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Demystifying Determinism

Your first example, where God knows I will eat the chicken means I will eat the chicken and you agreed that there is no free will in that case …

:banghead:

No, I did NOT AGREE that “there is no free will in that case.”

Please try to read for comprehension.

Also, I think you are screwing up the quote tags. When trying to quote your passages they always end up under someone else’s quote tag.
 
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This sure looks like the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy. You look at what happened, and then declare that that particular outcome was inevitable.

Let's go back to what you said about me saying, "Kylie MUST eat chicken."

I am using the word MUST in the sense of something that is required. If I want to get into the nightclub, I MUST show my ID to say that I am old enough to legally enter. If I want to legally drive a vehicle, I MUST have a license to show that I have the qualifications needed to do so safely.

So, if God (as used in your argument) knows for a fact that my eating of the chicken is 100% guaranteed to happen, then I MUST eat the chicken.

I’m sorry, this is wrong. My entire post was to show that this is a modal fallacy. All that MUST happen is that what you freely do, and what God foreknows, must MATCH. But you are free to do what you want. As I have explained, you are erroneously assigning MUST (necessity) to the consequent of the antecedent, whereas in this case MUST applies conjointly to antecedent and consequent together.

Recommended reading: Foreknowldge and Free Wiill
 
Please note, for the umpteenth time, I agree that if God foreknows you will eat chicken, then of course you WILL eat chicken. Your mistake is to confuse WILL with MUST. It is not true that if God foreknows you will eat chicken, then you MUST eat chicken. That is the modal fallacy in a nutshell. Please read the linked article just above for a detailed discussion.
 
Here, as explained in the linked article, is your argument:

gKD

~◊(gKD & ~D)

gKD ⊃ ☐D

————————

∴ ☐D


God knows D.

It is not possible for God to know D and for D to be false.

God knowing D entails that D is necessarily true.

Therefore, D is necessarily true.



The modal fallacy occurs in premise 3. Therefore the argument, while valid, is unsound.



The corrected argument:



gKD

~◊(gKD & ~D)

gKD ⊃ D

————————

∴ D



God knows D.

It is not possible for God to know D and for D to be false.

God knowing D entails that D is true.

Therefore, D is true.



All talk of necessity is dropped, and the conclusion is true but only contingently true; i.e., it could have been otherwise and had it been, God would have known this different fact.
 

Indeed, just as insane as trying to use determinism to rebut the existence of choosing - when we can see that choosing happens, and can easily infer that it is therefore a product of a deterministic universe.
Inferring is back?
If you want to infer that it is...
 
Quote:
''There are a number of reasons why I feel that modern philosophy, even analytic philosophy, has gone astray - so far astray that I simply can't make use of their years and years of dedicated work, even when they would seem to be asking questions closely akin to mine.

The proliferation of modal logics in philosophy is a good illustration of one major reason: Modern philosophy doesn't enforce reductionism, or even strive for it.

Most philosophers, as one would expect from Sturgeon's Law, are not very good. Which means that they're not even close to the level of competence it takes to analyze mentalistic black boxes into cognitive algorithms. Reductionism is, in modern times, an unusual talent. Insights on the order of Pearl et. al.'s reduction of causality or Julian Barbour's reduction of time are rare.

So what these philosophers do instead, is "bounce" off the problem into a new modal logic: A logic with symbols that embody the mysterious, opaque, unopened black box. A logic with primitives like "possible" or "necessary", to mark the places where the philosopher's brain makes an internal function call to cognitive algorithms as yet unknown.

And then they publish it and say, "Look at how precisely I have defined my language!''

It's not difficult, folks.

The state of the brain is not chosen.

The non-chosen state of the brain determines thoughts and actions taken. Entailment is not choice.


''When
it comes to the human brain, even the simplest of acts can be counter-intuitive and deceptively complicated. For example, try stretching your arm.

