Debate on the effectiveness of lavender tea (derail from "how many alcoholic drinks is your limit)

[angelo]

The placebo effect is why woo medicine exists at all. Homoeopathy and other similar woo is as useful to humans as is a belief in gods or magic.

 

[Emily Lake]

The placebo effect is why woo medicine exists at all. Homoeopathy and other similar woo is as useful to humans as is a belief in gods or magic.

Meh. Could be.

Of course, for tens of thousands of years herbal medicine was all there was for medicine. Are you of the opinion that all triage and treatment prior to the late 1900s was placebo effect?

 

[rousseau]

The placebo effect is why woo medicine exists at all. Homoeopathy and other similar woo is as useful to humans as is a belief in gods or magic.

The placebo effect is why woo medicine exists at all. Homoeopathy and other similar woo is as useful to humans as is a belief in gods or magic.

Meh. Could be.

Of course, for tens of thousands of years herbal medicine was all there was for medicine. Are you of the opinion that all triage and treatment prior to the late 1900s was placebo effect?

His argument is overly-simplistic and has mostly already been dealt with.

Here's how alternative medicines work:

1) Test them
2) Do they work? They work
3) Do they not work? They don't work

To say that all herbal medicines are placebo is just plain dumb, even if you have an axe to grind towards homeopathy in general. Nobody is suggesting that any type of supplement shouldn't be tested or put through the scientific method to prove it's efficacy. And nobody is suggesting we should continue using herbal methods if they've been proven ineffective.

But here's the thing:

If something hasn't been proven not to work, that leaves open the possibility that it actually does work. And many herbal medicines do work which tells us that just because something hasn't been scientifically proven to work doesn't mean it doesn't work.

And so claiming that something doesn't work without evidence is just as ill informed as people saying they do work without evidence.

 

[rousseau]

The last few nights I have had a couple of cups of Lavender tea (brewed from the flowers) with a drop of honey. Last night I had Chamomile (without the honey) and I slept just as well.

I do know I have been sleeping better having had the cup of tea before sleep. I usually drink it in bed while reading, and I have found myself falling asleep much more quickly and have been sleeping almost through the night. I will be starting my sleep diary again tonight (I took a week off as requested by the psychiatrist) so hopefully that is the start of the anecdotal evidence.

The last couple of weeks I've been replacing my morning coffee with a lower caffeine black tea, and been including lavender in some of my caffeine free teas throughout the day. I haven't been having trouble sleeping so don't take it before bed-time, but the cups during the day keep me mellow. There are times I actually get too mellow and need a bit of caffeine to wake me up again.

As for more studies for anyone that wants to do some serious research, here's a good link:

http://www.herbbee.com/essential-oil-studies/lavender-oil-studies/

As I mentioned earlier in the thread many of the studies specifically relating to insomnia are weak studies but do point in the affirmative.

 

[gmbteach]

Okay, may I suggest a little experiment?

All of us on here that drink herbal teas could MAYBE keep a diary of what they drink, for what reason and their perceived level of effectiveness. We are all intelligent people, so lets do something about it. I for one, am happy to keep a diary and share it on here.

Just a thought.

 

[angelo]

The placebo effect is why woo medicine exists at all. Homoeopathy and other similar woo is as useful to humans as is a belief in gods or magic.

Meh. Could be.

Of course, for tens of thousands of years herbal medicine was all there was for medicine. Are you of the opinion that all triage and treatment prior to the late 1900s was placebo effect?

Placebo is a very powerful tool the body uses to heal itself. In other words the power of mind over body has been tested in the lab and as I said earlier, it works as often as 30% of the time. When a new drug is tested, if it gets no better result than a sugar tablet at around 30% it's dropped and it's back to the drawing board/lab.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, may I suggest a little experiment?

All of us on here that drink herbal teas could MAYBE keep a diary of what they drink, for what reason and their perceived level of effectiveness. We are all intelligent people, so lets do something about it. I for one, am happy to keep a diary and share it on here.

Just a thought.

Wouldn't work with me as I'm a sceptic about anything that's not proven by science.

 

[gmbteach]

It's a Lavender tea tonight for me. It's quite cool so it will warm me up as well.

