Derail from Feminist Gamer: Catcalling on the Streets

[Axulus]

If we are talking about behavior which is being suggested that we universally condemn, then yes, I think a consensus on the matter is important rather than listening to a single woman like you suggest.

Maybe we should get consensus about rape too before we universally condemn it. I mean, some women like it.

Are you suggesting no such consensus exists, <snip>?

 

[ksen]

If we are talking about behavior which is being suggested that we universally condemn, then yes, I think a consensus on the matter is important rather than listening to a single woman like you suggest.

Is your bar that every single women must hate it for it to be universally condemned? Or is there some partial repugnance that would be enough?

And given the OVERWHELMINGLY UNIFORM RESPONSE OF WOMEN presented so far, do you still have questions?

Rhea, now you're proving that women are irrational harridans just out to stop men from having a little good-natured fun.

 

[ksen]

Maybe we should get consensus about rape too before we universally condemn it. I mean, some women like it.

Are you suggesting no such consensus exists, <snip>?

I'm suggesting that the concern in your posts for consensus building on this issue is stupid.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Are you suggesting no such consensus exists, <snip>?

I'm suggesting that the concern in your posts for consensus building on this issue is stupid.

That's just your opinion, though. Is there any kind of consensus on that point?

 

[ksen]

I polled myself and got 100% consensus.

 

[Metaphor]

Apologies if posted before; this is making the rounds on Facebook

http://inkskinned.tumblr.com/post/101643868434/my-name-is-baby-and-you-lean-out-of-your-car-and

 

[dismal]

I polled myself

You must be very flexible.

 

[ksen]

This is true.

 

[Nexus]

It seems like they are throwing out a line to see if she will catch it.

Can you document a single instance of this actually working? I don't think it works, pretty much ever.

There are dozens of hidden camera videos on youtube of guys and girls hitting on women in discreet, polite, blunt or obnoxious ways. And there are always some women that respond favorably to the attention.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZjlDtUWVOI[/YOUTUBE]

 

[RavenSky]

Its not the fact that its jeans and t-shirt, but the snug fit which emphasizes her curves. Here's a guy wearing "just" a t-shirt and jeans while walking in NYC.


I think if he wore a bulky jacket and saggy jeans that hid his physique, I don't think he would have got as much attention.

Wouldn't the comparison be to be wearing a black tee shirt (by the way, hers was loose enough to have wrinkles at the waist, not that she should be constrained to that) and for him to be walking as fast and purposefully as she did?

Yeah.

Also. They claim 30 instances of harassment. There were EIGHT. Two of those were people who turned to look but said nothing. And maybe that's the other 22 that they didn't think were worth showing, because it wouldn't have supported their point. Those are not what the earlier video complains about as harassment.

And finally, yeah, that is harassment and he doesn't deserve it despite his tight tee shirt.

So

• a built model in a tight white see-through shirt walking at a near strolling pace gets eight catcalls in 3 hours, or about 3 per hour. Not one person says, "why are not answering me!?" of follows him. The one woman who asked for a number said, "guess not" and walked away when he didn't answer.

Versus

• a normal woman model (not super buff or super skinny) with hair obscuring much of her face wearing a black shirt walking _fast_ and purposefully and gets more than a hundred catcalls in 10 hours including a man following her for 5 full minutes and two who call out and follow that she is not responding, and the hundred does not _even_ include the ones who said nothing but only looked because that was not the main complaint, so 10 per hour.

And that's your come-back about why she should dress more modestly?

Also found it interesting that there were far more men catcalling the man than women.

(and I LMAO at that woman in the red coat who had to be turned around by her boyfriend. Funny!)

me too

 

[RavenSky]

Maybe we should get consensus about rape too before we universally condemn it. I mean, some women like it.

Are you suggesting no such consensus exists,<snip>?

Given all of the denials and justifications in every thread on the topic of rape, it appears to me that, actually, no, there is not a universal consensus condemning rape

 

[RavenSky]

Apologies if posted before; this is making the rounds on Facebook

http://inkskinned.tumblr.com/post/101643868434/my-name-is-baby-and-you-lean-out-of-your-car-and

This is all the answer Axulus should need about whether catcalls are compliments. Good find, thank you.

and compliments are supposed to make me feel good not afraid for my life, compliments are a way of saying “i care and i appreciate you and i thought you should know it,” and if you really meant it as a compliment, you’d care about how i would take it - but you don’t mean it like that, you mean it to show off, you mean it to make us object, you mean it to shove our names into your back pocket so you can tell your friends “i saw the HOTTEST LITTLE THING yesterday” and they can groan about how we just walked away because you don’t see us go home with keys in our fists and all the lights on and we keep 911 dialed just in case and we triple-check our locks and we don’t fall asleep at all because your compliment knocked us over and took who we are if we are all saying “it doesn’t sound like a compliment, it sounds like a threat,” if you really wanted to make us feel good - wouldn’t you stop doing it?

