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David Koresh Rose from the Dead

SLD

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Several women reported it. He appeared to his remaining disciples later. Then he promised to come back, real soon, and cleanse the entire world of unbelievers. It’s all in the gospel of Koresh, which at present is just oral. Soon it will take over the world.

Prove me wrong.
 
I'm DK, still dead, but my spirit lives like Sauron. The women are unclean infidels. My time has not yet come.

Prove me wrong.
 
Several women reported it. He appeared to his remaining disciples later. Then he promised to come back, real soon, and cleanse the entire world of unbelievers. It’s all in the gospel of Koresh, which at present is just oral. Soon it will take over the world.

Prove me wrong.
Could be a tough one SLD, how soon do you expect this to take over the world?
 
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I'm DK, still dead, but my spirit lives like Sauron. The women are unclean infidels. My time has not yet come.

Prove me wrong.
Do either of you have other witnesses beside yourselves? No disrespect to your new religions... Joseph Smith and Mohammed for example, had similar 'lonesome' experiences - lonesomly writing their doctrines. The bible :requires' several witnesses, which is actually an advantage, having several authors, despite the old debating rhetoric that erroneously suggested... that having many writers in the bible is problematic.
 
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I'm DK, still dead, but my spirit lives like Sauron. The women are unclean infidels. My time has not yet come.

Prove me wrong.
Do either of you have other witnesses beside yourselves? No disrespect to your new religions... Joseph Smith and Mohammed for example, had similar 'lonesome' experiences - lonesomly writing their doctrines. The bible :requires' several witnesses, which is actually an advantage, having several authors, despite the old debating rhetoric that erroneously suggested... that having many writers in the bible is problematic.
I think this is one of those things where one crtes an example to illustrate a point.

That is the same question we ask Christians like yourself. Witnesses to the Jesus resurrection, other than a few lines in an ancirnt 2000 year old text of unknown authorship? Four versions of Jesus stories which do not all align?
 
I think this is one of those things where one crtes an example to illustrate a point.

That is the same question we ask Christians like yourself. Witnesses to the Jesus resurrection, other than a few lines in an ancirnt 2000 year old text of unknown authorship? Four versions of Jesus stories which do not all align?
The OP might as well say, "I am the Jesus from 2000 years ago. Prove me wrong." There simply is no such proof.
 
I consider it extremely likely that Koresh will continue to be an object of belief and hope for a small community, either the same movement or syncretized into a future nativist revitalization movement that accepts him into its pantheon of slain marytyrs. And the existence of that group and its beliefs will be a fact. But testimony about someone actually rising from the dead is a fact only insofar as it is apt to be an accurate decription of what the teller believes. Posthumous sightings of loved ones are a very common phenomenon, whereas there is very little evidence of resuscitated bodies.
 
I'm DK, still dead, but my spirit lives like Sauron. The women are unclean infidels. My time has not yet come.

Prove me wrong.
Do either of you have other witnesses beside yourselves? No disrespect to your new religions... Joseph Smith and Mohammed for example, had similar 'lonesome' experiences - lonesomly writing their doctrines. The bible :requires' several witnesses, which is actually an advantage, having several authors, despite the old debating rhetoric that erroneously suggested... that having many writers in the bible is problematic.
I think this is one of those things where one crtes an example to illustrate a point. That is the same question we ask Christians like yourself. Witnesses to the Jesus resurrection, other than a few lines in an ancirnt 2000 year old text of unknown authorship?
We know the authorship are separate people, so these stories are from different perspectives. You say the authors are "unknown", even though the early church has good reason attributing these four names to the 4 Gospels, which is a lot more lines than you previously state. As there seems to be a meme going here ... prove me wrong. 😉

Four versions of Jesus stories which do not all align?
How much between them is not aligned? And how much of it, is? Having four stories quite close to identical... would be a little suspicious! Just as it would be, through the eyes of experienced investigators, when several witnesses are being questioned, describing close to.. word for word, about what they claim they saw... about a particular crucial event .
 
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I'm DK, still dead, but my spirit lives like Sauron. The women are unclean infidels. My time has not yet come.

