Democrats trying to unseat each other III

[Derec]

My paranoid theory? I think that Bezos and in a different way, Musk are attempting to create physical bases from which they can survive apocalypses or if they become persona non grata and have to flee the country--it gives them a platform from which to launch their new private kingdoms. Re: ship. At sea, in international waters, the captain is the law....

Ships are hardly self-sustaining. They'd have to dock somewhere to restock with food etc.

Realistically: I think Bezos had that yacht built to demonstrate that he could have that yacht built, and the bigger the better. Sort of the same theory but reverse in size for why some men of a certain age ride around in tiny but expensive convertibles....

Or maybe he really likes sail ships. I also think that is the explanation for the midlife sports car. Many men like such cars since childhood and in middle age they can finally afford one and the time left to enjoy something like that fully is running out.

 

[lpetrich]

That's a legitimate concept of economics, and there is more to economics than "have faith that the market will provide" capitalist fundamentalism.

In most cases though the market does provide.

Like providing military and police forces that will beat up people you dislike?

If they want to pay

I've yet to see any evidence that Jeff Bezos offered to pay big money for doing so.

to dismantle a bridge and put it back the way it was why the hell not? Some blue collar workers get plenty of overtime and are happy, so what's the downside?

I can't believe that I'm reading this twaddle.

Or at least design that yacht so that its masts are easy to remove. Jeff Bezos's superyacht was later towed out to sea using a different route that avoided that bridge.

I am sure the Dutch construction workers were disappointed at the lost overtime.

I've yet to see any evidence of that.

Joe Biden seems more union-friendly.

Too much so.

In what way?

 

[Toni]

My paranoid theory? I think that Bezos and in a different way, Musk are attempting to create physical bases from which they can survive apocalypses or if they become persona non grata and have to flee the country--it gives them a platform from which to launch their new private kingdoms. Re: ship. At sea, in international waters, the captain is the law....

Ships are hardly self-sustaining. They'd have to dock somewhere to restock with food etc.

Realistically: I think Bezos had that yacht built to demonstrate that he could have that yacht built, and the bigger the better. Sort of the same theory but reverse in size for why some men of a certain age ride around in tiny but expensive convertibles....

Or maybe he really likes sail ships. I also think that is the explanation for the midlife sports car. Many men like such cars since childhood and in middle age they can finally afford one and the time left to enjoy something like that fully is running out.

A ship that large could carry quite a larder and freeze full of food. And grow its own, as well.

 

[TomC]

A ship that large could carry quite a larder and freeze full of food. And grow its own, as well

I don't remember which superyacht it was. But one of the new ones has a 159' tender ship which follows along behind it.
Tom
ETA ~Apparently, Bezos has an even bigger one:
"Koru will be trailed by Abeona, a 246-foot support vessel. Superyachts often have support vessels following along behind them." ~

 

[lpetrich]

George Soros hands reins of $25bn empire to son Alex - BBC News

While they broadly share the same political views, he told the Wall Street Journal that he is "more political" than his father and that he would campaign against Donald Trump's attempt to run for a second term as US president.

"As much as I would love to get money out of politics, as long as the other side is doing it, we will have to do it, too," Alex Soros said.

In effect, a campaign-finance arms race.

He said the Open Society Foundations would pursue the same aims it had under his father including free speech, criminal justice reform, minority and refugee rights and backing liberal politicians. But he also wants to include voting rights, abortion and gender equity initiatives while pursuing a more domestic US-focused agenda.

 

[Derec]

It's more complicated than that: What Democrats Still Don’t Get About George McGovern | The New Republic

I disagree with that analysis. Neolibs had it mostly right. This new crop of identity politics, democratic socialist Democrats are pulling the party in the wrong direction.
Besides, the author is a far leftist.
I also do not think Howard Dean would have been a McGovern. And obviously Obama wasn't a McGovern. Bernie would have been one though.