 

[Rhea]

Apologies if posted before; this is making the rounds on Facebook

http://inkskinned.tumblr.com/post/101643868434/my-name-is-baby-and-you-lean-out-of-your-car-and

I have not seen that before. It's spot on. Yes, all of that.

Anyone still trying to claim it's a "compliment" to make women and girls feel like that, because one of them once somewhere actually liked it and so it's okay to make all the rest feel like this? Still defending these "compliments"?

 

[thebeave]

Apologies if posted before; this is making the rounds on Facebook

http://inkskinned.tumblr.com/post/101643868434/my-name-is-baby-and-you-lean-out-of-your-car-and

I have not seen that before. It's spot on. Yes, all of that.

Anyone still trying to claim it's a "compliment" to make women and girls feel like that, because one of them once somewhere actually liked it and so it's okay to make all the rest feel like this? Still defending these "compliments"?

You can find something to support any view on the internet. I can find organizations that think the earth is flat. Here's one example I found about women who find the wolf whistle "complimentary":

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/3636135/Why-women-like-being-wolf-whistled-at.html

This article is perfectly in line with an experience I had with an ex-girlfriend. She giddily told me about an incident at work that afternoon where she and her attractive friend were walking through the corporate campus and some construction guy wolf whistled them. She was elated about it. I was kind of taken aback, to be honest, having been lectured a lot about proper business conduct, etc. I had considered the wolf whistle one step below a random ass grab. I explained to her that she was a victim of sexual harrassment, and it was degrading and she was being sexually objectified. She looked at me like I was from Mars. It was quite clear that I had just dropped a turd in the proverbial punch bowl. Later, I felt kind of bad telling her how she was supposed to feel about it, and realized its not my business to tell her that her feelings are invalid or wrong. She happily told me other stories similar to this (like how one of her coworkers told her that all the guys leer at her like gophers sticking their heads out of their hole as she walked down the hall (she had a nice butt!). I would just listen and smile, and not get all judgy on her. I think part of it is she was kind of shy and skinny in her teens and twenties and when she had kids she (as weird as this sounds), developed some curves and filled out nicely. So, attention like that was still sort of a novelty to her and I think she relished the new found attention. Just my two cents.

 

[ZiprHead]

I polled myself and got 100% consensus.

I hope you used lube.

 

[Rhea]

I have not seen that before. It's spot on. Yes, all of that.

Anyone still trying to claim it's a "compliment" to make women and girls feel like that, because one of them once somewhere actually liked it and so it's okay to make all the rest feel like this? Still defending these "compliments"?

You can find something to support any view on the internet. I can find organizations that think the earth is flat. Here's one example I found about women who find the wolf whistle "complimentary":

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/3636135/Why-women-like-being-wolf-whistled-at.html

This article is perfectly in line with an experience I had with an ex-girlfriend. She giddily told me about an incident at work that afternoon where she and her attractive friend were walking through the corporate campus and some construction guy wolf whistled them. She was elated about it. I was kind of taken aback, to be honest, having been lectured a lot about proper business conduct, etc. I had considered the wolf whistle one step below a random ass grab. I explained to her that she was a victim of sexual harrassment, and it was degrading and she was being sexually objectified. She looked at me like I was from Mars. It was quite clear that I had just dropped a turd in the proverbial punch bowl. Later, I felt kind of bad telling her how she was supposed to feel about it, and realized its not my business to tell her that her feelings are invalid or wrong. She happily told me other stories similar to this (like how one of her coworkers told her that all the guys leer at her like gophers sticking their heads out of their hole as she walked down the hall (she had a nice butt!). I would just listen and smile, and not get all judgy on her. I think part of it is she was kind of shy and skinny in her teens and twenties and when she had kids she (as weird as this sounds), developed some curves and filled out nicely. So, attention like that was still sort of a novelty to her and I think she relished the new found attention. Just my two cents.

Do you think the failure of men to ogle her would cause the same kind of nasty reaction that other women are reporting?
In other words which causes more of a problem - lack or catcalls or presence of catcalls?