Nerves in the limb send messages back to your brain, but the subjective experience you have of stretching isn't due to these signals. The feeling that you willed your arm into motion, and the realisation that you moved it at all, are both the result of an area at the back of your brain called the posterior parietal cortex. This region helped to produce the intention to move, and predicted what the movement would feel like, all before you twitched a single muscle.''
 
Quote:
''There are a number of reasons why I feel that modern philosophy, even analytic philosophy, has gone astray - so far astray that I simply can't make use of their years and years of dedicated work, even when they would seem to be asking questions closely akin to mine.

The proliferation of modal logics in philosophy is a good illustration of one major reason: Modern philosophy doesn't enforce reductionism, or even strive for it.

Most philosophers, as one would expect from Sturgeon's Law, are not very good. Which means that they're not even close to the level of competence it takes to analyze mentalistic black boxes into cognitive algorithms. Reductionism is, in modern times, an unusual talent. Insights on the order of Pearl et. al.'s reduction of causality or Julian Barbour's reduction of time are rare.

So what these philosophers do instead, is "bounce" off the problem into a new modal logic: A logic with symbols that embody the mysterious, opaque, unopened black box. A logic with primitives like "possible" or "necessary", to mark the places where the philosopher's brain makes an internal function call to cognitive algorithms as yet unknown.

And then they publish it and say, "Look at how precisely I have defined my language!''

It's not difficult, folks.

The state of the brain is not chosen.

The non-chosen state of the brain determines thoughts and actions taken. Entailment is not choice.

''When it comes to the human brain, even the simplest of acts can be counter-intuitive and deceptively complicated. For example, try stretching your arm.

Nerves in the limb send messages back to your brain, but the subjective experience you have of stretching isn't due to these signals. The feeling that you willed your arm into motion, and the realisation that you moved it at all, are both the result of an area at the back of your brain called the posterior parietal cortex. This region helped to produce the intention to move, and predicted what the movement would feel like, all before you twitched a single muscle.''
Well, if you like, the description of choosing could be reduced to the motion of the quantum particles in the restaurant. But here's the thing, it would still be choosing. There would still be the particles that move together, walking in, sitting down, picking up the menu, considering the options, and telling the waiter, "I will have the Chef Salad, please".

The human brain, being of limited size, has already reduced reality to a symbolic collection of meaningful objects and events. And it manipulates these symbols to imagine what is likely to happen next, and to coordinate the body's actions to deal with internal and external events. The inference engine, in the left hemisphere, provides a verbal description of what is going on, explaining the brain to itself and to others, in a useful and meaningful way, using a vast collection of meaningful concepts, like "hunger", "restaurant", "menu", "choosing", "things that can happen", and "things that will happen".

While the state of the brain is affected by sensory data, it is also the case that the state of the world outside the brain is affected by what the brain chooses to do about what it sees and hears. There is an interaction between the two, the brain and the world, and each affects the state of the other.

The state of the brain is constantly changing, and it can change itself by its own deliberate actions. It can open a book or a newspaper and acquire new information. It can hop in a car and go grocery shopping, choosing what foods to buy, and noticing new items that the store has added.

In order for the brain to make sense of the world, and what it is able to do in it, it needs the notion of "reliable causation". "If I do A, then X will happen. And if I do B, then Y will happen", is the basis of its ability to control of what happens next. To accommodate multiple options, the brain also needs the notion of "possibilities", things that it "can" do whether it "will" do them or not.

These two notions, reliable causation and possibilities, are used together as the brain goes about its business of deciding what we will do. To set them at war with each other, to insist that only one of them may exist, undermines rational thought.
 
Presented with a formalized modal argument, DBT does not address the argument itself, but rather goes a-Googling in search of someone, anyone, who will attack modal logic itself! And sure enough he succeeds; the internet is gravid with crackpots.

This tells me that DBT can’t address the argument — otherwise, he would — and that he can’t rebut modal logic, because if he could, he would do it himself, rather than seeking someone to do it for him.
 