Democrats have felt scarred by his loss for over half a century, even though the right wing of the Republican Party did not feel scarred by the loss of Barry Goldwater eight years before.

I am too young to have experienced either one directly. I wonder where the difference lies. I wonder if the 1964 election would not have been close had Kennedy not been assassinated. That was a shock to the entire US body politic.
From what I know about old Goldwater, there was a lot to like about him. And he doesn't seem to have been the inspiration to Reagan-era marriage between GOP and the Evangelical Right like Josh Mound suggested.

And not much else.

I do not think that is fair, although ACA was certainly his single biggest accomplishment.
One more note on Obama. You put him in the same category of moderate as Clinton. I think he started out that way. But he sadly shifted toward the end of his tenure. For example, on energy: he started out supporting an "all of the above" approach, which is sensible, pragmatic centrism. But at the end he caved to the loony left's opposition to pipelines, even cancelling the almost complete Dakota Access Pipeline because some radicals (including AOC before she became the AOC) had camped out there.

Fauxgressives? Red Sonja?

Yes.
Fauxgressives - faux progressives. A portion of the left, namely the segment to the right of so-called "liberals" and not as far left as outright commies, calls itself "progressive", but they are not in favor of actual progress. Btw, there is a lot of overlap between so-called "progressives" and "democratic socialists".
Red Sonja - Sonja Sotomayor had been, before the ascent of KBJ, the farthest left of all the SCOTUS justices.

How is he doing that? This seems like some MAGA right-winger grumbling about the jailing of January-6 insurrectionists.

By having his prosecutors argue in court for leniency based on political leanings of the #BLM insurrectionists like the deadly arsonist Montez Lee.
1/6 insurrectionists should be jailed. But so should the #BLM insurrectionists. The 2020 riots were much deadlier and damaging than the 1/6. And putting your feet up on Pelosi's desk should not yield a longer sentence than killing somebody in a politically motivated arson.

Right-wing whining.

You do not have arguments so you resort to name-calling. And you have not answered the question of why Minnesotans should be punished for investing with these new punitive taxes.

 

[Rhea]

When I read someone thinking they are holding in their own in a meaningful discussion but can’t stop themselves from assigning everyone a 4th grade taunt nickname to smear derision over their whole post,

I guess nicknames for politicians are only acceptable on this forum when they are given to Republicans? Or have you ever complained about such nicknames . Also three of them (Biden, AOC, Bernie) were connected to me comparing Biden's shift to the Left to the LOTR scene where King Theoden of Rohan was under the spell of Saruman and Grima Wormtongue.

I have a hard time taking their opinions seriously. All I can think is that all the opinions typed are just mean-spirited lashing out without substance or any meaningful supporting data.

I offered a lot of substance. I often offer supporting data in my post.
But this is also an informal forum. Some fun should also be allowed. You don't begrudge it to other posters, so why do you begrudge it to me?

You can tell a lot about the legitimacy of the idea expressed when it arrives in the clown car like that.

Do you feel the same for every post that uses a nickname for Trump or McConnel?

If it is done more than anyone else, by orders of magnitude, it comes across as a clown car filled with middle schoolers.

Others (likely including me) occasionally do it. But when it happens in a huge percent of posts and additionally 3, 4, 6 times in a single post, it says something very different from humor.

But you be you.

 

[bilby]

Ships are hardly self-sustaining. They'd have to dock somewhere to restock with food

Yeah, because there's no such thing as "sea food".

Oh, wait...

 

[Toni]

It's more complicated than that: What Democrats Still Don’t Get About George McGovern | The New Republic

I disagree with that analysis. Neolibs had it mostly right. This new crop of identity politics, democratic socialist Democrats are pulling the party in the wrong direction.
Besides, the author is a far leftist.
I also do not think Howard Dean would have been a McGovern. And obviously Obama wasn't a McGovern. Bernie would have been one though.

