Destroying John McCain

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Senator John McCain has been in the news several times recently. There's been some back and forth with Trump. For example, McCain refused to vote against ObamaCare. Twitler said he's not a war hero. I'm guessing he hasn't actually gone rogue, but Drumpf requires absolute loyalty, no dissent at all. Now that McCain is going to die soon he has asked that Trump be barred from his funeral. Twitler was also snubbed by the Bush's in a way as Trump said he wouldn't attend Barbara Bush's funeral out of respect.

Now, most recently, we have the confirmation of Gina Haspel which is before the Senate. Apparently, she has some kind of history of managing torturers during the Bush "enhanced interrogations" era. So McCain stood against her confirmation. The Trump campaign (an aide) responds, "It doesn't matter. He's dying anyway." Put this in perspective. What is dying? Any dissent against Trump in the GOP? Any strong person in the GOP other than Trump? Or maybe the Greatest Generation and the intolerance of Nazis?

Whatever the case, most recently GOP news (otherwise known as Fox Business apparently), had an expert come on to destroy McCain's reputation as a torturee:

Retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Thomas McInerney appeared on Fox Business on Thursday and defended the use of torture by claiming it worked on Sen. John McCain when he was a prisoner of war in Vietnam.

McCain's experiences during the war are broadly seen as a large part of the reason he has opposed President Donald Trump's controversial nominee for CIA director, Gina Haspel, who has refused to denounce torture as immoral.

When asked about McCain's position on this issue by Fox Business host Charles Payne, McInerney said, "The fact is, is John McCain — [torture] worked on John. That's why they call him 'Songbird John.'"

"The fact is those methods can work, and they are effective, as former Vice President Cheney said. And if we have to use them to save a million American lives, we will do whatever we have to," McInerney, who has appeared on Fox News as a guest military analyst, added.

http://www.businessinsider.com/fox-news-military-analyst-torture-worked-on-john-mccain-2018-5

McCain has supported the Republican agenda and has only been a "maverick" on very, very few issues. When he has been against the grain, he's been right. What is going to happen when he's dead and his reputation destroyed?

 

[ideologyhunter]

I'm no fan of "mainstream" Republicans (to distinguish them from the Trumpanzees), but Trump will never be worthy of shining John McCain's shoes. Who says McCain's reputation is/will be "destroyed"? While it is true that Donald's job approval numbers have edged up to the low 40s, the stark record of his lies and grotesque bigotry cling to him like the smell behind a garbage scow. His supporters are, at present, putting their character assessment skills off to the side. As for torture working, read Jane Mayer's The Dark Side for a sickening look at Cheneyism at work. It's an American horror story and the conservatives are welcome to it as their legacy.

 

[Underseer]

Well said, Don.

During the Bush administration, McCain talked big about making members of the Bush administration pay for their torture-related war crimes, but when push came to shove, he rolled over, showed his belly, and voted with Bush just about every time.

And now, he voted for the pro-torture CIA lady, reminding us all that every criticism he made of other Republicans about torture was complete and utter bullshit. He's as pro-torture as any Republican, he just likes talking like someone who is anti-torture.

In other words, he's a lot like establishment Democrats. They like to talk like moderates, but vote like conservatives much of the time.

 

[repoman]

This madness of Trump and Co. not apologizing for saying shitty things IS the feature and not a bug.

Tons of leftist democrats already think that McCain is a total scumbag piece of shit and I bet your opinion of him 20 years ago was fairly poor as well.

 

[untermensche]

It's called politics.

Jefferson and Madison didn't get along very well with Hamilton.

They said a lot of nasty things.

Hamilton's contributions were down played and pretty much forgotten by three 8 year terms of presidents that opposed his political ideas.

Trump is nothing new.

Nobody says you can't get information through torture.

But you can also get misinformation and the information you get from people like McCain is already known.

McCain knew about the missions he flew.

