Dem Post Mortem

[Jason Harvestdancer]

To me, denying the experiences of other people and the problems they face is far more rude, and in a more important way, than... what, being a little disrespectful in my choice of words? You may whine and cry about it, but I don't think you're seriously hurt by a forum post implying that it must have been a decade or two since you last talked to a Mexican if you seriously believe they never get shit-talked by their white neighbors and co-workers. Am I wrong? Have you been talking to your therapist about the mean guy who attacked you on the internet? Or are you, you know, fine actually, and just getting in a snit because you think I'll go all CNN Democrat and clutch my pearls at the very accusation of impropriety? Oh, thebeave, I'm so sorry I hurt your feelings! What can I do to make this right, to repair this horrible rent between us?

Is that why you didn't address my personal lived experience of racism?

When my ancestors moved to California, we were a pretty homogeneous group. Several generations later and I don't even speak Spanish - it's kind of embarrassing actually. The racism I experienced came from within the family. My grandfather did something he wasn't supposed to. He married out-group, he married "the Blonde". Other members of the family were shocked, appalled, and were more than willing to shun them. At least she was willing to become Catholic like the rest of the family. But then, one generation later, my dad committed the same horrible offense, and went a step further by changing to Lutheran to suit his own blonde wife.

Sure I saw racism. Just not from a source you are willing to admit can be racist.

 

[Derec]

What's "Leftist" about the New Panthers? They do critique capitalism, but not from a Marxist perspective,

Panthers no longer do mandatory readings from Mao's little red book?

The OG Panthers certainly were Marxist. And even the New Panthers are left-of-center, given that they supported Stacey Abrams and provided security for Cyntha McKinney. And, as you say, they are opposed to capitalism.

rather, they wish to cut ties with the "white" market and create an independent Black economic neteork to rival and eventually replave it. A race nationalist group, in short, not all that ideologically dissimilar from those they principally oppose.

[citation needed] that they are not ideologically dissimilar to the "white market" they oppose.

 

[Politesse]

To me, denying the experiences of other people and the problems they face is far more rude, and in a more important way, than... what, being a little disrespectful in my choice of words? You may whine and cry about it, but I don't think you're seriously hurt by a forum post implying that it must have been a decade or two since you last talked to a Mexican if you seriously believe they never get shit-talked by their white neighbors and co-workers. Am I wrong? Have you been talking to your therapist about the mean guy who attacked you on the internet? Or are you, you know, fine actually, and just getting in a snit because you think I'll go all CNN Democrat and clutch my pearls at the very accusation of impropriety? Oh, thebeave, I'm so sorry I hurt your feelings! What can I do to make this right, to repair this horrible rent between us?

Is that why you didn't address my personal lived experience of racism?

When my ancestors moved to California, we were a pretty homogeneous group. Several generations later and I don't even speak Spanish - it's kind of embarrassing actually. The racism I experienced came from within the family. My grandfather did something he wasn't supposed to. He married out-group, he married "the Blonde". Other members of the family were shocked, appalled, and were more than willing to shun them. At least she was willing to become Catholic like the rest of the family. But then, one generation later, my dad committed the same horrible offense, and went a step further by changing to Lutheran to suit his own blonde wife.

Sure I saw racism. Just not from a source you are willing to admit can be racist.

Why would I "address" your experience? I don't doubt for a second that you encountered those things. Indeed, as the grandson of a Mexican woman who married in to a white (and Episcopal) family, I'm all too familiar with those very specific kinds of tensions.

Are you seriously claiming that people don't use racial slurs, though? Really? If not, and I did not think you were, then I don't see your post as an argument for inaction on racial issues. I didn't "address" your post because at least as I interpreted it, I didn't think it was intended as a rebuttal to mine.

 

[Politesse]

Are the New Black Panthers living rent free in your head?

No. Politesse made a mention of right-wing militias, and so I pointed out to him that there are also militias on the leftist side of the horseshoe.

What's "Leftist" about the New Panthers? They do critique capitalism, but not from a Marxist perspective, rather, they wish to cut ties with the "white" market and create an independent Black economic neteork to rival and eventually replave it. A race nationalist group, in short, not all that ideologically dissimilar from those they principally oppose.

Are you calling Derec "a leftist"?

I would not have thought to describe Derec as Leftist either, no. My impression haa been that he is a moderate conservative, but one who is far too credulous of alt-Right rhetoric and news sources owing to his fear and paranoia concerning the Black and/or Muslim populations, which those media sources happily stoke and amplify for him.

