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Demystifying Determinism

The compatibilist definition of free will is basically to act without external force, coercion or undue influence, ie, to act according to one's will or wish.

It is this very definition that fails because it ignores inner necessity. Inner necessity is just as much a problem for the idea of free will as external force, coercion or undue influence.
"Inner necessity" is also known as "personal responsibility"

Err, no. That's ridiculous.

”If the neurobiology level is causally sufficient to determine your behavior, then the fact that you had the experience of freedom at the higher level is really irrelevant.” - John Searle.


''The compatibilist might say because those are influences that are “outside” of the person, but this misses the entire point brought up by the free will skeptic, which is that ALL environmental conditions that help lead to a person’s brain state at any given moment are “outside of the person”, and the genes a person has was provided rather than decided.''
 
Free will is being asserted, not established as an element of the system. A flawed definition doesn't make it so.
Again, you are describing the definition as "flawed", because it's not Libertarian. That's what invoking "inner necessity" implies.

There is no implication of ''because it's not Libertarian.'

It fails because it neglects it's own terms. If force, or coercion or undue influence negate freedom of will, so does inner necessity.

Ultimately this entire waste of time of a thread boils down to compatibilists having a definition of free will that you refuse to accept. But defining words is not subject to authority, nor to any personal vetos.

It's not a matter of me refusing to accept the compatibilist definition.

Incompatibilists do nothing more than point out the flaws in the compatibilist definition of free will.

So it could be said that it is compatibilists who refuse to consider the flaws in their definition when this is pointed out, that they select one set of terms, while dismissing that which is inconvenient for their definition; inner necessity.

action’s production by a deterministic process, even when the agent satisfies the conditions on moral responsibility specified by compatibilists, presents no less of a challenge to basic-desert responsibility than does deterministic manipulation by other agents. '


When compatiblists say "free will" they mean what they say they mean - action without external interference - and not what you might want to insist that they ought to mean.

Yet internal necessity is just as much a problem for the notion of free will as external interference.

''The compatibilist might say because those are influences that are “outside” of the person, but this misses the entire point brought up by the free will skeptic, which is that ALL environmental conditions that help lead to a person’s brain state at any given moment are “outside of the person”, and the genes a person has was provided rather than decided.''
 
If it must happen as determined, no alternative actions, there no choice involved.

We observe the people in the restaurant making choices. So, obviously choice is necessarily involved.

This has been addressed numerous times. Each and every selection is performed necessarily. At no point in the evolution of events is there an alternate action.

As the 'selection' permits no alternate actions, the selection is not chosen, it is entailed by prior events and processes, both environment and brain activity in response to its conditions and events.




A single necessary action in any given instance does not meet the criteria of 'choice.'

We consider the many items on the menu that we "can" choose and select the single necessary thing that we "will" choose. That is exactly the criteria of choice: "1.a. The act of choosing; preferential determination between things proposed; selection, election." (OED)

Determinism only permits a singular, fixed path of events. Determinism entails 'must necessarily happen,' not might, may or will.

Where will happen equates to must happen.


Choice is still being asserted in contradiction of how choice is defined.

There's the definition. The action of selecting from the menu what we will order exactly matches the definition. The claim of contradiction is false.

No, choice by definition, requires the possibility of taking a different option when presented with a number of apparent possibilities.

The key word in relation to determinism is the word 'apparent.'

The presentation of a number of options doesn't mean that you can take any one of these at any given moment in time.

Again;

To illustrate: ''When you sit in the restaurant looking at the menu, it may seem that there are many things that you might order: the fish, the chicken, the steak, the onion soup. Eventually you will make a selection and eat it. To a determinist, causal processes dictated that what you ordered was inevitable. When you entered the restaurant you may not have known, yet, that you would end up ordering the chicken, but that simply reflects your ignorance of what was happening in your unconscious mind. To a determinist, there was never any chance at all that you could have ordered the fish. Maybe you saw it on the menu and were tempted to get it, and maybe you even started to order it and then changed your mind. No matter. It was never remotely possible. The causal processes that ended up making you order the chicken were in motion. Your belief that you could have ordered the chicken was mistaken.''

Therefore, choice within a deterministic system has not been demonstrated.

It is demonstrated every time that a person selects a meal from the restaurant menu. It is delusional to deny that choosing is happening.

Choice requires the possibility of taking any of a number of options. Your own definition of determinism does not permit taking any of a number of options.

Choice; an act of choosing between two or more possibilities.

The incompatibilist argument attempts to talk us out of what we see with our own eyes. They claim that we are having an illusion when we notice what is happening right in front of us.

What you see, given your own definition of determinism, does not involve the possibility of taking a different option or an alternate action.

What you see is what must necessarily happen. Bob must necessarily order Steak, Bob's wife June must necessarily order Caesar Salad.

This is according to your terms.

Neither choice or free will is compatible with determinism.

Free will is demonstrated every time that a person is free of coercion and undue influence as they decide for themselves what they will order from the menu. Since this is actually happening right in front of us, we must assume that it necessarily happens and that it is compatible with a deterministic view of reality.

Free will is being asserted, not established. The assertion ignores inner necessity and determinism's singular path of events.

Determinism: given the state of the world at any moment in time, there is only one way it can be at the next moment.


''How could I have a choice about anything that is an inevitable consequence of something I have no choice about? And yet ...the compatibilist must deny the No Choice Principle.” - Van Inwagen

Listen, Peter Van Inwagen, stop arguing that you have no choice. Either you choose something from the menu or you can go to bed without any dinner. Grow up kid.