The people at the receiving end of those missions already knew about them.

 

[Toni]

It's called politics.

p of
You're right: it is politics but it's politics done through a lens of self servicing and ignorant, mean spirited narcissism with a gigantic blob of schadenfreude.

Jefferson and Madison didn't get along very well with Hamilton.

They said a lot of nasty things.

Hamilton's contributions were down played and pretty much forgotten by three 8 year terms of presidents that opposed his political ideas.

Trump is nothing new.

Trump is uniquely ill qualified to his current position. And unlike the past, Trump is something that we can do something about.

Nobody says you can't get information through torture.

Lots of people say just that.

But you can also get misinformation

Misinformation is not information. It is the opposite of information.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

This madness of Trump and Co. not apologizing for saying shitty things IS the feature and not a bug.

Tons of leftist democrats already think that McCain is a total scumbag piece of shit and I bet your opinion of him 20 years ago was fairly poor as well.

20 years ago he was a middle of the road maverick. When his pod people replicant ran for White House in '08 he was a GOP yes man.

The big problem here is the anti-military stance being taken by an Administration that doesn't have much service behind these decisions. And where there is brass in the White House, there are no Eisenhowers, just MacArthurs. They are taking the input from a guy that was on the receiving end of this stuff and laugh it away, mocking him because he is, of all things, dying from brain cancer.

Worse yet, there is a near deafening silence in Congress on the remarks. Sen. Sanders and Graham have just come out to say they want an "I'm sorry" from the White House. The staffer should be fired. Jebus! Imagine if such a statement was made by the Obama Admin?! The Holy hell that would have reigned down from the GOP. Even the GOP doesn't care. This becomes more and more surreal with each passing week.

 

[untermensche]

Nobody says you can't get information through torture.

Lots of people say just that.

Who? Who says you can't get any information by torturing people?

But you can also get misinformation

Misinformation is not information. It is the opposite of information.

Yes. That is a problem.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Who? Who says you can't get any information by torturing people?

But you can also get misinformation

Misinformation is not information. It is the opposite of information.

Yes. That is a problem.

Well, it's implicit in "getting information" that this information is valid. If he's saying things which aren't true, you're not getting information about whatever topic you're asking about.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Who? Who says you can't get any information by torturing people?

The US Army...

From their manual on interrogation:

"... the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear."

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The US Army...

From their manual on interrogation:

"... the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear."

That becomes untrue though when tasked with getting intel by "any means necessary" or against "terrorists".

 

[untermensche]

The US Army...

From their manual on interrogation:

"... the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear."

That becomes untrue though when tasked with getting intel by "any means necessary" or against "terrorists".

It yields some reliable results too.

Knowing which are reliable and which are not is the problem.

And the way it was used in Iraq, where people were just rounded up and tortured on a fishing trip means you are torturing many people that have no information to give you, is a problem.

 

[Toni]

That becomes untrue though when tasked with getting intel by "any means necessary" or against "terrorists".

It yields some reliable results too.

Knowing which are reliable and which are not is the problem.

And the way it was used in Iraq, where people were just rounded up and tortured on a fishing trip means you are torturing many people that have no information to give you, is a problem.

No, the torture itself is a problem. It may be viscerally satisfying for some sociopaths but it is ethically and morally indefensible.

The reliability of the 'information' provided is so questionable as to be useless and is therefore not a justification for engaging in such practices.

 

[untermensche]

That becomes untrue though when tasked with getting intel by "any means necessary" or against "terrorists".

It yields some reliable results too.

Knowing which are reliable and which are not is the problem.

And the way it was used in Iraq, where people were just rounded up and tortured on a fishing trip means you are torturing many people that have no information to give you, is a problem.

No, the torture itself is a problem. It may be viscerally satisfying for some sociopaths but it is ethically and morally indefensible.

The reliability of the 'information' provided is so questionable as to be useless and is therefore not a justification for engaging in such practices.

