Dem Post Mortem

[bigfield]

Can you imagine the anti-communism advertising

Grow a backbone, Dems.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Can you imagine the anti-communism advertising

Grow a backbone, Dems.

I live in Ohio, in a competitive Senate and House district area. The anti-transgender advertisements were brutal. Moreno had around 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 ads actually about him. The ads were generally about children getting sex changes and men in girls locker rooms. That advertising won the GOP that senate seat.

The American people aren't particularly up on what the differences between an American socialist and a communist are. It'd been brutal, and Sanders would have been dusted at the polls.

 

[SLD]

Can you imagine the anti-communism advertising

Grow a backbone, Dems.

I live in Ohio, in a competitive Senate and House district area. The anti-transgender advertisements were brutal. Moreno had around 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 ads actually about him. The ads were generally about children getting sex changes and men in girls locker rooms. That advertising won the GOP that senate seat.

The American people aren't particularly up on what the differences between an American socialist and a communist are. It'd been brutal, and Sanders would have been dusted at the polls.

No. Bernie wouldn’t have been distracted by the trans bullshit. He would’ve looked them right in the eye, and said who gives a shit. I’m here to talk about economic issues. You are the ones focused on this crap, not me. And that would have been played over and over. And I bet he’d really say shit on national television in the debates. Probably would’ve thrown in a bunch of f bombs to boot.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Why did she lose?

1) She’s a she, and an African American one at that.

Sadly, I do think that being a woman is the big factor. I think that it is ironically a larger barrier for women than men.

2) Uninspiring leadership

For some reason, Harris ran from economic issues. I suspect that the few years will demonstrate a recession in the US and a bear stock market. I think that higher interest rates will remain, slower growth, chaos in the labor market (kicking out immigrants).

3) Stuck to a script too much, not authentic

I do think that this was a major issue. Crazy that she didn't go on the Joe Rogan show. That was so stupid.

4) Biden stayed on too late - he never should have run to begin with

Well, if Biden had not run, Harris wouldn't have been nominated.

5). Bernie should have won 8 years ago. Stupid Dems nominate people who have no chance of winning.

This one drives me crazy. It's the old white man from NE is needed to save the people! He got less votes than HRC. Period. Put aside those false reports that the super delegates picked HRC. No, the dems did. HRC beat Sanders by 3.7 million votes! She beat him by majority vote and delegates. Biden destroyed Sanders in 2020. We don't need a white savior to save the democratic party.

Others?

Israel hurt.

Thanks for responding to the OP specifically.

WRT 4 and 5, not sure if I agree. Typically, VP’s seem to get the nod if they run. They’re the obvious choice. I can’t think of a modern example of a VP running and losing the nomination. Nixon, Humphrey, Bush, Gore. Others? I say she would have likely won the nomination. The question is whether she would have won the election unlike Nixon, Humphrey and Gore. I suspect strongly she would have ran.

5. Nannh. How Clinton won is irrelevant. Sanders would have won, IMHO. That’s my point. But the Democratic Party leaders did put their thumbs on the scale to help her win. Everyone is afraid of an economic populist, but that’s what we need. And it’s not that he’s a white savior, he would have won. Trump is a white savior and that may very well be why he won.

Sure the democratic leaders preferred HRC over Bernie. Just as they preferred HRC over Obama. Obama was the better candidate and eventually beat HRC and won. I actually personally met both HRC and Bernie at an event years ago. I actually liked HRC better than Bernie. I found her to be warmer and more sincere. Maybe Bernie had a bad night, but he came across as distracted and aloof. So I voted for HRC.

 

[Emily Lake]

As a note, Joe Rogan refused to go to her.... the sitting VP.

Are you expecting him to move his studio for her convenience? FFS, she went on The View, and The Howard Stern Show, and did a thing with Rue Paul's Drag Race. None of them went to her.

 

[Derec]

Sadly, I do think that being a woman is the big factor. I think that it is ironically a larger barrier for women than men.

I do not think so. Both HRC and KDH were very flawed candidates as individuals, and yet they both came relatively close to winning - Hillary closer than Kami, but 2024 was still not a blowout.

For some reason, Harris ran from economic issues. I suspect that the few years will demonstrate a recession in the US and a bear stock market. I think that higher interest rates will remain, slower growth, chaos in the labor market (kicking out immigrants).

A recession in the next four years is likely no matter who is in the White House I think.
But why do you and others always conflate legal and illegal immigrants, as if there was no difference between the two?