Your own definition of determinism agrees with the words of Van Inwagen. No alternative actions equate to the Van Inwagen's no choice principle in determinism.



Actions that are performed freely are performed necessarily. It cannot be otherwise.

Actions that are performed necessarily will not be otherwise, even though they could have been otherwise. You're still tripping up because you refuse to acknowledge the difference between "can" and "will", between possibilities and actualities.

It can never be otherwise.

''Determinism means that events will proceed naturally (as if "fixed as a matter of natural law") and reliably ("without deviation).'' - Marvin Edwards.

'Fixed' and 'without deviation' negate all possibility of alternate actions.

Determinism: given the state of the world at any moment in time, there is only one way it can be at the next moment.

Ironically, it turns out that the incompatibilists are the ones "playing word games", taking their own figurative statements literally, and ending up miles away from the truth.

Nope, it's all based on the terms, conditions and definitions provided by compatibilism.

The compatibilist definition of free will is being applied to the compatibilist definition of determinism and it is found wanting.

Compatibilists untangle their riddles, test their claims against physical reality, and restore common sense.

Nah, too much rests on assertion.
 
Err, no. That's ridiculous.
Incredulity will get you nowhere.

You are the one who recognized the boundary of "inner" and "outer" necessitation. It is this boundary which divides responsibility, and your own acknowledgement of the boundary, your own acknowledgement, establishes that you do believe in the fountain of responsibility, in "inner necessity".

This is because the local system which necessitates something is "responsible" for it.
 
Did you not read what I said? That ''the ability to think, plan and act has nothing to do with will, yet alone free will.''
"The ability to (evaluate and make choices), (construct wills), (and execute those wills such that they are free to their satisfaction), has nothing to do with wills, let alone free will."

You keep trying to use words that encode the very things you are trying to deny the existence of.
 
Each and every selection is performed necessarily.

Yes, but so what? Nothing is changed by the fact that everything that happens necessarily happens. What happens still happens, exactly as it does happen. For example, choosing still happens.

At no point in the evolution of events is there an alternate action.

Do you see the first item on the menu? We can actually order that. Now, what do we call the second item on the menu? It is "an alternate action", something that we can order instead of the first item.

We can take a pair of scissors and cut away the rest of the menu, and we would still have two alternate actions.
Action 1: ordering the first item.
Action 2: ordering the second item.

Each action is the alternative to the other. That's what 'alternative' means.

As the 'selection' permits no alternate actions, ...

But there they are. So, to say that determinism "permits no alternate actions" is clearly nonsense. Whatever thought process led you to make such a claim is obviously defective.

... the selection is not chosen,

And it is just as much nonsense to say "the selection is not chosen", because "selecting" is "choosing".

... it is entailed by prior events and processes,

Again, SO WHAT?! Obviously it has been entailed that we will be choosing something from the menu. Obviously it has been entailed that we will be making that choice for ourselves. Obviously it has been entailed that we will not be coerced or unduly influenced while making this choice, thus it is obviously a choice of our own free will.

Deterministic causal necessity changes nothing. I was about to sarcastically say "Get used to it!", but everyone, including you, is already used to it, because we all live in a world of reliable cause and effect. Without reliable cause and effect we could never reliably cause any effect, and I would be unable to type these words into this comment. But, obviously, I am free to do just that.

both environment and brain activity in response to its conditions and events.

Certainly. What else would you expect?

Determinism only permits a singular, fixed path of events.

And that is what we always end up with, a singular path of events in which prior events fix future events. The single path of events that led me to choose the Salad instead of the Steak for dinner included my seeing the juicy Steak dinner on the menu, my recalling that I had bacon and eggs for breakfast and a double cheeseburger for lunch, my inner judgment that I really needed to balance today's diet by adding some vegetables rather than piling on more fats and proteins, so I decided to order the Salad for dinner.

That's a singular path of events, in which specific prior events led inevitably to a specific future event, my choosing the Salad, even though I could have chosen the Steak.

It is very simple and straightforward.

Determinism entails 'must necessarily happen,' not might, may or will. Where will happen equates to must happen.

I assume that you did not mean to include "will" in your "not might, may or will". We both agree that determinism entails everything that 'will' happen. And I think we should both agree that determinism does not entail anything that "might, may, or can" happen.

Most of the things that "might, may, or can" happen are actually entailed to never happen. For example, only the item on the menu that we actually chose was deterministically entailed to happen. All of the other items on the menu were entailed not to be chosen and thus not to happen.

But the choosing itself was certainly entailed to happen, otherwise it would not have happened. And, us doing that choosing ourselves, was also entailed to happen, otherwise it would not have happened.

And since it was deterministically entailed that we would be making that choice for ourselves, while free of coercion and undue influence, we must also conclude that it was deterministically entailed that we would make that choice "of our own free will". That is, not free of deterministic entailment, but simply free of coercion and undue influence.

Determinism insists that everything that happens was entailed to necessarily happen, exactly as we saw it happening, without any deviation. Determinism never changes anything.

No, choice by definition, requires the possibility of taking a different option when presented with a number of apparent possibilities.

I see you're still confused as to what a "possibility" is. The Steak, which we did not choose, was a possibility. That possibility was rejected when we recalled what we had for breakfast and lunch. But it remained a real possibility because it could have been realized if we had selected it. The fact that we did not select it never made it impossible to select. We could have selected it. But we never would have selected it given the current circumstances (what we had for breakfast and lunch).