I agree torture itself is the problem.

But it is not a problem because it never yields accurate information.

 

[Elixir]

The staffer should be fired.

I'm sure Cheato wishes he could fire her and pretend that her comments were "rogue". But he could very well end up being deposed in court if he did that, having let stuff that is as bad and worse come out of his piehole.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

No, the torture itself is a problem. It may be viscerally satisfying for some sociopaths but it is ethically and morally indefensible.

The reliability of the 'information' provided is so questionable as to be useless and is therefore not a justification for engaging in such practices.

I agree torture itself is the problem.

But it is not a problem because it never yields accurate information.

Agreed. It is also not the reason the Cavs sucked yesterday.

 

[repoman]

The staffer should be fired.

I'm sure Cheato wishes he could fire her and pretend that her comments were "rogue". But he could very well end up being deposed in court if he did that, having let stuff that is as bad and worse come out of his piehole.

This is from Plutarch about Alcibiades, so it may not be accurate in that it actually happened, but it seems to be the playbook Trump is running with:

Possessing a dog of wonderful size and beauty, which had cost him seventy minas, he had its tail cut off, and a beautiful tail it was, too. His comrades chid him for this, and declared that everybody was furious about the dog and abusive of its owner. But Alcibiades burst out laughing and said: "That's just what I want; I want Athens to talk about this, that it may say nothing worse about me."

Why the fuck are we not talking about policy, but this stuff?

Up to a point (when will this end?) Trump being a blustery asshole is making it easier to push and/or obfuscate his agenda. He also is getting his opponents overly emotional and making mistakes.


Going back to Alcibiades, what would be the best response to oppose his policies if your allies were yammering on about him docking his dog's tail instead of the current events?

 

[arkirk]

I have next to no patience for McCain. When he was shot down, he was attacking primitive people with a jet fighter. Just being there made him an asshole in my book. It wasn't that he was captured. It's what he was there doing...then OMG somebody in that tortured land got hold of a surface to air missile and shot his ass down. I did not condone any torture he experienced either, but can nevertheless understand. People here like little thought experiments. What if somebody in a jet plane bombed your parent's house, killed one of them and left the other without legs. What if that person fell into your hands? What if they had minds like Trump? He says torture is okay. He is psychotic. So was McCain. He had flown 23 missions in Vietnam bombing primitive people. Both Trump and McCain were at some time aligned like peas in a pod. I will be glad to see McCain leave the Senate. What takes his place? More of the same? I am felling a sinking feeling about the whole affair of our government and our place on this planet.

 

[repoman]

I have next to no patience for McCain. When he was shot down, he was attacking primitive people with a jet fighter. Just being there made him an asshole in my book. It wasn't that he was captured. It's what he was there doing...then OMG somebody in that tortured land got hold of a surface to air missile and shot his ass down. I did not condone any torture he experienced either, but can nevertheless understand. People here like little thought experiments. What if somebody in a jet plane bombed your parent's house, killed one of them and left the other without legs. What if that person fell into your hands? What if they had minds like Trump? He says torture is okay. He is psychotic. So was McCain. He had flown 23 missions in Vietnam bombing primitive people. Both Trump and McCain were at some time aligned like peas in a pod. I will be glad to see McCain leave the Senate. What takes his place? More of the same? I am felling a sinking feeling about the whole affair of our government and our place on this planet.

This may be a bit mellow in comparison, but even to his peers at that time he was a total dick and a showboater. That is an even worse indicator of a bad personality. Good people that are well bonded to their peers can be made into killing machines with a bit of twisting. McCain didn't even have that.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The reliability of the 'information' provided is so questionable as to be useless and is therefore not a justification for engaging in such practices.

Torture can produce good information--it's just that you have to be able to identify good information when you get it and most of the time you can't. If you capture 10 guys and torture them for information and they all say the same thing it's probably right. If they give 10 different answers they're lying.