Prove me wrong.
Do either of you have other witnesses beside yourselves? No disrespect to your new religions... Joseph Smith and Mohammed for example, had similar 'lonesome' experiences - lonesomly writing their doctrines. The bible :requires' several witnesses, which is actually an advantage, having several authors, despite the old debating rhetoric that erroneously suggested... that having many writers in the bible is problematic.
I think this is one of those things where one crtes an example to illustrate a point. That is the same question we ask Christians like yourself. Witnesses to the Jesus resurrection, other than a few lines in an ancirnt 2000 year old text of unknown authorship?
We know the authorship are separate people, so these stories are from different perspectives. You say the authors are "unknown", even though the early church has good reason attributing these four names to the 4 Gospels, which is a lot more lines than you previously state. As there seems to be a meme going here ... prove me wrong. 😉

Four versions of Jesus stories which do not all align?
How much between them is not aligned? And how much of it, is? Having four stories quite close to identical... would be a little suspicious! Just as it would be, through the eyes of experienced investigators, when several witnesses are being questioned, describing close to.. word for word, about what they claim they saw... about a particular crucial event .
But again, several witnesses say they saw Koresh risen from the dead. Multiple wiesses have claimed for decades seeing a tall large humanoid creature in the wild.

How are those any less credible then Jesus reported risen from death?

How abut Mormons? Joseph Smith said an angel appeared and gave him a tablet or two. Souds lie it that is based on Moses and his tablet from god. Myths evolve and build on previous myths.

Joseph Smith said the Book of Mormon was translated from writing on golden plates in a reformed Egyptian language, translated with the assistance of the Urim and Thummim and seer stones. He said an angel first showed him the location of the plates in 1823, buried in a nearby hill. With the assistance of Martin Harris, an early follower, Smith began dictating the text of the Book of Mormon on April 12, 1828. Although translation was interrupted by persecution, Smith's continued employment in order to support his family, and Harris's loss of 116 pages, the Book of Mormon manuscript was finished in June 1829.[15] Smith said the plates were returned to the angel after he finished the translation. During the time Smith said he possessed the plates, 15 people were allowed to witness their existence.

The Book of Mormon claims to be a chronicle of early Israelites who left the Near East and traveled to the Americas. The book begins c. 600 BC with the departure from Jerusalem of the family of the prophet Lehi at the urging of God, and their sailing c. 589 BC to the Americas. It records the people of the Americas as having had a belief in Christ hundreds of years before his birth, their witnessing his personal visitation to them after his resurrection, and eventually losing Christianity after generations of wars and apostasy. The Book of Mormon and continuing revelations would be the means of establishing correct doctrine for the restored church. Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and other early followers began baptizing new converts in 1829 and formally organized in 1830 as the Church of Christ.[16] Smith was seen by his followers as a modern-day prophet.[17]

Why not?

There is a story that when the original Mormon temple was being built angels were flying around inside.


If you acknowledge that you would not expect the gospels to be the same, why would expect the supernatural stories to be true?
 
From The Khoresh/Christ Nexus by John Hagee and Jack Van Impe (Ezekiel's Exalted Hiccup Press 2018)

True for both Khoresh and Christ:
> claimed lineage back to King David
> stepfather was....a CARPENTER...
> claimed gift of prophecy
> drew a small coterie of the faithful around himself
> predicted his own martyrdom
> put to death by authorities...at AGE 33...
> revered by today's MAGA crowd


As we know, 7 coincidences = article of faith.
But wait, there's more. You can buy David Khoresh Superstar as an MP3 download at Amazon.
As Marjorie Taylor Greene would say, "Whom is fooling whom?????"
 
whereas there is very little evidence of resuscitated bodies.
You are being too accommodating. There is equally as much evidence for flying pigs.
It's worse than that, Jim. Death is defined as that state from which a body cannot recover. And this definition is a prerequisite for resurrection to be considered miraculous.

If your heart stops, you can be saved from death by a defibrillator; Therefore by definition you were not dead, despite your heart having stopped beating - unless the defibrillator cannot restart you heart, and your brain activity ceases.

But not long ago, most places declared you legally dead if your heart stopped.

The definition of death changes to accommodate any circumstance that renders your condition non-permanent.

If some future neurologist invents a device that can reverse brain death in some patients, then the cessation of brain activity will be replaced as the definition of death by some other standard.