That's what we call a "possibility", something that we could have done, even if we never would have done it.

The key word in relation to determinism is the word 'apparent.'

No, the key word in relation to determinism is "actuality". An "actuality" is very different from a "possibility". The actual future is something that "will" happen. A possible future is something that "may or may not" happen. Like we mentioned above, most possibilities will never happen.

The presentation of a number of options doesn't mean that you can take any one of these at any given moment in time.

The assumption of any presentation of options is that you 'can' take any one of them. There is no assumption that any specific item 'will' be taken, but only that each item can be taken. It's that distinction between "can" and "will". They do not mean the same thing.

Again;

To illustrate: ''When you sit in the restaurant looking at the menu, it may seem that there are many things that you might order: the fish, the chicken, the steak, the onion soup. Eventually you will make a selection and eat it. To a determinist, causal processes dictated that what you ordered was inevitable. When you entered the restaurant you may not have known, yet, that you would end up ordering the chicken, but that simply reflects your ignorance of what was happening in your unconscious mind. To a determinist, there was never any chance at all that you could have ordered the fish. Maybe you saw it on the menu and were tempted to get it, and maybe you even started to order it and then changed your mind. No matter. It was never remotely possible. The causal processes that ended up making you order the chicken were in motion. Your belief that you could have ordered the chicken was mistaken.''

If that is what determinism implies, then I would have to reject it, just as the author of that statement, Roy Baumeister, rejects it in the rest of that article.

But Roy's error is that same traditional error that you espouse, that deterministic causal necessity removes all possibilities. Roy is a psychologist. And he knows that the human mind cannot work without the notion of possibility.

But we can have a world of perfectly reliable cause and effect and still keep the notion of possibility, as I've demonstrated repeatedly.

In every day life, we all take reliable cause and effect for granted. We see it in everything we think and do, including our own process of choosing what we will do. The philosophical paradox that attempts to pit one of these against the other is a bit of silly nonsense. To portray this "dispute" as some 'deep' or 'profound' 'metaphysical' issue is the height of bull shit. And no sane person should ever take it seriously.

Actions that are performed necessarily will not be otherwise, even though they could have been otherwise. The philosophical error is failing to see the difference between "can" and "will", between "possibilities" and "actualities".

It can never be otherwise.

Of course it "can" be otherwise, but it "won't" be otherwise. You still refuse to see the difference. And conflating the two is making you say a lot of very silly things, like that choosing isn't happening when obviously it is.

The fact is that determinism can only safely assert that we "would not have done otherwise". It is a logical error to claim that determinism means that we "could not have done otherwise". The incompatibilist speaks of a figurative world that is out of touch with the actual world.
 


You have shown nothing.

Perhaps one thing; the knack of misrepresenting incompatibilism, which includes whatever I happen to say, quote or cite, even while brushing aside or rationalizing inner necessity as the ultimate restriction on choice and the notion of free will.

''An action’s production by a deterministic process, even when the agent satisfies the conditions on moral responsibility specified by compatibilists, presents no less of a challenge to basic-desert responsibility than does deterministic manipulation by other agents.''

''The compatibilist might say because those are influences that are “outside” of the person, but this misses the entire point brought up by the free will skeptic, which is that ALL environmental conditions that help lead to a person’s brain state at any given moment are “outside of the person”, and the genes a person has was provided rather than decided.''

The patience is mine.

I see you still can’t tell us who or what made that building.

No surprise. Because your hard determinism has no answer for this simple question.

I have addressed your example several times. You disappear for a while, then come back and pretend it didn't happen. Now you should go back and read what I said and instead of pretending that nothing happened, just respond to what I said. That would be the reasonable thing to do.

Even now you ignored what I quoted, addressing nothing, just more sniping.

But you didn’t address it. If you did, point me to it. Or just say it here:

Who, or what, designed and built the building, and how did that happen, if Roark was unable to make choices?

Simple question.

I addressed it several times, Nor am I searching through numerous posts in several threads to indulge you. You ignored my reply several times. Just as you ignore anything that I quote and cite.

The explanation is not difficult. It's right there in the quotes I posted a couple of days ago, which instead of reading and considering the implications of what was said in relation to your example, you simply ignored it.

As I noted, you responded, but you did not answer. Again: Roark builds a great building, requiring that he make thousands of correct choices — none of which, according to you, are actual choices. They are illusory choices, I-choices. So clearly, according to you, Roark did not build the building.

Who or what did?

Just answer the question!

At no point has the ability to think, plan and act been denied. So stop spruiking your strawman argument.

Did you not read what I said? That ''the ability to think, plan and act has nothing to do with will, yet alone free will.''

Where have you seen me deny the ability to think, plan and act? Well, I'll tell you, nowhere. You are making unfounded assumptions.

That you are still pushing your Roark strawman shows that you either not reading what I say, or provide, or you don't understand what is being said and provided..

Once again, read the terms and consider the implications.

Determinism entails that, in a situation in which a person makes a certain decision or performs a certain action, it is impossible that he or she could have made any other decision or performed any other action. In other words, it is never true that people could have decided or acted otherwise than they actually did.''

Do you see this; that''in a situation in which a person makes a certain decision or performs a certain action, it is impossible that he or she could have made any other decision or performed any other action,'' does not mean that we can't fucking think. or fucking plan or fucking act, it means means that whatever we think, plan or do is done necessarily.