 

[Malintent]

In any case I don't need you to convince me of its lack of efficacy because I already know it works.

Perfect description of the placebo effect... or now that you are totally convinced, the Pavlovian response to the process / product... like the smell of coffee giving you a momentary feeling of alertness.

 

[rousseau]

The only evidence presented in this thread points to the efficacy of lavender. The evidence presented against the efficacy of lavender: there is none.

 

[gmbteach]

It's a Lavender tea tonight for me. It's quite cool so it will warm me up as well.

When I got to sleep, I slept. At least I was only lying awake for 2 hours last night, not all night like I usually do when stressed.

So that is ONE for Lavender at this end.

 

[Underseer]

I found this.................http://nccam.nih.gov/health/lavender/ataglance.htm

It says the exact same thing that I've already been saying: "there is little scientific evidence", in other words scientists can't say beyond a measure of reasonable doubt that it's effective, but the results are otherwise are inconclusive. More research would have to be done to say for sure.

In any case I don't need you to convince me of its lack of efficacy because I already know it works.

If the science is inconclusive, why are you seeking a conclusion?

 

[rousseau]

It says the exact same thing that I've already been saying: "there is little scientific evidence", in other words scientists can't say beyond a measure of reasonable doubt that it's effective, but the results are otherwise are inconclusive. More research would have to be done to say for sure.

In any case I don't need you to convince me of its lack of efficacy because I already know it works.

If the science is inconclusive, why are you seeking a conclusion?

I'm not. This conversation was started when I suggested that gmbteach use lavender for anxiety and sleep, and Angelo said it was placebo. If it wasn't split the conversation probably would have just died shortly.

 

[Emily Lake]

Okay, may I suggest a little experiment?

All of us on here that drink herbal teas could MAYBE keep a diary of what they drink, for what reason and their perceived level of effectiveness. We are all intelligent people, so lets do something about it. I for one, am happy to keep a diary and share it on here.

Just a thought.

It's a fantastic thought, and if I were just a smidge more organized, I would commit to it. Unfortunately, I've been unable to reliably keep a headache journal for my neurologist to study my migraines... so the chances of me remembering to write down what tea I drink and what effects I think I feel is effectively nil.

I will, however, attempt to give actual though to what teas I'm choosing and why, and whether they have seemed to make a difference.

I'll even see if I can tell any difference between when I prepare tea myself with my own ritual, and when my spouse prepares it for me... and whether I drink it while reading or watching TV or anything else.

 

[Emily Lake]

Placebo is a very powerful tool the body uses to heal itself. In other words the power of mind over body has been tested in the lab and as I said earlier, it works as often as 30% of the time. When a new drug is tested, if it gets no better result than a sugar tablet at around 30% it's dropped and it's back to the drawing board/lab.

And that perfectly explains why willow bark was used for most of human history to relieve so many pains and symptoms that it was one of the first substances refined.

Did you know there have never been any FDA tests on the refined and processed form of willow bark for the treatment of pain? Never. Isn't that amazing? They've done trials and approvals for the prevention of heart attack and stroke, but never ever for pain.

I suppose that means that by your logic, aspirin is nothing more than a placebo for headaches. Amazing.

 

[Juma]

Did you know there have never been any FDA tests on the refined and processed form of willow bark for the treatment of pain? Never. Isn't that amazing? They've done trials and approvals for the prevention of heart attack and stroke, but never ever for pain.

So by this you want to insinuate that noone has scientifically tested that aspirin works as a pain releiver? Or what? Your source for this is?

 

[Emily Lake]

Did you know there have never been any FDA tests on the refined and processed form of willow bark for the treatment of pain? Never. Isn't that amazing? They've done trials and approvals for the prevention of heart attack and stroke, but never ever for pain.

So by this you want to insinuate that noone has scientifically tested that aspirin works as a pain releiver? Or what? Your source for this is?

Are you asking me to provide you with a source for something that isn't there? To prove that a thing doesn't exist? Because so far as I know that can't be done.