By definition, a person who appears to be dead, no matter how convincingly, and no matter by what criteria, who is at some later time alive, was not in fact dead.

Resurrection isn't so much a miracle, as it is a misunderstanding of what people mean when they say "He's dead".

Now, of course, one could argue that my definition of "dead" here is not the same as other people's definitions. Which is true - as I mentioned above, some people will say that, for example, a person whose heart stops beating is "dead", or that a person who has no detectable breath, or no detectable brain activity, is "dead".

But my point is that such looser definitions of death don't allow people to claim miraculous resurrection either - if you adhere to any less final definition of "death", then you immediately render resurrection a banal and commonplace phenomenon for which no divine intervention, no miraculous event, is required.

Either no resurrections have ever occurred; Or they are such a routine occurrence that no special significance can be assigned to the event, and no particular importance attaches to those who have "returned to life".

By declaring resurrection to be a miracle, we must necessarily imply that death is permanent, and that therefore any diagnosis of "death" is unavoidably a mistake if the patient is noted to be alive at some future juncture.

Misdiagnosis is not a miracle from God, it's just an error from man.
 
I'm DK, still dead, but my spirit lives like Sauron. The women are unclean infidels. My time has not yet come.

Prove me wrong.
Do either of you have other witnesses beside yourselves? No disrespect to your new religions... Joseph Smith and Mohammed for example, had similar 'lonesome' experiences - lonesomly writing their doctrines. The bible :requires' several witnesses, which is actually an advantage, having several authors, despite the old debating rhetoric that erroneously suggested... that having many writers in the bible is problematic.
Who witnessed the Bible writers write the Bible? People can lie and make up stories with made up eyewitnesses to made up events events.

The whole city of Uruk went out to watch Gilgamesh and Enkidu beat the crap out of the bull of heaven.

The Book of Mormon records King Benjamin giving a speech to his people in a large tower so he could to be seen by all and arrows fired by bad people miraculously miss him. In another event witnesses saw a cloud fly down from heaven and refresh the righteous when they were exhausted by their enemies. And of course Jesus appeared to many witnesses in America . Its eyewitness testimony according to a book so you cant doubt it. We are expected to accept truth claims of supposed witnesses to the empty tomb of Jesus and even the events at Sinai by the Jews a thousand years earlier so it is only logical witness testimony proves the story of Gilgamesh true and the American Jews in the Book of Mormon too. If the last two can just be stories about eyewitness events invented by the author then the first two can be too. And many Mormons died for their beliefs so they got the martyr card to play too.
 
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The Bible is basically the “best of
he said/she said“ of 2000 years ago.
 
I'm DK, still dead, but my spirit lives like Sauron. The women are unclean infidels. My time has not yet come.

Prove me wrong.
Do either of you have other witnesses beside yourselves? No disrespect to your new religions... Joseph Smith and Mohammed for example, had similar 'lonesome' experiences - lonesomly writing their doctrines. The bible :requires' several witnesses, which is actually an advantage, having several authors, despite the old debating rhetoric that erroneously suggested... that having many writers in the bible is problematic.
I think this is one of those things where one crtes an example to illustrate a point. That is the same question we ask Christians like yourself. Witnesses to the Jesus resurrection, other than a few lines in an ancirnt 2000 year old text of unknown authorship?
We know the authorship are separate people, so these stories are from different perspectives. You say the authors are "unknown", even though the early church has good reason attributing these four names to the 4 Gospels, which is a lot more lines than you previously state. As there seems to be a meme going here ... prove me wrong. 😉

Four versions of Jesus stories which do not all align?
How much between them is not aligned? And how much of it, is? Having four stories quite close to identical... would be a little suspicious! Just as it would be, through the eyes of experienced investigators, when several witnesses are being questioned, describing close to.. word for word, about what they claim they saw... about a particular crucial event .
But again, several witnesses say they saw Koresh risen from the dead. Multiple wiesses have claimed for decades seeing a tall large humanoid creature in the wild.

How are those any less credible then Jesus reported risen from death?
I see, so...

... are these Koresh witnesses claiming this fulfils the bible prophecy, that rather than Jesus this is about Koresh, or, this is a prophesied fulfilment from their particular doctrinal belief?

