• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Democratic Debate 9/12/2019

Explicitly addressing racism... “what makes you best able to address it”
And of course, they only care about white racism, not about racism against whites, that also exists.

O’Rourke. Pulls no punches. It’s here. Answer includes reparations for the financial inequality.
Reparations are a stupid idea. And especially when you sell them as about fixing "financial inequality" rather than as remedy for an actual harm suffered by an individual.

Speaking of race, Harris spoke out in favor of racially based colleges and universities, so called "HBCUs".
How is it that for mainstream universities, diversities is hailed as a virtue sine qua non, but for "HBCUs" that are THE LEAST DIVERSE colleges in the US, this monochromacity is seen as an asset?
chart-ethnic-diversity_xl.png
 
Make that some white kids, and also some black kids and some brown kids and so on. Some kids get a lot more from their parents from the start and have that advantage to start with all their lives. But it's not just white kids with that advantage.
No, of course not. And I didn't write that last sentence either - bad quote formatting.

We need to not pre-judge kids period, but especially not pre-judge kids based on what we think of their parents or their color or their clothes or their background.
Which is why racial preferences are so bad - they prejudge kids.

We need to stop pre-judging kids based on their color or first language, country of origin, socioeconomic status, ethnicity, etc. AND we need to teach all kids based on the kids, not our pre-judged perceptions of what we think they can do.
I agree. But what does that have to do with the article? The gifted programs did not prejudge anybody. Every kid in NY schools has equal chance to take the placement exam. The NYC government wants to scrap these programs because they do not like the outcome.

Yeah: that means giving some extra support to kids who get double or triple or 10X the stress with not even a fraction of the love and support that other kids get.
Schools should offer academic support to kids. But they should not promote kids to gifted programs over better qualified kids just to achieve a racial distribution that politicians want. Kids should be treated as individuals.

FWIW, gifted programs are under threat in virtually all white areas, as well. It disappeared in my town after an oh, so brief appearance, 20 years ago and trust me, almost every kid in the district is pretty damn white.
I am not questioning it. But the fact is that gifted programs exist in NYC and are under threat because of racial political correctness. Experience in your town does not invalidate what is happening in NYC right now.

All the ones in the gifted programs were, for sure. Gifted programs are perceived as being more expensive (they are not) and as being geared towards kids who already have a lot of advantages (too often too true but still: kids who need extra, well, need extra and it's stupid to have them bored in classes teaching Little Bear when they're reading Dickens and Tolkien and Shakespeare). Teachers and districts who are struggling to meet the needs of kids with serious disadvantages (and yes, I'm still talking about a virtually 100% white school district) find it difficult to see it as 'fair' to provide 'extra' to students who surpass their classmates by 2 or more grade levels.
The "one size fits all" approach that is the norm in most K-12 districts is doing a disservice to most kids, those more gifted and those academically struggling alike.
So you agree that it would be a mistake for NYC to scrap gifted programs because of racial politics?
 
That's 50 minutes I'll never get back (I was mercifully called away for much of it).
Thank you all for the synopses - very helpful in confirming that the whole spectacle changed nothing.
My entrenched "position":
I'll turn 70 next year, and don't really need to have a President who's older than I am any more. But it looks inevitable unless Harris can pull a rabbit out of a hat...
If not, I hope Bernie endorses Liz soon.
And alas, Mayor Pete would be the best President.
 
...
Is it really discredited that intellectual stimulation in early childhood benefits intellectual development for later life? Or is it just not fashionable these days?
Professor: If You Read To Your Kids, You're Unfairly Disadvantaging Others'

No, you've misconstrued the controversy I was referring to. It goes back to the late 60s and early 70s, when black children were believed by some psychologists to have impoverished intellects that were associated with poor linguistic skills. Biden was responding specifically to a question about reparations and race relations, not whether it was generally a good idea to read to children. Your article had nothing to do with it. Biden was associating racial bias with his past understanding of what the root causes were of poor academic performance in African American children.

There is still the issue that, on average, black kids have lower academic achievement compared to others. What do you propose be done about it, other than the old-and-tired "it's all racism"? Certainly the solution is not to try to hide it by for example scrapping all gifted programs because too few blacks and hispanics qualify for them, like NYC is proposing to do.
Desegregation Plan: Eliminate All Gifted Programs in New York

Again, you insert a red herring into the discussion. Biden was talking about exposing black kids to a wider range of vocabulary than he mistakenly believed they were. His remarks really harkened back to the old controversy over IQ discrepancies between black kids and white kids. If you are really interested in it, you should read this article by Bill Labov that was published back in 1972: Academic Ignorance and Black Intelligence.