Democrats have felt scarred by his loss for over half a century, even though the right wing of the Republican Party did not feel scarred by the loss of Barry Goldwater eight years before.

I am too young to have experienced either one directly. I wonder where the difference lies. I wonder if the 1964 election would not have been close had Kennedy not been assassinated. That was a shock to the entire US body politic.
From what I know about old Goldwater, there was a lot to like about him. And he doesn't seem to have been the inspiration to Reagan-era marriage between GOP and the Evangelical Right like Josh Mound suggested.

And not much else.

I do not think that is fair, although ACA was certainly his single biggest accomplishment.
One more note on Obama. You put him in the same category of moderate as Clinton. I think he started out that way. But he sadly shifted toward the end of his tenure. For example, on energy: he started out supporting an "all of the above" approach, which is sensible, pragmatic centrism. But at the end he caved to the loony left's opposition to pipelines, even cancelling the almost complete Dakota Access Pipeline because some radicals (including AOC before she became the AOC) had camped out there.

Fauxgressives? Red Sonja?

Yes.
Fauxgressives - faux progressives. A portion of the left, namely the segment to the right of so-called "liberals" and not as far left as outright commies, calls itself "progressive", but they are not in favor of actual progress. Btw, there is a lot of overlap between so-called "progressives" and "democratic socialists".
Red Sonja - Sonja Sotomayor had been, before the ascent of KBJ, the farthest left of all the SCOTUS justices.

How is he doing that? This seems like some MAGA right-winger grumbling about the jailing of January-6 insurrectionists.

By having his prosecutors argue in court for leniency based on political leanings of the #BLM insurrectionists like the deadly arsonist Montez Lee.
1/6 insurrectionists should be jailed. But so should the #BLM insurrectionists. The 2020 riots were much deadlier and damaging than the 1/6. And putting your feet up on Pelosi's desk should not yield a longer sentence than killing somebody in a politically motivated arson.

Right-wing whining.

You do not have arguments so you resort to name-calling. And you have not answered the question of why Minnesotans should be punished for investing with these new punitive taxes.

Let me tell you what I remember about Goldwater. He was too far right for my father. In my father’s words.

The father who was a pretty close approximation of a small town Archie Bunker. Who, had he still been alive , probably would have died of a heart attack when Obama was elected. Who, if my some miracle, Obama’s election didn’t send to the grave, would have absolutely adored Trump. He never put up any kind of political sign in his life, but I bet his yard would have been a sea of red for Trump.

But Goldwater was too far right for my dad.

The best thing to like about Barry Goldwater is that he’s dead.

 

[laughing dog]

I am too young to have experienced either one directly. I wonder where the difference lies. I wonder if the 1964 election would not have been close had Kennedy not been assassinated. That was a shock to the entire US body politic.
From what I know about old Goldwater, there was a lot to like about him. And he doesn't seem to have been the inspiration to Reagan-era marriage between GOP and the Evangelical Right like Josh Mound suggested.

JFK represented a relatively youthful energy who represented hope for a bright future, while Goldwater represented doom and gloom. More importantly, JFK was assassinated in the prime of his political career, while Goldwater lost and election, faded away and died of natural causes.

You do not have arguments so you resort to name-calling.

You mean like 'fauxgressives" and "Red Sonja"? BTW, equivocatingn of an insurrection against the US gov't with a riot allegedly inspired by #BLM is a common tactic of MAGA dupes, Republican partisans, white nationalists and bigots, so it is an understandable categorization regardless of its accuracy.

And you have not answered the question of why Minnesotans should be punished for investing with these new punitive taxes.

What are these "new punishing taxes"? Minnesotans voted to put the DFL in the majority in both chambers and in the governorship. DFL candidates ran on platforms. There were no surprises to any voter who paid attention. I live in Mn. So, the majority of Mn voters generally got what they expected.

 

[Derec]

The alternative is, in practice, complicated bureaucracy that can cost as much to administer as the payments that it involves.

