc., in any ordinary sense.

Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
The sex and gender distinction is not universal. In ordinary speech, sex and gender are often used interchangeably.[3][4] Some dictionaries and academic disciplines give them different definitions while others do not.
How often?
In any case, that is hardly good reason to think that in the ordinary, usual sense of the term, Roem is a woman.

Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
Among scientists, the term sex differences (as compared to gender differences) is typically applied to sexually dimorphic traits that are hypothesized to be evolved consequences of sexual selection.
Again, I'm not following how that is supposed to make a case for Roem's being a woman. And if it's not supposed to do that, I'm not sure what your goal is. Could you clarify, please?
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom