Dem Post Mortem

[Politesse]

I'm not so sure about that at all. Being motivated to vote against candidate X by choosing candidate Y does not necessarily mean one likes candidate Y.

Very true, and for my money that's exactly why the Harris campaign failed. By the numbers, a lot of people sat out this election, to disastrous effect. I'd be more pissed if I didn't see this outcome as kind of inevitable from the get-go. I was pretty sure Trump would win re-election if he tried, before either candidate was even in the race. When it comes to brass tacks, he's a rich East Coast guy with a rabid cult behind him, and his opponents were not. And that's before the asshole got himself shot. Neither organized a particularly strong or effective campaign, but Trump never needed to, and Biden/Harris would have needed to.

 

[Politesse]

Funny how you preach about how people should be respectful to others and not be rude, yet you violate these basic guidelines yourself constantly. Physician, heal thyself, as they say.

When have I ever said any such thing? There's a time and a place for table manners - at the dinner table, for instance - but I don't believe in beating around the bush if there's a problem in society and we're trying to discuss it. In a discussion forum.

 

[Bomb#20]

Harding/Coolidge, Hoover, Roosevelt/Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy/Johnson, Nixon/Ford, Carter, Reagan, GHW Bush, Clinton, GW Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden, Trump. How often is a president who serves out his whole term replaced by a different president from the same party? In a hundred years it's only happened twice. Harris was up against long odds, and to have won she'd have needed voters to believe the economy was going great. (Well, that or 25th-ing Biden and getting to be the sitting president.) "Trump's a fascist" was never going to sell.

 

[Swammerdami]

Harding/Coolidge, Hoover, Roosevelt/Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy/Johnson, Nixon/Ford, Carter, Reagan, GHW Bush, Clinton, GW Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden, Trump. How often is a president who serves out his whole term replaced by a different president from the same party? In a hundred years it's only happened twice. Harris was up against long odds, and to have won she'd have needed voters to believe the economy was going great. (Well, that or 25th-ing Biden and getting to be the sitting president.) "Trump's a fascist" was never going to sell.

In hindsight ... Biden should have resigned (or at least promised not to run for a 2nd term) sometime in 2023. No need to 25th him. The Ds would have had their primary, yet retained incumbency.

Biden is 82 years old already. If that's not too old to be POTUS, surely 86 is. Make up some medical condition if he needed to save face. Were Biden's mental powers diminishing in 2023? I dunno, but those who think he was still fine in 2024 did not watch the same debate I did.

Perhaps those close to Biden understood he was getting too old, but did not want to disappoint this good man. That was a real shame: Sacrificing American democracy to avoid hurting an oldster's feelings.

 

[Politesse]

Harding/Coolidge, Hoover, Roosevelt/Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy/Johnson, Nixon/Ford, Carter, Reagan, GHW Bush, Clinton, GW Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden, Trump. How often is a president who serves out his whole term replaced by a different president from the same party? In a hundred years it's only happened twice. Harris was up against long odds, and to have won she'd have needed voters to believe the economy was going great. (Well, that or 25th-ing Biden and getting to be the sitting president.) "Trump's a fascist" was never going to sell.

Depressing, but true.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

That more closely aligns to what I see as name-calling from the Republicans.

I'm starting to wonder how many Republicans you in fact know. Seriously? You've never met someone who uses racial slurs? How do you even recognize them as slurs if you've never heard them used? What a lovely pixie fantasy land you seem to inhabit!

I remember one side of my family using slurs on my branch because my grandfather married "the blonde". But that wasn't partisan politics so it you probably don't count it.

 

[thebeave]

Funny how you preach about how people should be respectful to others and not be rude, yet you violate these basic guidelines yourself constantly. Physician, heal thyself, as they say.

When have I ever said any such thing? There's a time and a place for table manners - at the dinner table, for instance - but I don't believe in beating around the bush if there's a problem in society and we're trying to discuss it. In a discussion forum.

Certainly one of the main reasons not to use racial slurs is because its disrespectful and rude, not to mention demeaning. And yet, you consistently and without provocation use rude and disrepectful language to many on this forum, myself included. You even admit to being rude, almost proudly even. Here's your latest examples a few posts back:

Maybe y'all really do just live on the internet and never go outside? Or maybe you just don't notice slurs when they're used because you are so accustomed to them? I don't know how to explain this otherwise.

Beaner. You know, I really don't like typing that shit out, but there you go. You're welcome. Annoyed to be a part of your education.

"Small towns hundreds of miles from you" are also a part of your state. You really don't get out much, do you?

 

[laughing dog]

Someone didn’t get his crustless watercress sandwich at tea time.

 

[Politesse]

Funny how you preach about how people should be respectful to others and not be rude, yet you violate these basic guidelines yourself constantly. Physician, heal thyself, as they say.

When have I ever said any such thing? There's a time and a place for table manners - at the dinner table, for instance - but I don't believe in beating around the bush if there's a problem in society and we're trying to discuss it. In a discussion forum.

Certainly one of the main reasons not to use racial slurs is because its disrespectful and rude, not to mention demeaning. And yet, you consistently and without provocation use rude and disrepectful language to many on this forum, myself included. You even admit to being rude, almost proudly even. Here's your latest examples a few posts back:

Maybe y'all really do just live on the internet and never go outside? Or maybe you just don't notice slurs when they're used because you are so accustomed to them? I don't know how to explain this otherwise.

Beaner. You know, I really don't like typing that shit out, but there you go. You're welcome. Annoyed to be a part of your education.

"Small towns hundreds of miles from you" are also a part of your state. You really don't get out much, do you?

I think we just have different ways of seeing the world. Racial slurs are a serious matter, to me. They demean and dehumanize other people, and encourage false and dangerous ways of thinking about the world. That makes them far, far more dangerous than "rudeness". Whereas you? Coming on here and claiming that other people are just pretending that racial slurs exist? Sorry, but comforting that delusion of yours is just not worth the trouble of protecting. No one owes you kid gloves, in a discussion of a real and weighty topic, a discussion that you voluntarily interjected yourself into specifically to make a very dubious claim. Why should I care whether your feelings are hurt by my calling a spade a spade, when what you are trying to do is downplay if not outright deny the realities of racial inequality?

To me, denying the experiences of other people and the problems they face is far more rude, and in a more important way, than... what, being a little disrespectful in my choice of words? You may whine and cry about it, but I don't think you're seriously hurt by a forum post implying that it must have been a decade or two since you last talked to a Mexican if you seriously believe they never get shit-talked by their white neighbors and co-workers. Am I wrong? Have you been talking to your therapist about the mean guy who attacked you on the internet? Or are you, you know, fine actually, and just getting in a snit because you think I'll go all CNN Democrat and clutch my pearls at the very accusation of impropriety? Oh, thebeave, I'm so sorry I hurt your feelings! What can I do to make this right, to repair this horrible rent between us?

 

[Derec]

A forgiveable startup business loan is not a "handout".

It can be if the presumption is that they will be forgiven, not repaid. That's also why I was against Biden's student loan repayment change - it reduced monthly payments so much that it was understood that for a significant portion of college graduates student loans would become de-facto grants.
What's worst about her propopsal was that she (or rather her team) framed it in racial terms. It wasn't sold as a program open to everybody.

I take it you've never done anything as useful as starting a business, but you should still be at least vaguely aware of the amount of work involved. Surely you've at least met someone who owned a business? Did they seem... not busy, to you?

None of them counted on any loans they took being advertised as "forgivable" from the jump. It also depends on how easy these loans are to get, how much vetting the businesses will get vs. just taking the money on the basis of some half-baked idea.
I never said that it does not take work to start a business btw. That's just your editorializing.

Of course, this is all pointless to discuss now. She didn't win, and the idea is unlikely to be revived.

On the contrary, it's what's this thread is about, unlike your quip about right-wing militias.

Dems need a win in 2026 and 2028. Will they learn from the failures of 2024? Not if discussing them is deemed "pointless".

 

[Derec]

So, you're claiming that not only was the incident you described a real one,

Even the articles you offer as a rebuttal admit that the NBP militia was present. The only dispute is whether they were armed.

but that those scary Black People have both guns

You are the one who mentioned right wing "armed militias". I merely commented that it is not only the right wing that has militias that "patrol" polling places or otherwise involve themselves with electoral politics.
Btw, do you really think that racist black militias are ok?

and time machines now, and went back on time to write about it in a blog four years before it allegedly happened?

What now? No time machines necessary. Just realization that New Black Panther Party has been involved in multiple incidents over the years.
Since you won't let the issue rest, I might as well mention that New Black Panthers were involved with my former congresswoman - the notorious racist and antisemite Cynthia McKinney.

And mentioning nothing about the more worrying details you claimed like the notion of blockading a polling center, which was really the worrying bit, as opposed to just owning guns, which is 100% legal in Georgia but only news when a Black man does it?

I am not talking about a black individual owning a gun, but a racist black militia parading with them.
And again, you are the one who brought up armed militias.

 

[Derec]

Being implicitly skeptical of actual news reporting, while credulously believing and passionately repeating whatever nonsense conservative social media cooks up, without checking on the most basic details of the outrageous claims they make up before breakfast each morning.

I wasn't quoting any "social media" though. And mind you, I at least provided some news links about the NBP militia. You provided zero evidence for your original claim about right-wing militias.

 

[Derec]

And no, I don't agree with all the rest. As a B, for instance, not only do I not hate trans people, I understand that if the government dismantles their 14th amendment protections, it dismantles mine as well. Indeed, they'll have to plow right through Lawrence to do it, and that would effect me immediately. And I think I am not rare in understanding that obvious fact. Very few gay people voted for Trump, we aren't stupid.

Lawrence (and Roe, while it was in effect) could and should have been used to also dismantle unjust laws against consensual sex work.

That's one big problem I have with the contemporary state of social liberalism. It's too balkanized. It's all about this one group over the other, rather than using principles of liberty as they apply to a wider population.

 

[Derec]

Are the New Black Panthers living rent free in your head?

No. Politesse made a mention of right-wing militias, and so I pointed out to him that there are also militias on the leftist side of the horseshoe.

 

[ZiprHead]

They barely bothered to campaign at all, despite wasting billions of dollars at the attempt.

Where do you get this from?

The Harris campaign was doing multiple rallies daily in swing states. You couldn't walk by a tv without seeing a campaign ad.

The bottom line is people preferred the Trump bullshit over the Harris truth.

Politesse isn't exactly wrong. The Harris campaign spent a lot of money convincing those who needed no convincing.

When I was a little kid, I had a misconception that being more "busy" in my action would get more done. The thing I didn't understand at the time was the concept of wasted motion. I didn't know that I could do more while still accomplishing less of my goal.

Much of the issue here is that various conservative interests, and especially "covert" conservative interests such as the NYT, have an interest in forcing the Dems into "wasted effort", while giving "free effect" to the conservatives.

Is there an event that paints the Dems well or the conservatives badly? Publish stories about "congress"; the Dems have their victory diluted, and the conservatives have their sins piled on "government". In the inverse situation of shameful Dems or successful conservatives? Name them so that Dems are shamed and Cons are famed! Hire an editorial staff who will engineer headlines and influence the lowest information voters with the only thing they care about.

Rinse and repeat for an entire election cycle, and suddenly it doesn't matter how much spending is done on advertisements and announcements people actively avoid and ignore!

Social media? Twitter is literally owned by Musk, who has a finger on every scale in favor of Trump. Sinclair media owns an absurd number of local broadcasters across the nation.

The problem is that an ad can't compete with a firehose of scheduled content that says the opposite of what an ad does.

It wouldn't matter if the Dems spent 10 times as much, because those who own our media apparatus have a vested interest in countering and burying that message.

So basically you're saying there isn't a damn thing that can be done.

 

[Derec]

Abortion rights -- Those to whom this is important are already voting blue.

And yet the abortion measures did far better than Kamala Harris. Go figure.

LGBTQ+ -- Many Americans are bigots. The Ds need to coax the bigots out on Election Day. Instead, shoving their bigotries back in their faces just annoys them into staying home, or even voting Trump.

I do not think it was bigotry. Rather, the activists took things too far and the Dem establishment was too afraid to push back against the insanity.
The reason gay rights made major strides in the last couple of decades is that people were shown that it really does not affect them negatively. That Bill likes guys and marries Bob or that Sally likes women and marries Sandra "neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg" to borrow a phrase from Thomas Jefferson. But if I have a daughter who is a competitive swimmer and a biological male insist to compete against her, that puts her at a clear disadvantage. If the HR department at my job insist that I should ask everybody their preferred pronouns, or have to put "he/him" in my email signature, that also affects me in a way finding out Bill has gotten engaged to Bob does not. After all, I never had to put my sexual orientation in my email sig or ask or solicit information about it from my coworkers. Neither does Sally liking girls make her breaststroke any faster.

 

[Politesse]

Are the New Black Panthers living rent free in your head?

No. Politesse made a mention of right-wing militias, and so I pointed out to him that there are also militias on the leftist side of the horseshoe.

What's "Leftist" about the New Panthers? They do critique capitalism, but not from a Marxist perspective, rather, they wish to cut ties with the "white" market and create an independent Black economic network to rival and eventually replace it. A race nationalist group, in short, not all that ideologically dissimilar from those they principally oppose.

 

[laughing dog]

Are the New Black Panthers living rent free in your head?

No. Politesse made a mention of right-wing militias, and so I pointed out to him that there are also militias on the leftist side of the horseshoe.

One would think yet another pointless whataboutism about black radicals would prove my point.

 

[laughing dog]

Are the New Black Panthers living rent free in your head?

No. Politesse made a mention of right-wing militias, and so I pointed out to him that there are also militias on the leftist side of the horseshoe.

What's "Leftist" about the New Panthers? They do critique capitalism, but not from a Marxist perspective, rather, they wish to cut ties with the "white" market and create an independent Black economic neteork to rival and eventually replave it. A race nationalist group, in short, not all that ideologically dissimilar from those they principally oppose.

Are you calling Derec "a leftist"?

 

[southernhybrid]

Sorry guys, but according to most of my female friends and my sister, as well as myself, one of the biggest reasons that Harris lost is because she is a female and not enough people in this country will vote for a female who is running for president. Plus, do y'all remember all the nasty things that were said about voting for a female president, like a man isn't a true man if he votes for a woman for president. I may not have the words exactly corrects but that was a common thing said by the Republicans who suck up to Trump during the campaign season. Machismo had a lot to do with it. A higher percentage than usual of young Latino and Black men voted for Trump because he came across as being so macho. One of his favorite tunes is "This is a man's world" and sadly too many young men grabbed onto that and fell in line with the cult. And, I'm not trying to stereotype young Latino men, as even Mexico has a female president. WTF is wrong with the US?

https://www.newsweek.com/kamala-har...t-election-2024-campaign-social-media-1967536

Searches for the derogatory word "bitch" on Google shot up over 1,000 percent in the United States alongside a surge in online queries about Vice President Kamala Harris after she took the Democratic nomination, and the use of sexist language in social media hashtags rose even more in an indication of the part played by the gender factor ahead of the presidential election.

The trend mirrored one seen in relation to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton before she went on to lose the 2016 presidential election to Donald Trump, who is now running neck and neck with Harris.

After President Joe Biden dropped out of the election race on July 21 to be replaced by Harris, searches for her name skyrocketed. So did searches for terms described as sexist.

Daily searches for "Kamala Harris" exploded after she announced her candidacy mere hours after Biden dropped out of the race in July. One of the top rising queries that rose concurrently from the same users from Aug. 2 throughout the month was for "bitch". It rose 1,050% during that period.

The above was written about a month before the election, but from what I recall, the sexism continued to ramp up right until Election Day. There were also a good bit of racist comments made about Harris, so add that to the pie and you have two of the biggest reasons why she lost. All of the people I know, both Black, white, male, female were very excited to vote for her. We didn't know much about her at first, but we warmed up to her and felt she was a very good candidate, who did her best to reach out to all Americans, not just progressives etc. That's how it should be in a country as diverse as ours. Trump on the other hand, was the most divisive candidate in my lifetime.

I don't personally know Latino voters personally, but I do know what I've read about the increased support of young Latino men for Trump. Those who didn't like her, voted for Trump, even if they didn't like him. Why was that? Not all Trump supporters were members of the cult. Some were simply sexist and/or took the false information about Harris too seriously. Harris was upbeat, while Trump and his cronies did a good job of disparaging her in every possible way, making her sound dangerous. Sure, she made some mistakes as all those running for office do, but compared to Trump, what else can I possibly say.....


And, food for thought. It's kind of odd that a person who uses the screen name that is associated with being polite has been quite rude lately. Rudeness is never helpful when it comes to trying to influence people in a positive way. I know most of us here are freaking out over the election results, but it would be good not to take it out in each other.