Well, if Biden had not run, Harris wouldn't have been nominated.

A primary season would have given the people a choice, instead of having Harris foisted upon us.
And in the unlikely case she would have prevailed, that would have been the primary voters choice, and thus would have legitimized her, and also it would have made her a stronger candidate by going through the primary crucible.
But I agree with you, somebody else would have been nominated most likely, perhaps even another woman like Whitmer.
That somebody would also most likely be planning his or her inauguration right about now.

This one drives me crazy. It's the old white man from NE is needed to save the people!

Instead it was an old white man from Midatlantic who saved us in 2020. What's wrong with him being white? And in 2016 Sanders wasn't even that old (75) by the standards of our recent presidents. And Hillary wasn't exactly a spring chicken herself (69).

He got less votes than HRC. Period. Put aside those false reports that the super delegates picked HRC. No, the dems did.

Fewer votes, and yes, sure, he did. But DNC put their whole weight behind HRC that year, and that stuck in the craw of many Sandernistas in 2016.

Biden destroyed Sanders in 2020.

I remember that a little differently. Bernie was riding high in popularity, and Biden was nowhere in Iowa and NH. He got saved by the Corrupt Bargain with Clyburn (SCOTUS seat for his support in SC). After that, the rest of the field dropped out to help Biden against Bernie.

It's not that I agree with Bernie's politics, especially 2020 and later when he fully embraced fauxgressive identity politics and extremists like Linda "Cockroach" Sarsour. DNC still did him dirty, even if they kinda had to, or else risk a 1972esque or at least 1988esque defeat.

We don't need a white savior to save the democratic party.

I get it. You don't like white men.

Israel hurt.

Did it really? It was an issue important to the loud fringe, but I do not think it was a decisive issue for most voters.

 

[ZiprHead]

I do not think so. Both HRC and KDH were very flawed candidates as individuals, and yet they both came relatively close to winning - Hillary closer than Kami, but 2024 was still not a blowout.

Name any candidate who was not flawed, especially more flawed than Trump.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Sadly, I do think that being a woman is the big factor. I think that it is ironically a larger barrier for women than men.

I do not think so. Both HRC and KDH were very flawed candidates as individuals, and yet they both came relatively close to winning - Hillary closer than Kami, but 2024 was still not a blowout.

Hillary Clinton had two primary flaws.

1) Overly ambitious and appeared to put principles second to ambition (but this didn't stop Bubba from being President).
2) 30 years of fucking hate towards her (that is what you are mistaking as flawed).

Hillary Clinton wasn't particularly flawed. A carpetbagger, political opportunist, sure... but she lacked baggage otherwise (except the 30 years of hate and propaganda). She is very intelligent and committed. She was the target of a rancorous GOP House committee for a whole day, and she didn't break a sweat. She served to help bring in UHC back in the 90s, as a US Senator, as Secretary of State. And it isn't as if we had established juggernauts as Presidents since 2000. W was heavily flawed, Obama wasn't very experienced, Trump (OMFG!). Biden would be the first guy since HW Bush to be a DC veteran and get elected President. She was the most qualified for the position since HW Bush. Toni will say ever, but we can table that part of the discussion.

Biden destroyed Sanders in 2020.

I remember that a little differently. Bernie was riding high in popularity,

Actually Buttigieg "won"{ Iowa, Sanders took next door New Hampshire and then Nevada. There was no clear front runner at that point. Biden took South Carolina and then held his own on Super Tuesday, winning states all across the nation. He had the momentum at that point.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Sadly, I do think that being a woman is the big factor. I think that it is ironically a larger barrier for women than men.

I do not think so. Both HRC and KDH were very flawed candidates as individuals, and yet they both came relatively close to winning - Hillary closer than Kami, but 2024 was still not a blowout.

For some reason, Harris ran from economic issues. I suspect that the few years will demonstrate a recession in the US and a bear stock market. I think that higher interest rates will remain, slower growth, chaos in the labor market (kicking out immigrants).

A recession in the next four years is likely no matter who is in the White House I think.
But why do you and others always conflate legal and illegal immigrants, as if there was no difference between the two?

Well, if Biden had not run, Harris wouldn't have been nominated.