Regarding Elizabeth Warren:
She is very good at promoting ideas, and that is why she has become my favorite candidate for the top of the ticket. Her main problem will be motivating African American and Latino voters to get out and vote,
She is already too deep in with identity politics for me. She already called the justified shooting of Michael Brown "murder" and she is in favor of giving blacks so-called "reparations".

Derec, you are "too deep in with identity politics" for me. You can't stop posting things about race and your perception of liberal hypocrisy on that subject. It is quite a hobby horse for you. Elizabeth Warren doesn't dwell on the topic, and she takes positions on race relations that are fairly standard for Democrats (and that I wholeheartedly support). I'm not a fan of the term "reparations", but that is something that Democrats are going with. My problem with it is that average Americans are going to perceive it as something other than what it is really about, and the label is what trips them up. But Democrats are notoriously ineptt at framing policies in language that doesn't scare the bejeebers out of people who are not part of their ideological base. Republicans seem to be much better at that, IMO.

Whoever makes it to the top of the ticket will need to think hard about who would be the best complement for a running mate.
That is always the case. I always chuckle at these non-complementary fantasy tickets like Warren-Sanders (or Sanders-Warren). If Warren gets the nomination, she will pick somebody like Buttigieg.

Probably not. He really doesn't help her to pivot towards the middle ground, which she will need to do in the general election. He likely will not be able to deliver Indiana to her electoral count, and most Americans are probably still ignorant of the fact that he is in a same-sex marriage. News junkies, people in the LGBTQ community, and those of us who dote on political news are, but not the vast majority, who are still tuned out. If she wins the nomination, then I suspect she will pick someone who will help her with turning out African American voters (almost 25% of Democratic voters) and Latinos. As more people become aware of it, it will have a negative impact on large numbers of voters. Buttigieg actually has some negative electability issues in that area. However, she will likely find some other role for him in the federal government, if elected. Probably a cabinet secretary.
 
Anti-Gun activist: You gun owners are paranoid, we're not coming for your guns.

Beto O'Rourke: Hell yes, we’re going to take your AR-15, your AK-47. We’re not going to allow it to be used against fellow Americans anymore. *Introduces bill that will ban handguns*

Saner Democrats: Oh shit! Beto just hurt us really badly.

Democratic senator warns O'Rourke AR-15 pledge could haunt party for years
 
Anti-Gun activist: You gun owners are paranoid, we're not coming for your guns.

Beto O'Rourke: Hell yes, we’re going to take your AR-15, your AK-47. We’re not going to allow it to be used against fellow Americans anymore. *Introduces bill that will ban handguns*

Saner Democrats: Oh shit! Beto just hurt us really badly.

Democratic senator warns O'Rourke AR-15 pledge could haunt party for years

Or maybe it is just an initial softening up... y'know, like "President for life sounds good, doesn't it?"
 
Finished watching it and here is my substantive analysis.

Call me ageist, but Biden's denture malfunction was disqualifying.

Harris laughs too much at her own jokes. She's cancelled.

The Yang gang are obnoxious. Yang is cancelled, unless he buys me off monthly.

Jorge Ramos needs to stop pretending he speaks for all latinos on immigration. Cancelled.

Booker is likeable enough for a corporate whore.

O'Rourke's best night but he still will never confiscate my vote.

Buttigieg shouldn't win but he would be good at debating Trump.

Castro took a cheap shot and missed. Cancelled.

Klobuchar is from the midwest, didn't know that. Still cancelled.

Sanders somehow forgot about the hard candy he keeps in his pocket. One broken hip away from being cancelled.

Which leaves Warren whom I'm 1/1,024 positive will win it all.
 
Finished watching it and here is my substantive analysis.

Call me ageist, but Biden's denture malfunction was disqualifying.

Harris laughs too much at her own jokes. She's cancelled.

The Yang gang are obnoxious. Yang is cancelled, unless he buys me off monthly.

Jorge Ramos needs to stop pretending he speaks for all latinos on immigration. Cancelled.

Booker is likeable enough for a corporate whore.

O'Rourke's best night but he still will never confiscate my vote.

Buttigieg shouldn't win but he would be good at debating Trump.

Castro took a cheap shot and missed. Cancelled.

Klobuchar is from the midwest, didn't know that. Still cancelled.

Sanders somehow forgot about the hard candy he keeps in his pocket. One broken hip away from being cancelled.

Which leaves Warren Marianne Williamson whom I'm 1/1,024 positive will win it all.

FIFY :D
 
Democrats can't unify. Republicans can. That's a big part of why Trump won and why the left can't do anything.
 