That it is impossible for any alternate thought, plan or action to take place within a deterministic system.

So yes, your Roark does indeed think, plan and act, he designs and constructs his building, but that '''it is impossible that he could have made any other decision or performed any other action'' whist doing it.

Is that clear?

Or are you going to pretend that nothing was explained?

I’m not going to pretend nothing was explained. There is no need to pretend, because you explained nothing.

You did, however, admit that Roark thinks, plans, and acts, and designs and constructs his building. That, of course, is impossible without the ability to make choices. So I’m glad you agree that Roark has compatibilist free will, even though you will now deny that you agreed.
 
Err, no. That's ridiculous.
Incredulity will get you nowhere.

It's not incredulity. Your remark was in fact ridiculous. The reasons need not be repeated for the umpteenth time, you still wouldn't get it.

You are the one who recognized the boundary of "inner" and "outer" necessitation. It is this boundary which divides responsibility, and your own acknowledgement of the boundary, your own acknowledgement, establishes that you do believe in the fountain of responsibility, in "inner necessity".

There is no boundary. Determinism entails both inner and outer necessity.

It is the compatibilist who ignores the implications of inner necessity in order to give an impression of compatibility between free will and determinism.

It doesn't work. Which is why some describe compatibilism as a 'quagmire of evasion.'


This is because the local system which necessitates something is "responsible" for it.

You should know better than that. You invoke the word 'responsible' as if it has something to do with freedom of will.
 


You have shown nothing.

Perhaps one thing; the knack of misrepresenting incompatibilism, which includes whatever I happen to say, quote or cite, even while brushing aside or rationalizing inner necessity as the ultimate restriction on choice and the notion of free will.

''An action’s production by a deterministic process, even when the agent satisfies the conditions on moral responsibility specified by compatibilists, presents no less of a challenge to basic-desert responsibility than does deterministic manipulation by other agents.''

''The compatibilist might say because those are influences that are “outside” of the person, but this misses the entire point brought up by the free will skeptic, which is that ALL environmental conditions that help lead to a person’s brain state at any given moment are “outside of the person”, and the genes a person has was provided rather than decided.''

The patience is mine.

I see you still can’t tell us who or what made that building.

No surprise. Because your hard determinism has no answer for this simple question.

I have addressed your example several times. You disappear for a while, then come back and pretend it didn't happen. Now you should go back and read what I said and instead of pretending that nothing happened, just respond to what I said. That would be the reasonable thing to do.

Even now you ignored what I quoted, addressing nothing, just more sniping.

But you didn’t address it. If you did, point me to it. Or just say it here:

Who, or what, designed and built the building, and how did that happen, if Roark was unable to make choices?

Simple question.

I addressed it several times, Nor am I searching through numerous posts in several threads to indulge you. You ignored my reply several times. Just as you ignore anything that I quote and cite.

The explanation is not difficult. It's right there in the quotes I posted a couple of days ago, which instead of reading and considering the implications of what was said in relation to your example, you simply ignored it.

As I noted, you responded, but you did not answer. Again: Roark builds a great building, requiring that he make thousands of correct choices — none of which, according to you, are actual choices. They are illusory choices, I-choices. So clearly, according to you, Roark did not build the building.

Who or what did?

Just answer the question!

At no point has the ability to think, plan and act been denied. So stop spruiking your strawman argument.

Did you not read what I said? That ''the ability to think, plan and act has nothing to do with will, yet alone free will.''

Where have you seen me deny the ability to think, plan and act? Well, I'll tell you, nowhere. You are making unfounded assumptions.

That you are still pushing your Roark strawman shows that you either not reading what I say, or provide, or you don't understand what is being said and provided..

Once again, read the terms and consider the implications.

Determinism entails that, in a situation in which a person makes a certain decision or performs a certain action, it is impossible that he or she could have made any other decision or performed any other action. In other words, it is never true that people could have decided or acted otherwise than they actually did.''

Do you see this; that''in a situation in which a person makes a certain decision or performs a certain action, it is impossible that he or she could have made any other decision or performed any other action,'' does not mean that we can't fucking think. or fucking plan or fucking act, it means means that whatever we think, plan or do is done necessarily.

That it is impossible for any alternate thought, plan or action to take place within a deterministic system.

So yes, your Roark does indeed think, plan and act, he designs and constructs his building, but that '''it is impossible that he could have made any other decision or performed any other action'' whist doing it.

Is that clear?

Or are you going to pretend that nothing was explained?

I’m not going to pretend nothing was explained. There is no need to pretend, because you explained nothing.

But it was. Not only by me. Numerous authors and articles have explained the issue thoroughly.


You did, however, admit that Roark thinks, plans, and acts, and designs and constructs his building. That, of course, is impossible without the ability to make choices. So I’m glad you agree that Roark has compatibilist free will, even though you will now deny that you agreed.

For heaven's sake!! What's going on here? It's like you haven't read a thing.

Once again: nobody has ever denied the ability to think, plan or act.

The issue is the nature of cognition, thought, planning and action within a deterministic system.

You have your answer right here, posted countless times.... and ignored or misunderstood each and every time;

Determinism entails that, in a situation in which a person makes a certain decision or performs a certain action, it is impossible that he or she could have made any other decision or performed any other action. In other words, it is never true that people could have decided or acted otherwise than they actually did.''


That is the point, that within a deterministic system, whatever is felt, thought, planned and done, is a matter of necessity, that whatever happens, happens precisely as it must.

