• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Demonic Males

As to why human societies have historically been patriarchal, one of the key factors, apparently, is that males are generally heavier, larger and stronger than females.

I would assume that's something the human species inherited from whatever species it evolved from.

Possibly that's something common to many mammals?
EB

As far as I know, it varies greatly between species overall. The sea anemone I just mentioned seems to be an extreme version of the reverse situation to ours. As to mammals generally, I don't know, but here for example is something from the relevant wiki page regarding non-human primates which says that in some species, there's more equivalence, and even some where the females are larger:

"Extant primates exhibit a broad range of variation in sexual size dimorphism (SSD), or sexual divergence in body size. It ranges from species such as gibbons and strepsirrhines (including Madagascar’s lemurs) in which males and females have almost the same body sizes to species such as chimpanzees and bonobos in which males’ body sizes are larger than females’ body sizes. In extreme cases, males have body sizes that are almost twice as large as those of females, as in some species including gorillas, orangutans, mandrills, hamadryas baboons, and proboscis monkeys. Patterns of size dimorphism exhibited in primates may correspond to the intensity of competition between members of the same sex for access to mates–intrasexual competition. Some callitrichine and strepsirrhine primates are, however, characterized by the reverse dimorphism, a phenomenon in which females are larger than males. For lemurs, for example, females’ dominance over males accounts for the reverse dimorphism."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism_in_non-human_primates#Body_size

One can only hope on behalf of little male lemur critters that either (a) female dominance is relatively benign or (b) that males can learn to band together to moderate things.
 
do bonobos really have massive orgies because they are non-aggressive or are they non-aggressive because they have so many massive orgies?
 
do bonobos really have massive orgies because they are non-aggressive or are they non-aggressive because they have so many massive orgies?

I'm no expert, and would guess it's both (in other words it may swing both ways if you'll excuse the pun) but based on what these authors say it would look more like the latter is the more relevant factor. If that's the case, I doubt it's the only factor. I'd guess the line between genetic and non-genetic factors is as blurry as it usually is.

Two interesting things to note: First, in bonobos (it says in this book) females bond readily (and have sex) so this seems to be part of the 'banding together' thing, leading to them forming alliances of mutual support. And when it comes to encounters with other troops, apparently it is females who will defuse the tension by going across to the other side in a friendly manner (usually friendliness towards a female member of the other group).

Second, apparently female ovulation is concealed (males do not appear to detect telltale odours for example) which, it is suggested, tends to reduce male-on-male aggression since the critical time to mate (and also stop other males mating) is not known. In chimpanzees, males appear to know exactly the day of ovulation and compete fiercely for copulations on that day.
 
Last edited:
As to why female bonobos bond more with each other than for example female chimps or gorillas, the reasons suggested in the book (and not being expert it's pretty much all I have to go on) include that bonobos have a more varied diet, and so suffer less shortages, which in turn allows for larger, more stable foraging parties and thus females get to spend more time together (many chimpanzee females, apparently, spend most of their time alone). As the authors put it, "Party stability, in other words, produced female power. For females to develop supportive relationships, they need to spend time together". Apparently, female chimps in captivity (where group stability and spending time together is somewhat 'enforced') do develop the mutually supportive coalitions against males that don't happen for chimps in the wild.

How similar factors might have played out for humans I don't know. Wasn't it likely the case (guessing here) that women spent a lot of time together in hunter-gatherer groups? Dunno. Also, how did the transition to agriculture affect things?
 
How similar factors might have played out for humans I don't know. Wasn't it likely the case (guessing here) that women spent a lot of time together in hunter-gatherer groups? Dunno. Also, how did the transition to agriculture affect things?

Some extant Aussie aborigine communities would serve as illustrations of the type of hunter/gatherer group you are thinking of. In these there is quite a degree of separation between the sexes socially as well as in terms of tasks. The sexes have well defined roles and areas of responsibiity - in which the other sex is not entitled to have a say.