Democrats can't unify. Republicans can. That's a big part of why Trump won and why the left can't do anything.

Except for when Republicans can't. 2018 was just last year
 
Democrats can't unify. Republicans can. That's a big part of why Trump won and why the left can't do anything.

The Deplorables can. The ones who have no compunction about publicly stating their intolerable views. Trump won because cowardly closet racists slithered into the voting booth to Make America White Again.

Yes, those racist disgusting deplorables who are now cheering along with Trump that Hispanic and black unemployment are at ALL TIME LOWS!!!!

If they were racist, I'd expect them to be outraged about this and figure they would try to come up with ways to keep minorities OUT OF WORK.

Liberalism is a mental disorder.
 
Democrats can't unify. Republicans can. That's a big part of why Trump won and why the left can't do anything.

The Deplorables can. The ones who have no compunction about publicly stating their intolerable views. Trump won because cowardly closet racists slithered into the voting booth to Make America White Again.

Yes, those racist disgusting deplorables who are now cheering along with Trump that Hispanic and black unemployment are at ALL TIME LOWS!!!!

If they were racist, I'd expect them to be outraged about this and figure they would try to come up with ways to keep minorities OUT OF WORK.

Liberalism is a mental disorder.

The 2016 election wasn't a referendum on the economy. The economy was doing just fine. A lack of comprehension of why black lives matter and attitudes toward illegal immigration were more likely deciding factors in the 2016 election.
The rest of what you say here is pretty much just crap.
 
Democrats can't unify. Republicans can. That's a big part of why Trump won and why the left can't do anything.

The Deplorables can. The ones who have no compunction about publicly stating their intolerable views. Trump won because cowardly closet racists slithered into the voting booth to Make America White Again.

Yes, those racist disgusting deplorables who are now cheering along with Trump that Hispanic and black unemployment are at ALL TIME LOWS!!!!

If they were racist, I'd expect them to be outraged about this and figure they would try to come up with ways to keep minorities OUT OF WORK.

Liberalism is a mental disorder.

Obama did far mor for black employment, everyone's employment for that matter, than Bonespurs.

800.jpeg
 
A lack of comprehension of why black lives matter
I agree that #BLM nonsense played a significant role in Trump getting elected. People saw American cities burning in race riots.

and attitudes toward illegal immigration
And the current crop of Democratic candidates is making it worse by for example saying that Obama was wrong for deporting illegals.
 
No, you've misconstrued the controversy I was referring to.
I don't think I have, but for the record, what's with this reviving of 70s controversies and using them against Biden?

It goes back to the late 60s and early 70s, when black children were believed by some psychologists to have impoverished intellects that were associated with poor linguistic skills. Biden was responding specifically to a question about reparations and race relations, not whether it was generally a good idea to read to children. Your article had nothing to do with it. Biden was associating racial bias with his past understanding of what the root causes were of poor academic performance in African American children.
My article had to do with the general idea that parental involvement significantly affects early childhood intellectual development. And if, on average, black parents are less involved (for whatever reason) it would have consequences to their children's academic performance no matter what the schools do. But saying anything that even obliquely suggests that black people might be partially responsible for difference in academic achievement is verboten because it is not politically correct. "Blame whitey" seems to be the only acceptable answer to anything race-related.

Again, you insert a red herring into the discussion. Biden was talking about exposing black kids to a wider range of vocabulary than he mistakenly believed they were.
Why do you think he was mistaken?
And it's not a red herring - it shows how NYC proposes to deal with a difference in academic achievement. Not very productively in my opinion.

His remarks really harkened back to the old controversy over IQ discrepancies between black kids and white kids. If you are really interested in it, you should read this article by Bill Labov that was published back in 1972: Academic Ignorance and Black Intelligence.
I think it's pretty obvious both genetic heredity and environment - including home environment - play a role in developing intelligence. Schools play a role too obviously, but can't be solely blamed. And I completely disagree with him that teaching black children using Ebonics (or AAVE if you insist) is a panacea, or even advisable. We do not suggest Appalachian children be instructed in Hillbilly either. That's based on the first part of the article. It turned out to be TL/DR.

Derec, you are "too deep in with identity politics" for me.
Not at all. I am merely responding to the identity politics that has infected the Left and the Democratic Party.

You can't stop posting things about race and your perception of liberal hypocrisy on that subject.
You can't really blame me given how much currency that topic is being given. Just look at the Democratic debates.

Elizabeth Warren doesn't dwell on the topic, and she takes positions on race relations that are fairly standard for Democrats (and that I wholeheartedly support).
You support "reparations"?
You think Michael Brown was "murdered"?