Not necessarily. Government programs and tax credits already involve income caps. They are not that difficult to implement.
This is not 19th century postage!

But then again, right-wingers seem to *love* bureaucracies.

I would not know, as I am not one. But I do not see how it would involve additional bureaucracy anyway.

Artificial intelligence is one of the great disappointments of my life. I remember optimistic projections of its progress in the 1970's and thereabouts, but such progress hasn't happened. We've gotten lots of other nice things, but not strong AI.

I am talking in half a century or so. Already technology is advanced that certain care tasks can be done with robots.

More like not wanting to spend money on such things. There is always plenty of money for right-wingers' favorite things, it seems.

National defense is explicitly a role of federal government according to the preamble to the constitution. Law enforcement is also an important role of federal, state and local governments. As is education.
And already parents get many subsidies. To keep increasing it without limit is irresponsible.

Pseudo left wing posturing.

Other than name-calling you have nothing. It is a legitimate objection to his plan, and you have no cogent retort.

Thus implying that yachts are good while children are bad.

I did no such thing. I do not object to Bezos having a yacht no more than I object to a middle-class family might buy a boat they can afford.
I also do not object to people having children they can afford. There is a huge difference between Musk having ten kids and somebody making minimum wage part time having ten kids.

 

[Derec]

It takes more than a little foresight to be able to purchase in bulk. It takes available cash, transportation and storage.

Depends on how much bulk we are talking about. Obviously, buying a whole side of beef is more difficult to pull off than just buying larger packages at the grocery store or at CostCo.

Working in the cafeteria was not something everybody had to do—it’s what you did if you were poor enough that your parents couldn’t afford lunch. It was a mark of shame—and intended to be a mark of shame. Everyone knew exactly why you were helping the lunch ladies.

On one hand it sucks, but it also teaches valuable skills.

Please show me the math that people making $30K/year are subsidizing the lunches of rich kids. Even with Georgia’s fairly regressive tax rates, a person earning $30K pays half the taxes of someone painting $60,000.

You do not need to pay less in taxes to subsidize someone. If person A pays less in taxes because they get a special tax break (like $300 per child even if he is making $120k/a) that money has to come from somewhere - and it is coming from people B, C, D who are not getting this special tax break, most of whom are making far less than A.

Elon Musk doesn’t pay $1 billion in taxes.

He paid $11G (billion) in 2021. Don't believe the propaganda that claims that billionaires pay no taxes. They are not part of the 47%.

 

[Derec]

Let me tell you what I remember about Goldwater. He was too far right for my father. In my father’s words.

Do you know what in particular your father found so objectionable about him?

The best thing to like about Barry Goldwater is that he’s dead.

That's not a very nice thing to say.

 

[Derec]

JFK represented a relatively youthful energy who represented hope for a bright future, while Goldwater represented doom and gloom. More importantly, JFK was assassinated in the prime of his political career, while Goldwater lost and election, faded away and died of natural causes.

That's my point. Josh Mound claims that nobody could have beaten Nixon in 1972. I doubt that very much. I think it applies much more to 1964, first and foremost because the country was still in shock over JFK's assassination.

You mean like 'fauxgressives" and "Red Sonja"?

It is different when directed toward a particular poster vs. an abstract ideology or a prominent politician.

BTW, equivocatingn of an insurrection against the US gov't with a riot allegedly inspired by #BLM is a common tactic of MAGA dupes, Republican partisans, white nationalists and bigots, so it is an understandable categorization regardless of its accuracy.

No equivocation here. The #BLM riots were much worse, especially in 2020. A number of people were killed (incl. an 8 year old girl in Atlanta) and billions of property damage were suffered both by government entities and the private sector. Additionally, territory was occupied for weeks in cities like Seattle or Atlanta, and for over a year in Minneapolis, as part of so-called "autonomous zones". The occupiers like Warlord Raz were never prosecuted for their insurrection though.