A primary season would have given the people a choice, instead of having Harris foisted upon us.
And in the unlikely case she would have prevailed, that would have been the primary voters choice, and thus would have legitimized her, and also it would have made her a stronger candidate by going through the primary crucible.
But I agree with you, somebody else would have been nominated most likely, perhaps even another woman like Whitmer.
That somebody would also most likely be planning his or her inauguration right about now.

This one drives me crazy. It's the old white man from NE is needed to save the people!

Instead it was an old white man from Midatlantic who saved us in 2020. What's wrong with him being white? And in 2016 Sanders wasn't even that old (75) by the standards of our recent presidents. And Hillary wasn't exactly a spring chicken herself (69).

He got less votes than HRC. Period. Put aside those false reports that the super delegates picked HRC. No, the dems did.

Fewer votes, and yes, sure, he did. But DNC put their whole weight behind HRC that year, and that stuck in the craw of many Sandernistas in 2016.

Biden destroyed Sanders in 2020.

I remember that a little differently. Bernie was riding high in popularity, and Biden was nowhere in Iowa and NH. He got saved by the Corrupt Bargain with Clyburn (SCOTUS seat for his support in SC). After that, the rest of the field dropped out to help Biden against Bernie.

My "white savior" was a little harsh. Here's why I used it: Sanders did very well in the NE part of the country (early in the primaries) against both HRC and Biden. But when it came to super Tuesday, when the south started voting, Sanders got beat. HRC beat him by 3.2 million votes; Biden beat him by 10 million votes.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

My "white savior" was a little harsh. Here's why I used it: Sanders did very well in the NE part of the country (early in the primaries) against both HRC and Biden. But when it came to super Tuesday, when the south started voting, Sanders got beat. HRC beat him by 3.2 million votes; Biden beat him by 10 million votes.

Biden won Maine, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Virginia, North Carolina, and Texas on Super Tuesday. It wasn't just the south.

And no, Biden wasn't my first, second, or third choice. In fact, I was hoping Klobuchar could pull off something late. Didn't happen.

I'd be curious what would have happened otherwise, if the whistleblower didn't come forth on the Trump/Zelensky plot. Biden's campaign is crashed, though it was never looking awesome, leaving it open for the rest.

 

[Elixir]

I was hoping Klobuchar could pull off something late. Didn't happen.

The way the electorate snubbed Harris, makes me think it will be decades before the twice-burned DNC is going to support another female candidate for president. There are few, if any, better qualified, more articulate females anywhere in government, and yet, “the people” reacted with a big fat collective “meh!”

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think the DNC screwed up with with DEI selection of Walz. Should have gone and pushed for Whitmer to help solidify the Midwest.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If I was a business I would be able to deduct my food and housing. And much more. I cannot. A comparison that cannot be evaluated.

Also, individual people are taxed on their income, whilst corporations are taxed on their profits (there are reasons for this, but are irrelevant to the analogy being discussed).

Well, individuals are taxed on their "taxable income"; not gross income. We are taxed on our gross income - deductions.

The standard deduction basically represents what you need to spend on food/housing/etc. The problem comes from being taxed on money we need to spend to make money.

Rich people turn all that into “business expenses ”. Even a medium sized business can float an extravagant lifestyle for a few people, VASTLY reducing their need for “taxable income”. The trick is to live large at Company expense, even if you are the Company.

Illegal, but the IRS ability to audit has been gutted.

 

[Derec]

Name any candidate who was not flawed,

Fair enough, but these two were more flawed than most.

especially more flawed than Trump.

Trump is a very flawed candidate, and yet, these two both managed to lose against him.

 

[Derec]

I think the DNC screwed up with with DEI selection of Walz.

Knucklehead was a poor choice, but he wasn't selected because he was a white man, so the DEI quip is misplaced.
Walz was chosen because he called Republicans "weird" and that fit Kamala's "memes and vibes" campaign that centered on things like coconut trees and Brat Summer.

Should have gone and pushed for Whitmer to help solidify the Midwest.

Perhaps, but I do not think she wanted it.
But maybe you are pushing your own DEI angle by wanting an all-female ticket?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think the DNC screwed up with with DEI selection of Walz.

Knucklehead was a poor choice, but he wasn't selected because he was a white man, so the DEI quip is misplaced.

Yes he was and Shapiro would have been as well. But I apologize for culturally appropriating your term. Clearly it bothers you. That wasn't my intention. Okay, maybe a little.

Should have gone and pushed for Whitmer to help solidify the Midwest.

Perhaps, but I do not think she wanted it.

I said "pushed".