Mind you, there are a lot of Marxist ideas and language buried in that alt-Right rhetoric, as there always is with populism. But for the most part, I think those involved in it are entirely unaware of the notion that Marx's Bourgouisie and their "social elites" are in the same corner, nor that Trump's MAGA is at its heart a corrupted call to collective class action.

 

[Politesse]

The OG Panthers certainly were Marxist. And even the New Panthers are left-of-center, given that they supported Stacey Abrams and provided security for Cyntha McKinney

You are confusing two different groups, who both consider themselves to be inheritors of the same race/religious movement, but who despise one another and have very different ideological convictions. It's a China and Taiwan kind of situation.

 

[Derec]

Sorry guys, but according to most of my female friends and my sister, as well as myself, one of the biggest reasons that Harris lost is because she is a female and not enough people in this country will vote for a female who is running for president.

I do not think so.

Plus, do y'all remember all the nasty things that were said about voting for a female president, like a man isn't a true man if he votes for a woman for president.

I have not seen that said. And many disaffected young men voting for Trump is certainly far more complex than Kamala Harris being the nominee. I think many men do not see themselves reflected in the modern Democratic Party. After all, that is the party that failed to put a man on the Supreme Court since 1994 - 30 years ago! And you had Hillary use the lesbian separatist slogan "the future is female". If the future is female, where does that leave guys?
From the article:

What does “the future is female” even mean? Is one half of the human race going into hiding? Fading into irrelevance? Will they be rocketing off to outer space, hunched inside Tesla-designed capsules, never to be seen or heard from again?
Imagine, if you will, an audience of little boys — let’s pretend they’re second- and third-graders — forced to sit in an auditorium and listen to Hillary Clinton’s short speech. They swing their legs. They fidget a bit. “The future is female,” Clinton declares, beamed in on a giant screen. What are they supposed to think, other than that girls matter more than they do?

Or how about all the talk about "toxic masculinity" that makes it sound as if masculinity itself is being attacked? Can you really blame them from not being excited about that vision of the future? That they would rather follow pied pipers like Elon Musk or Joe Rogen?

Searches for the derogatory word "bitch" on Google shot up over 1,000 percent in the United States alongside a surge in online queries about Vice President Kamala Harris after she took the Democratic nomination, and the use of sexist language in social media hashtags rose even more in an indication of the part played by the gender factor ahead of the presidential election.

To be fair, worse language has been used about Trump for years. Surge of searches for "bitch" is a testament to the state of political discourse, but the more coarse discourse it is not something just happening to female candidates.

The above was written about a month before the election, but from what I recall, the sexism continued to ramp up right until Election Day. There were also a good bit of racist comments made about Harris, so add that to the pie and you have two of the biggest reasons why she lost.

I have not seen any "racist comments". Can you think of any concrete examples?

All of the people I know, both Black, white, male, female were very excited to vote for her. We didn't know much about her at first, but we warmed up to her and felt she was a very good candidate, who did her best to reach out to all Americans, not just progressives etc. That's how it should be in a country as diverse as ours. Trump on the other hand, was the most divisive candidate in my lifetime.

I voted for her, but I certainly was not excited. Not since her performance in 2019 when she tried to contest the outside left lane with Bernie and Warren and wanted to do stupid things like ban fracking and offshore drilling just because these things were popular with the activist classes.
I think the only reason people were at all excited about her is that they welcomed Biden stepping down - and for that any yellow dog of a Democrat would have elicited the same response. There was always something superficial and hollow about that initial surge of excitement for Kamala's candidacy - the "brat summer", the "coconut tree". Even her selection of her running mate based on him calling Repubpicans "weird" was more about vibes than anything else. It was her fatal mistake to think she could ride the vibes wave until November.

I don't personally know Latino voters personally, but I do know what I've read about the increased support of young Latino men for Trump. Those who didn't like her, voted for Trump, even if they didn't like him. Why was that? Not all Trump supporters were members of the cult.

For Latinos, their religiosity and social conservatism that stems from it played a big role I think. Same thing with Arabs and Muslims. Even this article admits that Gaza was only one reason (and perhaps a fig leaf) for Muslims abandoning Biden and Harris.
A Muslim Mayor Endorses Trump, and a City of Immigrants Finds Itself Undone
Relevant excerpt:

Two years later, Mr. Ghalib created another stir when he and other socially conservative Muslims banned the L.G.B.T.Q. Pride flag from publicly owned flagpoles, alarming liberals who said the move was discriminatory and harmful to the city’s welcoming reputation.
[...]
Explaining his support, Mr. Ghalib pointed to a distaste for liberal social views, anger at President Biden’s support of Israel and a belief that Mr. Trump will end the conflict in the Middle East.