Social control seems to come from several mechanisms. The women spend a lot of time together and certainly seem to bond in the way you describe, and within that group the paradigm seems to rely on cooperation, sharing and mutual support. Similarly, the men hang about together and when it's working, moderate each others' behaviour, often with retributive justice. When it's not working, according to modern standards, they escalate and support each other into violence which you could also call a bonding mechanism, I suppose. The thing that fits with what you're wondering about is that, in the final analysis, a coalition of the older women makes the decisions

PS Unsupported guess. Agriculture would isolate people and support a trading/competition model, replacing the cooperation/barter status model that you see in hunter gather societies. Violence can get you something then, that it doesn't if the survival of your community depends on cohesion.
 
Last edited:
My belief is that females and their monogamous male spouse banding together is an effective way to counter male patriarchy.
You're kidding, right?


Gender equality? Yep. You better beleive it! If I'm fighting to get the promotion or the (gender pay gap) pay rise ahead of a woman, it's because I will fight for my wife, my daughter, my nuclear family, my mortgage with every ounce of testosterone in my body - irrespective of whether my fellow employee competitor is male or female.
How unsurprising to find that you think women should be paid less for the same work. If it makes you feel any better, there are a lot of atheists around here who agree with you.
 
How much of this men being bigger and stronger than most women have to do with modern nutrition and better health over all? I am sure it is genes coming into play to a large degree but I read men back in the old days were not that much bigger than most women if at all. I look at old photogrpahs of people in the 1850's and the men do not seem to be as broadshouldered as they are today. The broadshoulders is what allowes us to have a lot more muscle mass and thus more strength in our arms. At least this is what I have read and wish someone would share any information contrary to what I have read.
 
How much of this men being bigger and stronger than most women have to do with modern nutrition and better health over all? I am sure it is genes coming into play to a large degree but I read men back in the old days were not that much bigger than most women if at all. I look at old photogrpahs of people in the 1850's and the men do not seem to be as broadshouldered as they are today. The broadshoulders is what allowes us to have a lot more muscle mass and thus more strength in our arms. At least this is what I have read and wish someone would share any information contrary to what I have read.

I suspect this is anecdotal bias on your part.

I tried to track down evidence, but I think this is one of those facts that is so much taken for granted that studies aren't really done on it. That said, if you do some searching on whether women prefer short or tall men, that should act as a stand-in.

Psychologically, physically bigger men are selected for, and so we should expect that (in most cultures) men should be physically bigger than women, even if only slightly so.
 
do bonobos really have massive orgies because they are non-aggressive or are they non-aggressive because they have so many massive orgies?

Or is it that neither is the case? Could it be that they live in an area that has ample, readily available, resources so there is no need for aggressive competition for those ample resources and, with the readily available resources, little time is required looking for those resources so plenty of time left for sex orgies?
 
The thing that fits with what you're wondering about is that, in the final analysis, a coalition of the older women makes the decisions.

I'm guessing you mean decisions for and about women. Or do coalitions of older women make decisions that affect the men, or the whole community?

It does seem to me, as you appear to think also, that on the whole, women's strategies typically involve accommodation and compromise more often than men's. But it's a generalisation. Personally, my guess would be that for whatever reasons (including evolution) men are more status-driven and therefore competitive, both of which probably have something to do with reproductive success, as almost everything seems to.

PS Unsupported guess. Agriculture would isolate people and support a trading/competition model, replacing the cooperation/barter status model that you see in hunter gather societies. Violence can get you something then, that it doesn't if the survival of your community depends on cohesion.

I'd be totally speculating to even try to answer. Part of me is a bit surprised that our resident feminist anthropologist hasn't chipped in yet, but maybe politesse is busy these days, not posting much or hasn't noticed the thread yet. :)
 
My belief is that females and their monogamous male spouse banding together is an effective way to counter male patriarchy.
You're kidding, right?


Gender equality? Yep. You better beleive it! If I'm fighting to get the promotion or the (gender pay gap) pay rise ahead of a woman, it's because I will fight for my wife, my daughter, my nuclear family, my mortgage with every ounce of testosterone in my body - irrespective of whether my fellow employee competitor is male or female.
How unsurprising to find that you think women should be paid less for the same work. If it makes you feel any better, there are a lot of atheists around here who agree with you.