What are these "new punishing taxes"?

The new taxes on investment income mentioned upthread.

Minnesotans voted to put the DFL in the majority in both chambers and in the governorship.

And Americans elected Republicans to majorities in Congress and Trump into presidency in 2016. By your "logic" you should not say anything about the Trump tax cuts then.
That's not how discussion fora work. I know Minnesotans elected Democrats. That does not mean we should not criticize those majorities when they do stupid stuff.

DFL candidates ran on platforms. There were no surprises to any voter who paid attention. I live in Mn. So, the majority of Mn voters generally got what they expected.

Did you not say nothing about Trump tax cuts? Or any of his other policies? Because Republicans ran on a platform too in 2016. Or are you being hypocritical as usual?

 

[Derec]

Like providing military and police forces that will beat up people you dislike?

What are you talking about?

I can't believe that I'm reading this twaddle.

If Bezos wants to waste money on hiring a bunch of people to do that, what's the problem?

I've yet to see any evidence of that.

I made a reasonable assumption. Most workers welcome an opportunity at overtime.

In what way?

One example is Biden wanting to deny EV tax credits to customers of certain carmakers because their workers are not under control of a union.

 

[Derec]

A ship that large could carry quite a larder and freeze full of food. And grow its own, as well.

I guess, but any larder runs out. I don't know how many people you could feed from the food you could grow on a ship, even a long one.
And then there is the issue of repairs and replacement parts. Staying afloat indefinitely (for years, possibly many years, until the "apocalypse" settles down) is not viable.

 

[Derec]

If it is done more than anyone else, by orders of magnitude, it comes across as a clown car filled with middle schoolers.

I do not think I do it any more than other posters, certainly not "by orders of magnitude". But since you agree with them, you don't notice.

Others (likely including me) occasionally do it. But when it happens in a huge percent of posts and additionally 3, 4, 6 times in a single post, it says something very different from humor.

Only four in the same post. And three of them were part of the same analogy, so they hardly count as separate occurrences.

 

[Derec]

Yeah, because there's no such thing as "sea food".
Oh, wait...

Could one live just on seafood?

 

[Toni]

Let me tell you what I remember about Goldwater. He was too far right for my father. In my father’s words.

Do you know what in particular your father found so objectionable about him?

The best thing to like about Barry Goldwater is that he’s dead.

That's not a very nice thing to say.

I honestly do not know except that Dad thought he went ‘too far.’ It’s been some decades but I think I was just relieved.

 

[Toni]

It takes more than a little foresight to be able to purchase in bulk. It takes available cash, transportation and storage.

Depends on how much bulk we are talking about. Obviously, buying a whole side of beef is more difficult to pull off than just buying larger packages at the grocery store or at CostCo.

Working in the cafeteria was not something everybody had to do—it’s what you did if you were poor enough that your parents couldn’t afford lunch. It was a mark of shame—and intended to be a mark of shame. Everyone knew exactly why you were helping the lunch ladies.

On one hand it sucks, but it also teaches valuable skills.

Please show me the math that people making $30K/year are subsidizing the lunches of rich kids. Even with Georgia’s fairly regressive tax rates, a person earning $30K pays half the taxes of someone painting $60,000.

You do not need to pay less in taxes to subsidize someone. If person A pays less in taxes because they get a special tax break (like $300 per child even if he is making $120k/a) that money has to come from somewhere - and it is coming from people B, C, D who are not getting this special tax break, most of whom are making far less than A.

Elon Musk doesn’t pay $1 billion in taxes.

He paid $11G (billion) in 2021. Don't believe the propaganda that claims that billionaires pay no taxes. They are not part of the 47%.

What valuable skills do you suppose a ten year old child learns by scraping trays? Aside from humility/humiliation? I’m serious.

We didn’t have a dishwasher at home—so we all had our turns cleaning up the kitchen at home. It was the norm. FWIW, that’s not a marketable skill.