Progressives have always been wrong thinking that mass migration from very religious and conservative places will result in many progressive voters. While several very leftist politicians are immigrants from those places - Rashida Tlaib, Ilhan Omar etc. - that does not necessarily translate to the hoi poloi.

 

[ZiprHead]

Hillary Clinton has made excellent speeches. I am no misogynist and am surprised by your comment. I've often thought that women would do a better job of governing than men. The two Members of the House of Reps I admire most are AOC and Nancy Pelosi. In my personal life I get along much better with women than with men.

You did only give male examples in a situation where a female was heavily criticised indirectly because she is a female. But I do apologize for implying you are misogynistic. There was a very misogynistic word Derec used quite often about Harris.

 

[Derec]

I would not have thought to describe Derec as Leftist either, no. My impression haa been that he is a moderate conservative,

No, I have more liberal views than conservative ones. I support gay marriage, abortion rights, sensible regulation of businesses, ACA etc. I do not think taxation is theft. However, I am opposed to things like identity politics or illegal migration (including the abuse of the asylum system).

I also think conventional American liberalism is too tribal, too focused on specific groups, and not consistent. Take "right to choose" and "right to privacy". Both are used to argue for right to abortions, but most self-described "liberals" refuse to extend that to consensual sex work. There is no logical reason people should not have the right to choose to freely engage in sexual acts for money, both as sellers and buyers of sexual services.

but one who is far too credulous of alt-Right rhetoric and news sources owing to his fear and paranoia concerning the Black and/or Muslim populations, which those media sources happily stoke and amplify for him.

Bullshit. I am not credulous at all. But black violence or threats of violence should not be excused just because they are black. Islamism is a real threat to western societies. Armed militias are not only bad when it's a bunch of right-wing white men.
You on the other hand one-sidedly attack right-wing militias, but ignore racist left-wing (they may or may not be Marxist these days, but they do lean left) militias like New Black Panthers or the John Brown Gun Club. After all, right-wing militias did not occupy Capitol Hill in Seattle with armed force for weeks. That was left-wingers. Neither did white militias occupy a stretch of University Ave. in Atlanta and murder an 8-year old girl.

Mind you, there are a lot of Marxist ideas and language buried in that alt-Right rhetoric,

I have been pointing to the horseshoe-like nature of extreme ends of the political spectrum for many years.

 

[Derec]

There was a very misogynistic word Derec used quite often about Harris.

What word would that be? With usage examples, please. Also, define "often".

 

[Derec]

You are confusing two different groups, who both consider themselves to be inheritors of the same race/religious movement,

Which two groups? And if New Black Panther Party is not on the left, why are they supporting the likes of Stacey Abrams?

 

[Politesse]

You are confusing two different groups, who both consider themselves to be inheritors of the same race/religious movement,

Which two groups? And if New Black Panther Party is not on the left, why are they supporting the likes of Stacey Abrams?

Political identity is more complicated than right and left, black and white, Democrat and Republican.

Who did you vote for, Derec?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

To me, denying the experiences of other people and the problems they face is far more rude, and in a more important way, than... what, being a little disrespectful in my choice of words? You may whine and cry about it, but I don't think you're seriously hurt by a forum post implying that it must have been a decade or two since you last talked to a Mexican if you seriously believe they never get shit-talked by their white neighbors and co-workers. Am I wrong? Have you been talking to your therapist about the mean guy who attacked you on the internet? Or are you, you know, fine actually, and just getting in a snit because you think I'll go all CNN Democrat and clutch my pearls at the very accusation of impropriety? Oh, thebeave, I'm so sorry I hurt your feelings! What can I do to make this right, to repair this horrible rent between us?

Is that why you didn't address my personal lived experience of racism?

When my ancestors moved to California, we were a pretty homogeneous group. Several generations later and I don't even speak Spanish - it's kind of embarrassing actually. The racism I experienced came from within the family. My grandfather did something he wasn't supposed to. He married out-group, he married "the Blonde". Other members of the family were shocked, appalled, and were more than willing to shun them. At least she was willing to become Catholic like the rest of the family. But then, one generation later, my dad committed the same horrible offense, and went a step further by changing to Lutheran to suit his own blonde wife.

Sure I saw racism. Just not from a source you are willing to admit can be racist.

Why would I "address" your experience? I don't doubt for a second that you encountered those things. Indeed, as the grandson of a Mexican woman who married in to a white (and Episcopal) family, I'm all too familiar with those very specific kinds of tensions.

Are you seriously claiming that people don't use racial slurs, though? Really? If not, and I did not think you were, then I don't see your post as an argument for inaction on racial issues. I didn't "address" your post because at least as I interpreted it, I didn't think it was intended as a rebuttal to mine.