Presented with a formalized modal argument, DBT does not address the argument itself, but rather goes a-Googling in search of someone, anyone, who will attack modal logic itself! And sure enough he succeeds; the internet is gravid with crackpots.

This tells me that DBT can’t address the argument — otherwise, he would — and that he can’t rebut modal logic, because if he could, he would do it himself, rather than seeking someone to do it for him.

Typical ad homs and dismissal of opposing ideas.

Never mind your own googling. Never mind that you ignore anything that doesn't suit your belief in compatibilism.
Namely, that brain state is not chosen, yet it is brain state that determines what is thought, felt and done.

It is not philosophy or modal logic that falsifies the notion of free will, but neuroscience and physics.
 
Quote:
''There are a number of reasons why I feel that modern philosophy, even analytic philosophy, has gone astray - so far astray that I simply can't make use of their years and years of dedicated work, even when they would seem to be asking questions closely akin to mine.

The proliferation of modal logics in philosophy is a good illustration of one major reason: Modern philosophy doesn't enforce reductionism, or even strive for it.

Most philosophers, as one would expect from Sturgeon's Law, are not very good. Which means that they're not even close to the level of competence it takes to analyze mentalistic black boxes into cognitive algorithms. Reductionism is, in modern times, an unusual talent. Insights on the order of Pearl et. al.'s reduction of causality or Julian Barbour's reduction of time are rare.

So what these philosophers do instead, is "bounce" off the problem into a new modal logic: A logic with symbols that embody the mysterious, opaque, unopened black box. A logic with primitives like "possible" or "necessary", to mark the places where the philosopher's brain makes an internal function call to cognitive algorithms as yet unknown.

And then they publish it and say, "Look at how precisely I have defined my language!''

It's not difficult, folks.

The state of the brain is not chosen.

The non-chosen state of the brain determines thoughts and actions taken. Entailment is not choice.

''When it comes to the human brain, even the simplest of acts can be counter-intuitive and deceptively complicated. For example, try stretching your arm.

Nerves in the limb send messages back to your brain, but the subjective experience you have of stretching isn't due to these signals. The feeling that you willed your arm into motion, and the realisation that you moved it at all, are both the result of an area at the back of your brain called the posterior parietal cortex. This region helped to produce the intention to move, and predicted what the movement would feel like, all before you twitched a single muscle.''
Well, if you like, the description of choosing could be reduced to the motion of the quantum particles in the restaurant. But here's the thing, it would still be choosing. There would still be the particles that move together, walking in, sitting down, picking up the menu, considering the options, and telling the waiter, "I will have the Chef Salad, please".

The human brain, being of limited size, has already reduced reality to a symbolic collection of meaningful objects and events. And it manipulates these symbols to imagine what is likely to happen next, and to coordinate the body's actions to deal with internal and external events. The inference engine, in the left hemisphere, provides a verbal description of what is going on, explaining the brain to itself and to others, in a useful and meaningful way, using a vast collection of meaningful concepts, like "hunger", "restaurant", "menu", "choosing", "things that can happen", and "things that will happen".

While the state of the brain is affected by sensory data, it is also the case that the state of the world outside the brain is affected by what the brain chooses to do about what it sees and hears. There is an interaction between the two, the brain and the world, and each affects the state of the other.

The state of the brain is constantly changing, and it can change itself by its own deliberate actions. It can open a book or a newspaper and acquire new information. It can hop in a car and go grocery shopping, choosing what foods to buy, and noticing new items that the store has added.

In order for the brain to make sense of the world, and what it is able to do in it, it needs the notion of "reliable causation". "If I do A, then X will happen. And if I do B, then Y will happen", is the basis of its ability to control of what happens next. To accommodate multiple options, the brain also needs the notion of "possibilities", things that it "can" do whether it "will" do them or not.

These two notions, reliable causation and possibilities, are used together as the brain goes about its business of deciding what we will do. To set them at war with each other, to insist that only one of them may exist, undermines rational thought.