I'm not a fan of the term "reparations", but that is something that Democrats are going with.
Well that's the word that has been in use since well before it became fashionable for high-ranking Democratic politicians to support it. In any case, it's not the word but the concept that is objectionable.

My problem with it is that average Americans are going to perceive it as something other than what it is really about,
It's pretty clear what it is about - give free stuff to blacks because of their race.

and the label is what trips them up.
Nope. It's the race-based benefits that trips people up together with "collective guilt" used to justify it.

But Democrats are notoriously ineptt at framing policies in language that doesn't scare the bejeebers out of people who are not part of their ideological base. Republicans seem to be much better at that, IMO.
True, but in their defense, it is pretty hard to polish that particular turd.

Probably not. He really doesn't help her to pivot towards the middle ground, which she will need to do in the general election.
I think he would help her do that. Plus he is young (unlike her) and from the Mid-West, which is the region Dems lost to Trump.

He likely will not be able to deliver Indiana to her electoral count, and most Americans are probably still ignorant of the fact that he is in a same-sex marriage.
He doesn't need to deliver Indiana necessarily.

If she wins the nomination, then I suspect she will pick someone who will help her with turning out African American voters (almost 25% of Democratic voters) and Latinos.
92% of blacks already vote Democratic, as well as a large majority of hispanics. With her calls for reparations, calling Michael Brown's killing "murder" and opposition to deporting illegals, she'lll do fine with these demographics. Where she will struggle is Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania - i.e. states carried by Trump that Dems need at least some of.

As more people become aware of it, it will have a negative impact on large numbers of voters. Buttigieg actually has some negative electability issues in that area. However, she will likely find some other role for him in the federal government, if elected. Probably a cabinet secretary.

I read about it. Some black thug got shot by police and somehow it's Buttigieg's fault. I still think he is a viable Veep choice for somebody like Warren. Who do you think she would pick?
 
I like Andrew Yang’s answer bringing in how the health care system holds people hostage to jobs. But the “I’m Asian so I know a lot of doctors,” comment is weird and wrong.

It's not weird, it is clearly a reference to the proclivity of East and South Asian immigrants to press their children into stereotypically high-status jobs, like doctor, lawyer etc. People of Asian ethnicities are highly over-represented in medicine. Have you really never heard of this?

well, first off, I meant "weird and wrong" to say in a debate setting.
But secondly, I live in white rural America, so, no.
Just kidding, sort of, but that is exactly why it;s the wrong thing to say in a debate.
 
A lack of comprehension of why black lives matter
I agree that #BLM nonsense played a significant role in Trump getting elected. People saw American cities burning in race riots.

I will never fully appreciate what it is to live as a black person in the United States. To be a black father raising a child who is coming into understanding of how blacks are perceived by so many whites, as if just raising a child and keeping them on track isn't enough to deal with. To live every day with the anxiety of wondering how you and your family might be treated in a white society, of just going to a restaurant or any of a number of weekend social activities. Not outwardly racist acts but the subtleties of so often being seated near the restrooms while dining out or wait staff you always have to struggle to get the attention of because they just happen to never be looking in your direction or the extra precautions you take just driving or stopping along the side of the road. I'll try to understand and appreciate what a black person deals with on a daily basis but at the end of the day, I get to drive home as a white man.

But I get it. White people see news reporting on TV and the internet of angry blacks rioting. It's memorable. The end.

and attitudes toward illegal immigration
And the current crop of Democratic candidates is making it worse by for example saying that Obama was wrong for deporting illegals.

True to a point but the left half of the media played no small role in painting them (Biden) into that corner. I know this was a Biden/Castro exchange recently. I don't know about the "crop".
 
I will never fully appreciate what it is to live as a black person in the United States. To be a black father raising a child who is coming into understanding of how blacks are perceived by so many whites, as if just raising a child and keeping them on track isn't enough to deal with. To live every day with the anxiety of wondering how you and your family might be treated in a white society, of just going to a restaurant or any of a number of weekend social activities. Not outwardly racist acts but the subtleties of so often being seated near the restrooms while dining out or wait staff you always have to struggle to get the attention of because they just happen to never be looking in your direction or the extra precautions you take just driving or stopping along the side of the road. I'll try to understand and appreciate what a black person deals with on a daily basis but at the end of the day, I get to drive home as a white man.

But I get it. White people see news reporting on TV and the internet of angry blacks rioting. It's memorable. The end.

What you just described there is also how people who wear MAGA hats feel when they go out as well.
 
Back
Top Bottom