I don't have a good answer for you here. I spent about 40 minutes trying to find one on the googler, and failed. Suffice to say that to the best of my knowledge, there have not been any clinical test of aspirin done for the indication of pain relief. It's been tested for prevention of heart attack and stroke, because it acts as a blood thinner. But so far as I know, it has never been scientifically tested for pain relief. I've had discussions about it in the context of the FDA contemplating requiring legacy OTC drugs to undergo clinical trials a few years back, but that's working from my recollection. You don't have to believe me, but I'd prefer you not imply that I'm dishonest simply because I can't prove the nonexistence of something

ETA: Before it gets lost in the jungle of arguments and derails that abound in these sorts of things, I'd like to point out that your comment is fun, but ultimately it's irrelevant. My point with respect to angelo still holds: just because something has not been tested does NOT mean that it is ONLY a placebo. Lack of testing does not indicate lack of efficacy. It indicates only that efficacy is not proven.

 

[ramoss]

It could very well be the reduction of the caffeine that is helping also. I am fairly sensitive to caffeine ,so I don't drink any after noon.

 

[gmbteach]

No tea last night at all, negative thoughts, and dreams about work - Not good.

 

[beero1000]

So by this you want to insinuate that noone has scientifically tested that aspirin works as a pain releiver? Or what? Your source for this is?

Are you asking me to provide you with a source for something that isn't there? To prove that a thing doesn't exist? Because so far as I know that can't be done.

I don't have a good answer for you here. I spent about 40 minutes trying to find one on the googler, and failed. Suffice to say that to the best of my knowledge, there have not been any clinical test of aspirin done for the indication of pain relief. It's been tested for prevention of heart attack and stroke, because it acts as a blood thinner. But so far as I know, it has never been scientifically tested for pain relief. I've had discussions about it in the context of the FDA contemplating requiring legacy OTC drugs to undergo clinical trials a few years back, but that's working from my recollection. You don't have to believe me, but I'd prefer you not imply that I'm dishonest simply because I can't prove the nonexistence of something

ETA: Before it gets lost in the jungle of arguments and derails that abound in these sorts of things, I'd like to point out that your comment is fun, but ultimately it's irrelevant. My point with respect to angelo still holds: just because something has not been tested does NOT mean that it is ONLY a placebo. Lack of testing does not indicate lack of efficacy. It indicates only that efficacy is not proven.

Nonsense. Aspirin and willow bark extract have been rigorously tested many times.
http://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(00)00442-3/abstract?cc=y?cc=y
http://www.phytomedicinejournal.com/article/S0944-7113(04)70036-7/abstract
http://archneur.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1032899
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/780041

As for lavender - there are studies on how it affects sleep, concluding a small to moderate benefit. Apparently, just the fragrance of lavender oil is sufficient to improve sleep and help with insomnia.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16520572
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16298774

 

[Emily Lake]

Are you asking me to provide you with a source for something that isn't there? To prove that a thing doesn't exist? Because so far as I know that can't be done.

I don't have a good answer for you here. I spent about 40 minutes trying to find one on the googler, and failed. Suffice to say that to the best of my knowledge, there have not been any clinical test of aspirin done for the indication of pain relief. It's been tested for prevention of heart attack and stroke, because it acts as a blood thinner. But so far as I know, it has never been scientifically tested for pain relief. I've had discussions about it in the context of the FDA contemplating requiring legacy OTC drugs to undergo clinical trials a few years back, but that's working from my recollection. You don't have to believe me, but I'd prefer you not imply that I'm dishonest simply because I can't prove the nonexistence of something

ETA: Before it gets lost in the jungle of arguments and derails that abound in these sorts of things, I'd like to point out that your comment is fun, but ultimately it's irrelevant. My point with respect to angelo still holds: just because something has not been tested does NOT mean that it is ONLY a placebo. Lack of testing does not indicate lack of efficacy. It indicates only that efficacy is not proven.

Nonsense. Aspirin and willow bark extract have been rigorously tested many times.
http://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(00)00442-3/abstract?cc=y?cc=y
http://www.phytomedicinejournal.com/article/S0944-7113(04)70036-7/abstract
http://archneur.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1032899
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/780041

As for lavender - there are studies on how it affects sleep, concluding a small to moderate benefit. Apparently, just the fragrance of lavender oil is sufficient to improve sleep and help with insomnia.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16520572
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16298774

I stand corrected. Apparently I don't know how to search for this kind of thing.