In post 866 I wrote that my experience with Republicans is that they are more likely to use "Socialist" or "Communist" as slurs than they would use racial slurs. In post 867 you responded by saying I must not know any Republicans, although I probably know more of them than you do. I responded by telling you about my own experience with racial slurs in post 886, which you must have overlooked.

Most recently you wrote about some experiences in very Blue California of people using racial slurs, and therefore that is what Republicans do.

 

[Politesse]

You on the other hand one-sidedly attack right-wing militias, but ignore racist left-wing (they may or may not be Marxist these days, but they do lean left) militias like New Black Panthers or the John Brown Gun Club.

I fervently oppose the New Black Panthers, and anyone else who thinks skin color is more important than common humanity. I didn't call out your bullshit because I like NBPP, but because it was a fabricated "news" story, passed around on far right media network in support of a false narrative about the election. You may not personally support Trump, but you are willfully spreading his propaganda whether you realize that or not.

 

[Derec]

Political identity is more complicated than right and left, black and white, Democrat and Republican.

Of course it is. You still have not answered the question about the particulars of these two groups who descended from the orginial, Maoist Black Panthers.

Who did you vote for, Derec?

As I have pointed out many a time, Harris/Walz since they were clearly the lesser of two weevils.

 

[Derec]

but because it was a fabricated "news" story,

Even your rebuttal news story acknowledges that they were there.

And you also have not provided any news story about your original claim of right-wing armed militias.

I also reject the claim that I am somehow pushing Trumpian propaganda. Acknowledging that bad actors exist on the left as well as right is not propaganda. Ignoring them plays into Trump's hands. I think that without #BLM riots since 2014 there would have been no Trump presidency. Or do you not believe that violence that these extremists visited upon Ferguson, upon Minneapolis, upon Milwaukee, upon Chicago, upon Charlotte, played any role in Hillary losing in 2016? Hell, the Charlotte riots happened just six weeks before the election.

 

[Politesse]

Most recently you wrote about some experiences in very Blue California of people using racial slurs, and therefore that is what Republicans do.

I didn't ask the lady how she'd voted. Considering that whole nasty incident was in Pleasanton, a town every bit as saccharine and irritating as it sounds, odds are good she thinks she's a "liberal", just like Derec.

Come to think of it, one of the few times I've ever been called a fag by an adult was in Pleasanton too, though that was definitely by a Trump supporter, Republican or otherwise. What the hell is up with that town anyway? If they weren't hogging all the good bistros in the 925 I wouldn't bother with them anymore.

I do feel that you are trying to paint me as some sort of partisan shill for the Democrats, which strikes me as a pretty odd claim given the thread we're in. I absolutely blame the party leadership for the mess we're in with Trump (albeit not to the degree that I blame his actual supporters) and have said so repeatedly in this very thread. They're liars, hypocrites, quietly racist as hell, and fully owned by neoliberal interests that will let this country be destroyed by the rising tide of fascism before they concede a penny of their unearned but miserly hoarded wealth.

I've met a lot of these Washington DC fuckers in pursuit of my work, and trust me when I tell you you should always take their "Party" affiliation with a grain of salt. Because they certainly do. How fast did Peter Thiel and Elon Musk jump to the Republicans when the Democrats started to threaten their corporate interests? Now they fund a discount Nazi for president, and both are closet Yarvin disciples who don't support any kind of party system when the doors are closed.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The Democrats cannot use the populist tactics employed by Maga. They've positioned themselves as a moderate/centrist party. Their policy platform is basically to maintain the status quo but with some minor tweaks. Such a party has no broad message to campaign on besides, "things are mostly fine, how about another four more years of this?"

Yup. But boring is good in politics. I'm thinking of a story that involved time travel, the protagonist considers it good that she doesn't remember the president's term. (They had no opportunity to prepare, the time trip was a desperation move.)

 

[Elixir]

It just worked a lot better for Trump, because his supporters actually like him.

Again I disagree. It worked better for Trump because fear and loathing are far more urgent and effective motivators than “a better path forward” vaporware. Most Trumpsuckers I know agree he’s a despicable person to some degree or other.

 

[ZiprHead]

There was a very misogynistic word Derec used quite often about Harris.

What word would that be? With usage examples, please. Also, define "often".

Please don't don't play us for fools. You know full well what that word is and how you were chastised for using it.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I do feel that you are trying to paint me as some sort of partisan shill for the Democrats, which strikes me as a pretty odd claim given the thread we're in.

Post 837 explains why I would feel that paint suits you.