Either of the two prophecy sources you take to, will have the same result, revealing one is the imitation.


How abut Mormons? Joseph Smith said an angel appeared and gave him a tablet or two. Souds lie it that is based on Moses and his tablet from god. Myths evolve and build on previous myths.

Depending how one sees it, I think I could also agree with you here.


* To be noted: They would like people to cease from calling them Mormons.. From their site:

"When a shortened reference is needed, the terms “the Church” or the “Church of Jesus Christ” are encouraged. The “restored Church of Jesus Christ” is also accurate and encouraged.

When referring to Church members, the terms “members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” or “Latter-day Saints” are preferred. We ask that the term “Mormons” not be used."


Joseph Smith said the Book of Mormon was translated from writing on golden plates in a reformed Egyptian language, translated with the assistance of the Urim and Thummim and seer stones. He said an angel first showed him the location of the plates in 1823, buried in a nearby hill. With the assistance of Martin Harris, an early follower, Smith began dictating the text of the Book of Mormon on April 12, 1828. Although translation was interrupted by persecution, Smith's continued employment in order to support his family, and Harris's loss of 116 pages, the Book of Mormon manuscript was finished in June 1829.[15] Smith said the plates were returned to the angel after he finished the translation. During the time Smith said he possessed the plates, 15 people were allowed to witness their existence.

I wouldn't find any issues with 15 people claiming to have witnessed the existence of gold plates. The angel is crucial though.

The Book of Mormon claims to be a chronicle of early Israelites who left the Near East and traveled to the Americas. The book begins c. 600 BC with the departure from Jerusalem of the family of the prophet Lehi at the urging of God, and their sailing c. 589 BC to the Americas. It records the people of the Americas as having had a belief in Christ hundreds of years before his birth, their witnessing his personal visitation to them after his resurrection, and eventually losing Christianity after generations of wars and apostasy. The Book of Mormon and continuing revelations would be the means of establishing correct doctrine for the restored church. Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and other early followers began baptizing new converts in 1829 and formally organized in 1830 as the Church of Christ.[16] Smith was seen by his followers as a modern-day prophet.[17]

Why not?

There is a story that when the original Mormon temple was being built angels were flying around inside.


If you acknowledge that you would not expect the gospels to be the same, why would expect the supernatural stories to be true?

Jesus’s teachings: a divine blueprint

Within Jesus Christ’s teachings we find the plan for our happiness, our redemption, and our salvation—a divine blueprint that includes faith in Christ, repentance, baptism, keeping God’s commandments, receiving the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end. These are the saving principles taught by Jesus Christ, the bedrock on which His Gospel is built.
Yes well here's their view, from their site:


Become Christlike

The invitation to follow Jesus is an invitation to follow His example and to become like Him. Learn of Him and seek to incorporate His attributes into your life. Through the power of His grace, you can become a better, more Christlike person.

Faith

When you have faith in Christ, you believe in Him as the Son of God, the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh. You accept Him as your Savior and Redeemer and follow His teachings. You believe that your sins can be forgiven because of His atoning sacrifice. Faith in Him means that you trust Him and are confident that He loves you.
Faith is a principle of power. God works by power, but His power is usually exercised in response to faith. He works according to the faith of His children. Doubt and fear are the opposites of faith. Your faith in Jesus Christ grows as you become better acquainted with Him and His teachings. As you explore the scriptures, you learn of His ways, His love for all people, and His commandments.



The Church of Latter day Saints members are very dedicated and I have to say, behave more Christlike than a lot of Christians. Personally (for obvious reasons), I am glad Jesus is their main focus, accepting Him as redeemer and saviour.


Perhaps in some cases, that's all that really matters. Another example like the thief who was crucified next to Jesus. who had 'no good works', nor seemed to know the scriptures, or the very least, didn't abide by them (not comparing to the 'Church of Jesus Christ'), but he had a moment of realisation and belief on Jesus.


Luke 23:39-43

39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
 
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(In any key, off key if you prefer)

You think woo, I think wow
You cry woo, I shout wow!
Woo, wow
Woohoo. wowser
Lets call the atheists scoff
 
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