I believe I am treating women as absolutely equal when it comes to competing with them for pay rises, promotions, perks...

Funny how highly paid women like Beyoncé, Meryl, Oprah don't advocate that ALL women in the media should be paid the same. Funny how highly paid women enjoy using their (well-earned) income to pay for the most expensive hair dressers instead of those on the "average wage".
 
I find conversations about comparative primatology fascinating, both as a topic of interest in and of itself, and as a cultural artifact reflecting the assumptions of the day. Public voices like to use speculative work like this to justify any number of sociopolitical ends, a process which as a cultural anthropologist I find interesting. In many respects, plunging an entity like "biology" or "physics" for social models to use is a more creative and flexible act than people realize, or that many would care to admit; the simple fact is that a significantly complex system can be used to justify any number of social positions, owing to the complexity and variability within that system. DNA may not be a literal book, but that doesn't necessarily stop the bioanthropologist from "poaching in the stacks" of genetic potentialities in much the same way that Michel de Certeau meant when he coined that phrase. We are always moving through the library of human knowledge with certain goals and purposes in mind.

This is getting long-winded, but I felt it should be pointed out. Every time someone tells you a narrative about "how things used to be", they are also telling you a narrative about "how things should be", whether they are making an essentialist argument of returning to base or a revolutionary argument about what we must overcome. Either way, I think it is important to remember that you are being told a story; one that though likely true and justifiable in some respects, chose its data points selectively and for subjective reasons. The human biological pedigree is vast and complex, let alone our cultural history, and any number of social models could be found in or justified by the situation various points along the way. Between ourselves and the chimpanzees, our genetic closest cousins, there sit nearly 4 million years of history at the inside, and maybe as many as 11 million years of genetic diversion and cultural invention. Don't let that number just drift past you. "History", to you, is comprised of possibly 1/2200th of the time depth since that divergence. And between have been many variations. Strict herbivores, omnivores, and mostly-carnivorous variants. Savannah dwellers, forest dwellers, tundra dwellers. Everything from troupes to tribelets to communist states. Gender-dyadic societies and gender-spectrum societies. Patriarchies and matriarchies both.

And let us not forget the physical differences; an adult human is so physically different from an ape that neotony has been suggested to explain our seeming lack of a meaningful final adult growth spurt. We don't have an estrus cycle, alone among the primates. We usually have the largest male sex organs as well as the largest mammary glands in the entire order. We otherwise also present the least overall sexual dimorphism, to the point that forensic anthropologists frequently mis-type sex, at a rate that would be inconceivable within a gorilla assemblage. So not only does biology allow for critique of cross-species analogies, sex and gender are areas in which biology should be warning us to be especially cautious; sex differences are one of the things that make us the most anatomically distinct from our cousins, not similar. And the other major difference, our brains - a chimpanzee peaks with mental equivalency to a human toddler - means that our extra-cranial anatomy may have much less influence on an individual's life than it would for any other primate. Chimpanzees, too, in turn changed greatly over time and no longer resemble our presumed common ancestor in closely analogous fashion; as we became dissimilar to them, they were also becoming dissimilar from us, in different directions for different reasons. Nowhere is this clearer than in studies of chimp-human cohabitation cases and experiments; our social instincts diverge from chimps qualitatively, not just in degree.

I am not saying that one shouldn't make observations or suggestions based on comparative primatology. We can, and do, and especially when we find that the entirety of the primate order holds something in common, the cultural anthropologist gets very interested indeed. We are apes ourselves, and despite our distinctive qualities as a species, our heritage shows its face somehow or other in nearly everything we do (and not just the primate portions of it, read "Your Inner Fish" sometime if you want your paradigm shook up a bit). But the natural limitations of such analogies should also be considered, and we are justified in always asking about the motivations of a given theorist when they highlight this fact from this cousin at this time rather than another.
 
Back
Top Bottom