Why is this so hard to grasp? Why are you making suggestions that incompatibilists deny the ability to think and act?
 
Each and every selection is performed necessarily.

Yes, but so what? Nothing is changed by the fact that everything that happens necessarily happens. What happens still happens, exactly as it does happen. For example, choosing still happens.

So what? Because choice requires two or more realizable options, but events within a deterministic system have no alternatives, which is a fixed progression of events without deviation and this obviously negates the existence of choice within a deterministic system......yet the compatibilist asserts that 'choosing' is a feature of the system.


At no point in the evolution of events is there an alternate action.

Do you see the first item on the menu? We can actually order that. Now, what do we call the second item on the menu? It is "an alternate action", something that we can order instead of the first item.

Each customer in any given moment, thinks, feels and orders precisely as determined.

This is according to the terms of your definition;

''All of these events, including my choices, were causally necessary from any prior point in time. And they all proceeded without deviation from the Big Bang to this moment.'' - Marvin Edwards.

The error here is the inclusion of ''my choices,'' which of course is false because whatever you do was, according to your terms, entailed long before it comes to fruition.

We can take a pair of scissors and cut away the rest of the menu, and we would still have two alternate actions.
Action 1: ordering the first item.
Action 2: ordering the second item.

Each action is the alternative to the other. That's what 'alternative' means.

Alternatives exist, just not for anyone at any given time as the system evolves along a singular path.

That is still the point;

Determinism: given the state of the world at any moment in time, there is only one way it can be at the next moment.



As the 'selection' permits no alternate actions, ...

But there they are. So, to say that determinism "permits no alternate actions" is clearly nonsense. Whatever thought process led you to make such a claim is obviously defective.

It's precisely how you yourself define determinism. Your own definition specifies no alternate actions.

''Each state of the universe and its events are the necessary result of its prior state and prior events. ("Events" change the state of things.)'' - Marvin Edwards.

... the selection is not chosen,

And it is just as much nonsense to say "the selection is not chosen", because "selecting" is "choosing".

Water doesn't choose its path of flow across the landscape. A rock doesn't choose where to bounce down a hill. The moon doesn't choose to orbit the earth. The earth doesn't choose to orbit the sun. A brain doesn't choose it makeup and architecture, function or its state and condition......

... it is entailed by prior events and processes,

Again, SO WHAT?! Obviously it has been entailed that we will be choosing something from the menu. Obviously it has been entailed that we will be making that choice for ourselves. Obviously it has been entailed that we will not be coerced or unduly influenced while making this choice, thus it is obviously a choice of our own free will.

So what? The reasons are given above.


Deterministic causal necessity changes nothing. I was about to sarcastically say "Get used to it!", but everyone, including you, is already used to it, because we all live in a world of reliable cause and effect. Without reliable cause and effect we could never reliably cause any effect, and I would be unable to type these words into this comment. But, obviously, I am free to do just that.

I have not said that Deterministic causal necessity changes anything. Nor I have I said or suggested that you can't read and respond.

The issue here is the nature of thought and response within a deterministioc system, including of course the brain a deterministic parallel information processor.


Goldberg brings his description of frontal dysfunction to life with insightful accounts of clinical cases. These provide a good description of some of the consequences of damage to frontal areas and the disruption and confusion of behavior that often results. Vladimir, for example, is a patient whose frontal lobes were surgically resectioned after a train accident. As a result, he is unable to form a plan, displays an extreme lack of drive and mental rigidity and is unaware of his disorder. In another account, Toby, a highly intelligent man who suffers from attention deficits and possibly a bipolar disorder, displays many of the behavioral features of impaired frontal lobe function including immaturity, poor foresight and impulsive behavior

''Neurons are highly specialized cells that transmit impulses within animals to cause a change in a target cell such as a muscle effector cell or glandular cell.''

Further, the physical structure of a neuron is itself composed of 'determinants' in the form of he nucleus and cytoplasmic inclusions and organelles, etc....as such, a neuron is no more than biological mechanism that has evolved to process information in a set way.

''The cell body of a neuron, called the soma, contains the cell nucleus and the majority of the cytoplasmic inclusions and organelles. Radial extensions of the soma cell membrane, called dendrites, extend to other neurons and form the interface where impulses are transmitted from neuron to neuron. One long extension of the soma, called the axon, is the primary conduit through which the neuron transmits impulses to neurons downstream in the signal chain. Axons range in length from around 0.1 millimeters to nearly a meter in length with some neurons in the sciatic nerve. Axons branch into smaller extensions at their terminal end and eventually create synapses with the target cell (neuron, muscle cell, etc.).''

''Radial extensions of the soma cell membrane, called dendrites, extend to other neurons and form the interface where impulses are transmitted from neuron to neuron.'' - the network of neurons and their connectors are an example of a determinisic system. As are physical structure such as computers, internal combustion engines, etc.
 
Nothing is changed by the fact that everything that happens necessarily happens. What happens still happens, exactly as it does happen. For example, choosing still happens.

Because choice requires two or more realizable options, but events within a deterministic system have no alternatives, which is a fixed progression of events without deviation and this obviously negates the existence of choice within a deterministic system...

Obviously, realizable options (alternatives), are not excluded within a deterministic system, because they are listed there on the restaurant menu. Point out any option that you claim to be unrealizable and we will order it to demonstrate that it is in fact realizable.

Each customer in any given moment, thinks, feels and orders precisely as determined.