That the brain is constantly changing doesn't alter the fact that the state and condition of the brain is not chosen, yet it is the state and condition of the brain that determines what is thought and done.
 
You haven't shown that what they are doing actually is a choice.

It's a 'choice' because that's the word the overwhelming majority of competent English speakers use to describe the human process of selection. That's how words get their meaning.

You (and DBT) are using a completely idiosyncratic and nonsensical version of 'choice'.
So it's a choice because people think it's a choice?

I really didn't say that.

It's a 'choice' because that's the word people use to describe the selection process. Where else does the word get its meaning?

You may believe that choice is not what people think it is, but that doesn't change the fact that the thing they (in your view) misunderstand is still 'choice'.
A choice requires the presence of more than one option with a non-zero probability.

If one outcome is inevitable, then that option has a probability of 100% and all other apparent options have probabilities of zero percent and thus they are not true options. With only one option with a non-zero probability, it is not a true choice. At best, it is the ILLUSION of choice, as I've stated several times now.
You haven't understood a single thing I've said. :banghead:
You've arbitrarily redefined "choice" so it no longer means choice, and you're having a go at me? Ha.
 
There is the restaurant menu. It contains multiple POSSIBLE options. Choosing one option never makes the other options IMPOSSIBLE. For example, although you actually chose the Chicken, you could have chosen the Steak instead. Under the given circumstances, you NEVER WOULD HAVE chosen the Steak, but you still COULD HAVE.

To test this, why don't you order the Steak for me. Thank you. And now you see that you had the ABILITY to order the Steak all along.

To say that you CAN order the Steak never implies that you WILL order the Steak. It simply means that the Steak was available on the menu as a real option that you COULD HAVE chosen IF you wanted to.
So you are saying that in a deterministic universe where it is 100% guaranteed that I will inevitably "choose" the chicken...

... That it's possible for me to order the steak?

There's no point in trying to have a rational discussion with you, is there? You seem to be suffering from almost lethal levels of cognitive dissonance in order to believe two such contradictory positions at the same time.
 
This sure looks like the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy. You look at what happened, and then declare that that particular outcome was inevitable.

Let's go back to what you said about me saying, "Kylie MUST eat chicken."

I am using the word MUST in the sense of something that is required. If I want to get into the nightclub, I MUST show my ID to say that I am old enough to legally enter. If I want to legally drive a vehicle, I MUST have a license to show that I have the qualifications needed to do so safely.

So, if God (as used in your argument) knows for a fact that my eating of the chicken is 100% guaranteed to happen, then I MUST eat the chicken.

I’m sorry, this is wrong. My entire post was to show that this is a modal fallacy. All that MUST happen is that what you freely do, and what God foreknows, must MATCH. But you are free to do what you want. As I have explained, you are erroneously assigning MUST (necessity) to the consequent of the antecedent, whereas in this case MUST applies conjointly to antecedent and consequent together.

Recommended reading: Foreknowldge and Free Wiill
How many times do I have to say this?

If God knows what I will do (or any other situation you want to imagine where the future has but a single inevitable outcome that is 100% guaranteed to happen, no way to avoid it) and I am unable to change that outcome, then I am not making the choice freely!

If your situation is correct, then God can come to me, tell me what he knows I will do tomorrow, and either I will do something different to spite him (in which case his foreknowledge was wrong, and that can't be the case), or there is something forcing me to do what the foreseen outcome is (in which case I never had free will in the first place).

Funnily enough, every time I bring this up, people make excuses why they don't have to answer it...
 
There is the restaurant menu. It contains multiple POSSIBLE options. Choosing one option never makes the other options IMPOSSIBLE. For example, although you actually chose the Chicken, you could have chosen the Steak instead. Under the given circumstances, you NEVER WOULD HAVE chosen the Steak, but you still COULD HAVE.

To test this, why don't you order the Steak for me. Thank you. And now you see that you had the ABILITY to order the Steak all along.