And have you got a sense from what people have replied online about this video whether this is, like, a 50-50 of women who like it and women who don't, or more like a 9999999:15 kind of thing?

Your article shows exactly one woman's opinion. She has no data, no sources. You can contrast that with the unequivocally real responses to the NYC video which are legion (against).

So she is claiming all these women are dejected by the wolf whistling stopping. Uh, bullshit. I'm surprised you found her article credible.

Also, she wrote this 6 years ago. She claims,

But there's a flip side: by killing off one harmless, age-old male sport, George Wimpey may have spawned a compulsive new female pastime. Never mind trying to make the Grenadier Guards crack a smile - just watch as the hordes of scantily clad females parade past Wimpey sites across the UK in search of that elusive whistle.
How long will it take for the first builders to crack?

Has there been a rush on the bikini department over there yet? Bringing back the whistle?

 

[ZiprHead]

Apologies if posted before; this is making the rounds on Facebook

http://inkskinned.tumblr.com/post/101643868434/my-name-is-baby-and-you-lean-out-of-your-car-and

I have not seen that before. It's spot on. Yes, all of that.

Anyone still trying to claim it's a "compliment" to make women and girls feel like that, because one of them once somewhere actually liked it and so it's okay to make all the rest feel like this? Still defending these "compliments"?

Anyone who thinks they are just being polite by addressing only women they find fuckable are completely mistaken.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Is your bar that every single women must hate it for it to be universally condemned? Or is there some partial repugnance that would be enough?

And given the OVERWHELMINGLY UNIFORM RESPONSE OF WOMEN presented so far, do you still have questions?

No, did I say I did? Athena suggested we listen to just one woman. I suggested we get a consensus, and she objected.

- - - Updated - - -

Some men may well be sincere, but their advances are still as unwelcome as the salespeople who stand in the mall trying to catch a shopper's interest: The occasional person might not mind, and may even stop and buy, but the majority of people want the salespeople to fuck off and leave them alone.

(It's not that I don't like want a good deal on a birthday party at a paintball field, it's just that I don't want to stop and talk to you about it, as evidenced by my complete lack of interest in your booth and the fact that I haven't even broken stride.)

It is predatory, although that is not necessarily a bad thing. It's quite natural for (straight) men to take notice of women they find sexy. However it's poor form to express one's desires spontaneously to women on the street without regard to how they might receive it: Odds are that most won't welcome the attention.

If you never try, failure is guaranteed, right?

That does not give one a licence to engage in anti-social behaviour.

Well, this is all good news to me. I never open my mouth to strangers for fear I might be found annoying or the conversation unwanted. It looks like I had the right idea in mind. About the only time I talk to someone is under pressure from friends or acquaintances who think I'm being too quiet, or after at least 3 drinks.

Yup, you had the right idea all along if your conversation was going to be about her looks, her body or her availability.
Nothing wrong with looking pleasant and happy about life as people pass you by.
And nothing wrong with opening your mouth about the weather, the big local event, the cute kid or puppy that you both see - when you are both paused in the same place. When you accidentally or casually make eye contact with a stranger, a small smile and a nodded, "hello" are not harassing (although I realize city people rarely make eye contact as we rural folks do, but there's a reason for that, right? It's to show that greeting are not desired.)

But if you call out to stop someone you don't know from what they are already doing, in order to get them to include you in their day, especially if it is to discuss their physical person, then it will almost universally be unwelcome, annoying and harassing.

It's a continuum, but there are some things that are pretty clearly always on the creeper side of the line with regard to people you do not know:

• Trying to stop them from their existing path/speed/direction to notice you by calling out or shouting out at them when they are just going by.
• Making your comment about their physical person.
• Feeling annoyance at them if they fail to notice you(stranger) in a sea of many strangers.

Those three are not jovial, not polite, not friendly, and, for the target not safe.
They are harassment.
If any person in that video did something other than those three things, we could argue about whether they were harassing. But they all did. She was walking purposefully without inviting socialization. They violated that clear signal, every one of them.

They weren't calling out "Good Morning," to the happy world in general, they were calling it out to her, at her, expecting her attention to it.

But I'm specifically referring to those who walk by her who say "how are you doing?" or "hope you are having a nice evening" or even "wow, you are a beauty.". Yes, her looks are what is getting their attention, but is it really harassment? Maybe annoying, sure? Annoying for every woman? Are you sure about that? It seems like they are throwing out a line to see if she will catch it. If she doesn't, no big deal (any of those guys who act offended or admonish her for not responding to them are engaging in harassment, no question, I'm only talking about those who make a brief attempt and then go along their way when she doesn't respond). How many women think this is creepy? What about the men who are trying to grab the attention of the women who happen to get a response (because some women perhaps don't view it as harassment)? I'm not trying to justify creepy behavior here. I'm just trying to determine where the line is here and whether all women are in agreement.