All events, including our choices, were causally necessary from any prior point in time. And they all proceeded without deviation from the Big Bang to this moment. This includes us opening the menu, considering the many possibilities, and choosing from them what we will order for dinner.

It makes no sense to claim that, what we just did could not have happened, when it necessarily had to happen exactly like it did happen.

Alternatives exist, just not for anyone at any given time as the system evolves along a singular path.

The singular paths of each customer in the restaurant inevitably led them to the same menu of alternatives, from which they each decided what they would order for dinner, each in their own unique way.

All of the alternatives were the same for each customer, and could be chosen, whether they actually were chosen or not.

Determinism: given the state of the world at any moment in time, there is only one way it can be at the next moment.

That would be the figurative version of the claim. The literal (and logically truthful) claim is that there is only one way that it will be at the next moment.

To say that determinism "permits no alternate actions" is clearly nonsense. Whatever thought process led you to make such a claim is obviously defective.

It's precisely how you yourself define determinism. Your own definition specifies no alternate actions.

No, it doesn't. Each state of the universe and its events are the necessary result of its prior state and prior events. This means that both the menu of alternatives, as well as our choosing one of the alternatives, was the necessary result of prior events. There were multiple things that we could have chosen, even though there was only one thing that we would choose at that point in time.

Determinism does not change what happens. In fact, determinism asserts that all events must happen, exactly as they did happen. This includes our considering multiple alternatives and selecting to realize one of them.

Water doesn't choose its path of flow across the landscape. A rock doesn't choose where to bounce down a hill. The moon doesn't choose to orbit the earth. The earth doesn't choose to orbit the sun. A brain doesn't choose it makeup and architecture, function or its state and condition......

Unlike water, a rock, the moon, and the earth, a brain actually changes its neural architecture every time that it functions. For example, when you study for a test, certain neural pathways are exercised and strengthened, resulting in a better recall of the information you need when taking the test. By choosing to study, you have deliberately decided to modify your own brain. And, most students are well aware of this fact, which is why they choose to study for a test.

I have not said that Deterministic causal necessity changes anything. ...

Good. Then at least we agree on that.

The issue here is the nature of thought and response within a deterministic system, including of course the brain a deterministic parallel information processor.

There is no argument about that either. We are both sufficiently familiar with neuroscience to conclude that the brain provides our mental functions. The brain has hundreds of specialized functions that preprocess sensory data and summarizes perceptions into thoughts and feelings. It also experiences these thoughts and feelings as new information, such that they too flow in a constant stream of deterministic events.

We're also both aware that the brain is subject to injury, illness, aging, and genetic anomalies that can cause it to malfunction. When mental illness is the primary cause of a person's bad choices, then the illness, rather than the person, is held responsible for the behavior, and is subject to correction.

When assessing whether a person acted of their own free will, the undue influence of a mental illness is exculpatory if it significantly impaired the person's ability to make a rational choice. In such cases the illness rather than the person is held responsible, and the person's illness is subject to medical and psychiatric treatment in a secure hospital rather than prison.

None of this is changed by deterministic causal necessity. Determinism can only claim that every event necessarily happens due to prior events that also necessarily happened due to their own prior events.

Determinism cannot by its nature exclude choosing from the list of real events. Determinism cannot by its nature exclude events where a choice is forced upon a person against their will. Determinism cannot by its nature exclude events where the person is free to make that choice for themselves according to their own goals and reasons, which is also known as a choice of one's own free will.
 
It's not incredulity
Arguing something is "ridiculous" rather than actually digging into it is argument from incredulity.

There is no boundary. Determinism entails both inner and outer necessity.
"There is no boundary, Determinism has both sides of the boundary"

You realize you contradicted yourself here ya?

Either your use of the terms "inner" and "outer" here are spurious and nonsense or the boundary is real.

Of course we know that I could draw a circle and say factually "the things necessitating this are inside the circle". It's a simple function of any system with local phenomena, anywhere where something can be "here" without also being "there".

If Determinism entails the ability to observe the boundary of inner/outer, then this allows identification of whether the "inner" necessitation or "outer" necessitation is more directly responsible.
 
You invoke the word 'responsible' as if it has something to do with freedom of will.
It's the essence and entirety of Compatibilist freedom of will.

You can only reject it in this way if by "freedom of will" you are referring to Libertarian freedom of will.

This entire waste of time - almost 1,500 posts - boils down to your unjustified and utterly false belief that everyone agrees with you that "free will" only has, and only ever can have, the Libertarian definition.
 


You have shown nothing.

Perhaps one thing; the knack of misrepresenting incompatibilism, which includes whatever I happen to say, quote or cite, even while brushing aside or rationalizing inner necessity as the ultimate restriction on choice and the notion of free will.

''An action’s production by a deterministic process, even when the agent satisfies the conditions on moral responsibility specified by compatibilists, presents no less of a challenge to basic-desert responsibility than does deterministic manipulation by other agents.''

''The compatibilist might say because those are influences that are “outside” of the person, but this misses the entire point brought up by the free will skeptic, which is that ALL environmental conditions that help lead to a person’s brain state at any given moment are “outside of the person”, and the genes a person has was provided rather than decided.''

The patience is mine.

I see you still can’t tell us who or what made that building.

No surprise. Because your hard determinism has no answer for this simple question.

I have addressed your example several times. You disappear for a while, then come back and pretend it didn't happen. Now you should go back and read what I said and instead of pretending that nothing happened, just respond to what I said. That would be the reasonable thing to do.

Even now you ignored what I quoted, addressing nothing, just more sniping.