To say that you CAN order the Steak never implies that you WILL order the Steak. It simply means that the Steak was available on the menu as a real option that you COULD HAVE chosen IF you wanted to.
So you are saying that in a deterministic universe where it is 100% guaranteed that I will inevitably "choose" the chicken...

... That it's possible for me to order the steak?

For YOU, yes, it's possible. For the universe, it's not possible; But YOU don't (and can't) know that, until you have considered and rejected the possibility.

The mechanism by which you inevitably order chicken, is that you inevitably reject the possibility of ordering the steak, in a process known to observers of this process as 'choosing'.

The past is knowable, the future is not. The process of changing from one to the other includes a routine we call 'choosing', and like every other part of a deterministic reality, it's completely unavoidable.
 
That the brain is constantly changing doesn't alter the fact that the state and condition of the brain is not chosen, yet it is the state and condition of the brain that determines what is thought and done.

Or, to put it more succinctly, the brain determines what is thought and done. The "state and condition of the brain" is the brain.
 
If God knows what I will do (or any other situation you want to imagine where the future has but a single inevitable outcome that is 100% guaranteed to happen, no way to avoid it) and I am unable to change that outcome, then I am not making the choice freely!
What if God knows that you will freely choose the chicken?

How can you escape your inevitable destiny to make that choice? Certainly, you could fool yourself by declaring that, despite its having every appearance of a choice, it's not one because someone knows the result in advance. But as you don't know, and can't know, unless and until you choose, it's completely irrelevant to you what a fictional omnicognisant entity might say about it.

You believe you made a choice. God disagrees - but God isn't as powerful or important as you are in this situation, not least because she doesn't actually exist.
 
So you are saying that in a deterministic universe where it is 100% guaranteed that I will inevitably "choose" the chicken...
... That it's possible for me to order the steak?

Correct.

There's no point in trying to have a rational discussion with you, is there? You seem to be suffering from almost lethal levels of cognitive dissonance in order to believe two such contradictory positions at the same time.

LOL! Ironically, my position eliminates cognitive dissonance. Here, suppose we are given two options, chocolate and vanilla. "We can choose the chocolate" is true. "We can choose the vanilla" is also true. These are two things that we CAN choose and both are considered "real" possibilities at the time of our choosing.

So, we choose the chocolate. We could have chosen the vanilla, but we chose chocolate instead.

What happens when the hard determinist tells us "No. You could not have chosen the vanilla!" THAT'S when we experience cognitive dissonance. Just a moment ago, "We can choose the vanilla" was true, and since "could have" is simply the past tense of "can", it is logically true that we could have chosen the vanilla.

If "I can do X" was true at any point in the past, then "I could have done X" will be forever true in the future when speaking of that same point. That is just the logic of the verb tenses. To claim that "I could not have done X" creates cognitive dissonance, because it contradicts the fact that "I can do X" was true at the start of the choosing operation.

So, the hard determinist has again broken the logic by which we correctly think about possibilities. And, we must think about possibilities every time we make a choice. And, according to neuroscience, making decisions is a primary function of the brain.

Now, it creates NO cognitive dissonance to say that "I WOULD NOT have chosen vanilla" at that time. After all, I had good reasons for choosing the chocolate, so, as long as those reasons stand, I WOULD NOT choose vanilla. But not "could not".

To eliminate the cognitive dissonance, determinism must stop claiming that we "could not have done otherwise" and assert only that we "would not have done otherwise".

The fact is that there are multiple possible futures, but only one actual future. And if you can understand the difference between a possibility and an actuality, then the truth of that fact should be clear.
 
That the brain is constantly changing doesn't alter the fact that the state and condition of the brain is not chosen, yet it is the state and condition of the brain that determines what is thought and done.

Or, to put it more succinctly, the brain determines what is thought and done. The "state and condition of the brain" is the brain.

The state and condition is the brain, but it is not a chosen state and condition, consequently what is thought and done is entailed by state and condition, not free will. What is thought and done is necessarily thought and done. No alternative, no 'choosing.'
 
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