If a woman in you life told you she was being called out daily by men on her way to work, would you spend this much time trying to convince her that is wasn't really harassment, or would you listen to her?

Of course I'll listen to her, but does she speak for every woman?

Must she? Is that the bar? Speak for 3.5 billion women or don't speak, you have no credibility unless you can prove that all women agree with you?

If we are talking about behavior which is being suggested that we universally condemn, then yes, I think a consensus on the matter is important rather than listening to a single woman like you suggest.

And concensus is ALL WOMEN?

So if ONE WOMAN thinks it's ok, then I and every other woman should change our minds about catcalling and just think my space, my body, and my time is available to public comment?

Once again, you are failing to read what is written.

No you are.

I asked you what YOU would do if a woman in YOUR life felt she was being harassed, would YOU listen to HER.

You took that and ran toward a universal statement and accused me of saying WE should listen to ONE woman and the one woman was speaking for ALL women.

I said neither thing.

 

[thebeave]

You can find something to support any view on the internet. I can find organizations that think the earth is flat. Here's one example I found about women who find the wolf whistle "complimentary":

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/3636135/Why-women-like-being-wolf-whistled-at.html

This article is perfectly in line with an experience I had with an ex-girlfriend. She giddily told me about an incident at work that afternoon where she and her attractive friend were walking through the corporate campus and some construction guy wolf whistled them. She was elated about it. I was kind of taken aback, to be honest, having been lectured a lot about proper business conduct, etc. I had considered the wolf whistle one step below a random ass grab. I explained to her that she was a victim of sexual harrassment, and it was degrading and she was being sexually objectified. She looked at me like I was from Mars. It was quite clear that I had just dropped a turd in the proverbial punch bowl. Later, I felt kind of bad telling her how she was supposed to feel about it, and realized its not my business to tell her that her feelings are invalid or wrong. She happily told me other stories similar to this (like how one of her coworkers told her that all the guys leer at her like gophers sticking their heads out of their hole as she walked down the hall (she had a nice butt!). I would just listen and smile, and not get all judgy on her. I think part of it is she was kind of shy and skinny in her teens and twenties and when she had kids she (as weird as this sounds), developed some curves and filled out nicely. So, attention like that was still sort of a novelty to her and I think she relished the new found attention. Just my two cents.

Do you think the failure of men to ogle her would cause the same kind of nasty reaction that other women are reporting?
In other words which causes more of a problem - lack or catcalls or presence of catcalls?

And have you got a sense from what people have replied online about this video whether this is, like, a 50-50 of women who like it and women who don't, or more like a 9999999:15 kind of thing?

Your article shows exactly one woman's opinion. She has no data, no sources. You can contrast that with the unequivocally real responses to the NYC video which are legion (against).

So she is claiming all these women are dejected by the wolf whistling stopping. Uh, bullshit. I'm surprised you found her article credible.

Also, she wrote this 6 years ago. She claims,

But there's a flip side: by killing off one harmless, age-old male sport, George Wimpey may have spawned a compulsive new female pastime. Never mind trying to make the Grenadier Guards crack a smile - just watch as the hordes of scantily clad females parade past Wimpey sites across the UK in search of that elusive whistle.
How long will it take for the first builders to crack?

Has there been a rush on the bikini department over there yet? Bringing back the whistle?

I addressed only the wolf whistle in my example. That is not in the same league as, for example, the guy in the video creepily walking alongside the woman for 5 minutes. No woman wants that (I don't think, but then again some women lust after serial killers, so what do I know?). I would venture to guess that a not insignificant portion (in double digit percentages, certainly not something like 0.001%) of women would see the wolf whistle as a compliment just as the woman in the article wrote. I have no doubt there are many others who agree with her. Anecdotally, I have seen more smiles from it than rage, personally, as I've indicated. And I think her last comment was somewhat tongue in cheek regarding the "scantily clad women".

 

[RavenSky]

Let's pretend that 10% of women genuinely enjoy catcalls (as opposed to smiling politely to avoid angering the lout who is doing the catcalling)... so?

Does this make it ok to catcall now?

Or does catcalling remain an aggressive, annoying, scary and/or insulting - but always unnecessary - intrusion on a woman's privacy and autonomy?