But maybe you are pushing your own DEI angle by wanting an all-female ticket?

I wanted Trump not to be President again, I think a dual-female ticket (including a popular Midwest governor) helped provide a 'go fuck yourself' anti-misogyny message about the first female President. It might not have mattered in the end, but the Dems were limited on the playing field due to the circumstances at the time.

 

[Derec]

Hillary Clinton had two primary flaws.

She had more than that.

Hillary Clinton wasn't particularly flawed.

Oh yes, she was. For one, she made it all about being a woman. She even penned an op-ed for cnn.com saying that women should face lesser penalties than men for same crimes, because when a woman breaks the law, it must really be some man's fault.
Her penchant for lying (e.g. Hillary the Bullet Dodger) is another thing.

She was the most qualified for the position since HW Bush. Toni will say ever, but we can table that part of the discussion.

There is so much hyperbole about her intelligence and qualifications, which I think is to distract from just how unremarkable she is in politics as far as intelligence and qualifications.
And as far as qualifications, she was not much more experienced than Obama in 2008. And even in 2016, she only added a stint as SecState, which hasn't led to the White House since James Buchanan in 1858.
Even as you make a more careful claim than Toni (and others), it still does not hold water. Was she more experienced than her husband? He was a two term governor and attorney general. W also was governor. Those who exaggerate Hillary's qualifications impute her husband's experience to her.

Actually Buttigieg "won"{ Iowa, Sanders took next door New Hampshire and then Nevada. There was no clear front runner at that point. Biden took South Carolina and then held his own on Super Tuesday, winning states all across the nation. He had the momentum at that point.

Mayor Pete won most delegates, but Bernie got more first votes, and almost as many delegates. Biden was far behind in 4th.
In New Hampshire, Bernie won, Mayor Pete was close second, but it was a tie on delegates. Biden was far behind in 5th and got no delegates.
He was on the ropes, and only the Corrupt Bargain and DNC's fear of the specter haunting the primary states helped Biden gain momentum.
Bernie was still strong though, and if Warren had dropped out earlier, say after NH or SC, he would have given Biden a run for his money. I think Fauxachontas stayed in the race as long as she did to split the left-wing vote and to help Biden against Bernie (whom she disliked on a personal level). And then Biden returned the favor by incorporating a lot of lefty planks into what nominally became his agenda. That's also the reason I think why came like a spider-monkey on poor Bloomchen - she had a behind-the-scenes deal with Biden.

 

[Derec]

My "white savior" was a little harsh. Here's why I used it: Sanders did very well in the NE part of the country (early in the primaries) against both HRC and Biden. But when it came to super Tuesday, when the south started voting, Sanders got beat. HRC beat him by 3.2 million votes; Biden beat him by 10 million votes.

But both Hillary and Biden are white. So your race-based quip was a bit strange.
That said, Bernie does well when it comes to retail politics of the traditional early states (that Biden sacrificed by foolishly moving SC first). When it comes to many large states voting, party machine has a lot more influence. Obama was similar. He was an upstart going against the party machine favorite.

That said, I think states like NH and Iowa have a Democratic primary electorate that is closer to the demographics of the US general election electorate than the SC Democratic primary electorate.
Putting SC first, and snubbing Iowa and NH was obviously part of Biden's Corrupt Bargain and the general overreaction regarding race in the wake of George Floyd Riots, and it should be reversed.

 

[Derec]

Biden won Maine, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Virginia, North Carolina, and Texas on Super Tuesday. It wasn't just the south.

Looking at the results, Bernie came within one percentage point in ME, was also a close second in MA and MN. Without Fauxachontas splitting the fauxgressive vote, he would have likely won these M-states.

And no, Biden wasn't my first, second, or third choice. In fact, I was hoping Klobuchar could pull off something late. Didn't happen.

Klob in from MN and only managed 5th place in the neighboring state of Iowa. She did better in NH, but only came in third. I

I'd be curious what would have happened otherwise, if the whistleblower didn't come forth on the Trump/Zelensky plot. Biden's campaign is crashed, though it was never looking awesome, leaving it open for the rest.

What exactly do you mean?

 

[Derec]

The way the electorate snubbed Harris, makes me think it will be decades before the twice-burned DNC is going to support another female candidate for president. There are few, if any, better qualified, more articulate females anywhere in government, and yet, “the people” reacted with a big fat collective “meh!”

As I said before, Harris was qualified, but she lacks judgment.