But you didn’t address it. If you did, point me to it. Or just say it here:

Who, or what, designed and built the building, and how did that happen, if Roark was unable to make choices?

Simple question.

I addressed it several times, Nor am I searching through numerous posts in several threads to indulge you. You ignored my reply several times. Just as you ignore anything that I quote and cite.

The explanation is not difficult. It's right there in the quotes I posted a couple of days ago, which instead of reading and considering the implications of what was said in relation to your example, you simply ignored it.

As I noted, you responded, but you did not answer. Again: Roark builds a great building, requiring that he make thousands of correct choices — none of which, according to you, are actual choices. They are illusory choices, I-choices. So clearly, according to you, Roark did not build the building.

Who or what did?

Just answer the question!

At no point has the ability to think, plan and act been denied. So stop spruiking your strawman argument.

Did you not read what I said? That ''the ability to think, plan and act has nothing to do with will, yet alone free will.''

Where have you seen me deny the ability to think, plan and act? Well, I'll tell you, nowhere. You are making unfounded assumptions.

That you are still pushing your Roark strawman shows that you either not reading what I say, or provide, or you don't understand what is being said and provided..

Once again, read the terms and consider the implications.

Determinism entails that, in a situation in which a person makes a certain decision or performs a certain action, it is impossible that he or she could have made any other decision or performed any other action. In other words, it is never true that people could have decided or acted otherwise than they actually did.''

Do you see this; that''in a situation in which a person makes a certain decision or performs a certain action, it is impossible that he or she could have made any other decision or performed any other action,'' does not mean that we can't fucking think. or fucking plan or fucking act, it means means that whatever we think, plan or do is done necessarily.

That it is impossible for any alternate thought, plan or action to take place within a deterministic system.

So yes, your Roark does indeed think, plan and act, he designs and constructs his building, but that '''it is impossible that he could have made any other decision or performed any other action'' whist doing it.

Is that clear?

Or are you going to pretend that nothing was explained?

I’m not going to pretend nothing was explained. There is no need to pretend, because you explained nothing.

But it was. Not only by me. Numerous authors and articles have explained the issue thoroughly.


You did, however, admit that Roark thinks, plans, and acts, and designs and constructs his building. That, of course, is impossible without the ability to make choices. So I’m glad you agree that Roark has compatibilist free will, even though you will now deny that you agreed.

For heaven's sake!! What's going on here? It's like you haven't read a thing.

Once again: nobody has ever denied the ability to think, plan or act.

The issue is the nature of cognition, thought, planning and action within a deterministic system.

You have your answer right here, posted countless times.... and ignored or misunderstood each and every time;

Determinism entails that, in a situation in which a person makes a certain decision or performs a certain action, it is impossible that he or she could have made any other decision or performed any other action. In other words, it is never true that people could have decided or acted otherwise than they actually did.''

That is the point, that within a deterministic system, whatever is felt, thought, planned and done, is a matter of necessity, that whatever happens, happens precisely as it must.

Why is this so hard to grasp? Why are you making suggestions that incompatibilists deny the ability to think and act?

Mind-blowing. :eek:

“No one has ever denied the ability to think, plan, or act …” But that is, implicitly, what you must deny, in order to support your hard determinism! It is obvious that to think, plan and act, requires the ability to evaluate options, and to choose among them! If one lacks this ability, one is not thinking, planning, or acting … and yet, in the case of Roark, he had thousands of options to weigh, to come up with this beautiful building.

You agree Roark designed and built the building. How? According to your metaphysics, Roark is somehow compelled to make all the right choices; but compelled by what? And if he is compelled by some Other, to make all the right choices every step of the way, then this Other must be the true intelligence, with the true ability to make choices, and Roark is just a puppet with his strings being pulled.

As usual, you are not attending to the crux of the matter. Was the Big Bang intelligent? Did it foresee, plan, and execute, some 14 billion years ago, Roark’s building, the building itself somehow hard-coded into the initial conditions themselves? Yes or no?

If no, then was it Mr. Causal Determinism that made all the choices to build a beautiful building? Is Mr. Causal Determinism a real agent, with causative powers, who deliberates and chooses, with Roark his puppet? Yes or no?

If no, and if Roark is a puppet, then who or what is pulling the strings? Who or what designed this building? Why, in a process that is entirely mindless with no actual choices possible, should we end up with a beautiful building, as opposed to a disorganized heap of rubble? There are far, far more ways that the structure could end up a disorganized heap of rubble, rather than a flawless, beautiful, efficient structure. Just as with the the second law of thermodynamics, we should expect, in such cases, disorder rather than order,. As I’ve noted earlier and you predictably ignored, a fundamentally choiceless process can indeed produce the illusion of design, as in natural selection. But there is no analogous natural selection process going on in the erection of this building.

You cannot intelligibly tell me that Roark designed and built the building, as you just did upthread, while at the same time telling me that when confronted with choices every step of the way to bring about his creation, Roark actually had no choice in the matter at all. If no one or nothing actually chose what to do, every step of the way, in designing and building this building, but what miraculous concatenation of coincidental circumstances did we end up with a beautiful building rather than a disorganized heap of rubble, which is exactly what we ought to expect under your hard determinism?

You have no answer to this, and you know it. Otherwise, you would have already answered.
 
The last sentence in the penultimate graph should read, “…BY what miraculous concatenation of coincidental cirumstances” … The edit function failed to work for some reason, instead yielding a page-loading error message.
 
Perhaps you will say, as you’ve done before in different contexts, that Roark was compeleld by “inner necessity.” But since “inner necessity” is just a couple of weasel worlds for “myself,” than in so saying you must again agree that Roark has compatibilist free will. Your own words belie your claims.
 
You invoke the word 'responsible' as if it has something to do with freedom of will.
It's the essence and entirety of Compatibilist freedom of will.

The mechanisms and events are 'responsible.' Not morally responsible. Not ethically responsible. Not responsible through choice, will, wish or free will, but just by the token of non chosen inherent makeup and function.

''An action’s production by a deterministic process, even when the agent satisfies the conditions on moral responsibility specified by compatibilists, presents no less of a challenge to basic-desert responsibility than does deterministic manipulation by other agents. '


You can only reject it in this way if by "freedom of will" you are referring to Libertarian freedom of will.

The argument is that free will as defined by compatibilism is not compatible with determinism because the given definition is flawed because it neglects a critical element: inner necessity.

This entire waste of time - almost 1,500 posts - boils down to your unjustified and utterly false belief that everyone agrees with you that "free will" only has, and only ever can have, the Libertarian definition.

Yet I have not forced anyone to participate.
 
Perhaps you will say, as you’ve done before in different contexts, that Roark was compeleld by “inner necessity.” But since “inner necessity” is just a couple of weasel worlds for “myself,” than in so saying you must again agree that Roark has compatibilist free will. Your own words belie your claims.

Are you getting frustrated? It appears so.

Necessity essentially describes determinism. Everything that happens, happens necessarily.

Because everything happens necessarily, there are no alternate actions, ''determinism: given the state of the world at any moment in time, there is only one way it can be at the next moment,'' and without alternate actions, there is no choice: whatever is done must be done.

As with everything that happens, whatever Roark thinks, designs and builds, he thinks, designs and build necessarily, ie, it must necessarily happen as determined, not chosen, not freely willed.

”If the neurobiology level is causally sufficient to determine your behavior, then the fact that you had the experience of freedom at the higher level is really irrelevant.” - John Searle.
 
It's not incredulity
Arguing something is "ridiculous" rather than actually digging into it is argument from incredulity.

It has been 'dug into' for quite a while. Perhaps you should pay more attention to what has been said and provided?

After all this time, I've given up on that ever happening.

However, here's something for you to chew on;

''Some aspiring compatibilists maintain that only humans are judged morally because only they could have acted differently. Those who try this argument must realize that they are not compatibilists at all; they are libertarians. The acceptance of determinism is a defining element of compatibilism. It forbids us to say that evil-doers could have done good if only they wanted to. Well yes, if they wanted to, but they were determined to not want to.

''Hence, the compatibilist must find a defense for moral judgment that is applicable only to humans and that is safely nonlibertarian. He must look for a psychological feature that is presumably uniquely human and that is involved in the causal chain leading to action.

The general version of this feature is self-consciousness and the specific version is intentionality. In other words, a person is judged to have acted freely and (ir)responsibly if he was aware of his desire to do X, foresaw the consequences (e.g., how moralists would judge him if he did X), and endorsed the desire (thereby forming an intention).

Notice that a true compatibilist, who has gone on record saying that determinism is a fact of nature, must believe that the events of experiencing a desire, foreseeing the consequences of action, and forming an intention to act on the desire, are all determined.

The causal chain leading a human to lift a finger is longer than the chain leading a squirrel to lift an acorn, but it is no less deterministic (he who says that it is less deterministic is not a compatibilist but a closet libertarian).''
 
Nothing is changed by the fact that everything that happens necessarily happens. What happens still happens, exactly as it does happen. For example, choosing still happens.

Except that it isn't a case of choosing. Events that are entailed by the prior state of the system are not chosen because there are no possible alternate actions. If you must necessarily order Steak at dinner in the restaurant on Main street at 8 pm, there is no choice in the matter, you go to the restaurant on Main street and you order steak at 8pm.

That is not choice. That is not free will. It is entailment and fixed, determined will.


Because choice requires two or more realizable options, but events within a deterministic system have no alternatives, which is a fixed progression of events without deviation and this obviously negates the existence of choice within a deterministic system...

Obviously, realizable options (alternatives), are not excluded within a deterministic system, because they are listed there on the restaurant menu. Point out any option that you claim to be unrealizable and we will order it to demonstrate that it is in fact realizable.

You are still conflating what is generally possible with what must necessarily happen in any given instance as the system evolves from prior to present and future states without deviation.

What can generally happen is not the same as what must necessarily happen in any given instance in time.

That's determinism.




Each customer in any given moment, thinks, feels and orders precisely as determined.

All events, including our choices, were causally necessary from any prior point in time. And they all proceeded without deviation from the Big Bang to this moment. This includes us opening the menu, considering the many possibilities, and choosing from them what we will order for dinner.

It makes no sense to claim that, what we just did could not have happened, when it necessarily had to happen exactly like it did happen.

As all events within a deterministic system are causally necessary, they are never choices. There is no choice involved. Everything that happens simply happen as they must.

If you must do something, and you have no alternate action (events proceed without deviation), that is not choice.

Initial state delivers output without variation. Rewind and play the system over and over and each and every action will be precisely the same.

What Does Deterministic System Mean?
''A deterministic system is a system in which a given initial state or condition will always produce the same results. There is no randomness or variation in the ways that inputs get delivered as outputs.''

Is that choice? Not even close.
 
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