Did United Airlines have any other choice than to eject that passenger?

[zorq]

They weren't being greedy though. They needed 4 flight crew members to get to Newark so the morning flight wouldn't be delayed or possibly canceled. With all the pieces there that could have inconvenienced a thousand fliers or more. That could mean delayed flights, missed flights for a lot of people and then their customer service would have to deal with all that. It was the doctor being greedy and not being empathetic to customer service of which he should understand.

You are contradicting yourself, blindly, first it's "corporations need to hurt 1% of people to make money," now it's, "they don't care about the money, they just want to help people travel." Please. If this corporation wasn't greedy it would not mind paying the market price for the seat they wanted back over smashing in the face of their chosen victim.

Just as a common thug values the $20 in your pocket over the black eye he leaves you with is motivated by greed.

As it is, it was clearly money they valued over the health and welfare of human people. You know, actual citizens with actual blood in their veins as opposed to intangible legal constructs designed to help protect rich people from liability risks involved in running a business.

 

[RavenSky]

Except being bumped from a flight is normal practice and happens to thousands of people a year and even some in the situation of where they get on a plane and then have to give up their seats.

That doesn't make it ethical

The situation with an airline is that it is more complex than other businesses and they can't do what other businesses do when they overbook, they can't queue. Waiting an hour in line at Space mountain in Disneyworld is an overbooking situation but it's solved by making people stand in line. An airline can't make people stand in line.

very bad analogy. No one purchases a ticket for a specific number of seats on a specific cart at a specific time at Space Mountain. IF people did, and Disney was over-selling the seats on that cart at that time, then Disney would be wrong too.

This guy was a doctor and doctors overbook all the time too. I have waited over an hour for a doctor and sometimes even in the room inside the office.

yes, some doctors do also overbook, and they are wrong, too. But just because some doctors do this, you have zero evidence that THIS doctor did.

Moreover, most delays at a doctor's office are caused by patients showing up late, or the doctor dealing with a medical emergency. This is not the same as selling the same seat(s) more than once.

 

[bilby]

If you sold something to someone and now you want it back, there are lots of ways to get it.

You can use violence, or deceit, or you can extort it from them by any number of possible threats. You could use blackmail; you can use peer-pressure; you can threaten his friends or family; you can pay someone else to beat him up and take it from him.

You can pretend that any of these are justified actions, for any of thousands of reasons.

But the only moral thing to do is to agree with him a fair exchange. Offer him money (or goods, or services), and keep increasing your offer until either he accepts it, or the amount you need to offer exceeds the amount you are willing to pay - at which point you just have to accept that you cannot have it back, because you can't afford it.

This situation is as simple as that.

He bought a seat; UA can buy it back from him at a mutually agreed price, or they can let him keep it, or they can do something immoral. Those are the only three possibilities.

They chose the latter.

Nothing else that anyone can say about the situation changes any of this.

He didn't buy the ticket at the door to the Jet. He bought it well before. They could have easily stopped him from entering the Jetway and saying, "You've been involuntarily chosen to be bumped, let's try and figure out how to get you where you are going" You agree to that when you buy the ticket. The only difference between the entrance to the Jetway and in the plane is the length of the Jetway and a few feet. However by being allowed to possibly go on it was more convenient for all the passengers and helped them get jetted off in a more timely matter.

That practice is also immoral.

Immorality is not lessened by frequency of occurrence, nor by the fact that many people tolerate it, nor even by legality.

 

[bilby]

They weren't being greedy though. They needed ...

Not needed. Wanted.

Indeed.

And if not getting the seat for their crew really would have caused massive disruption, that simply implies that they should have been prepared to offer a very large sum indeed to recover that seat.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You don't pre-order apples so the comparison isn't valid. The closest equivalent is you advertise the apples and don't have them--and the law understands that, that's why we have rain checks.

Whether or not they are pre-ordered is irrelevant and so the analogy remains valid.

Other ticketing systems don't do the same thing, even if you pre-order, such as if you pre-order your tickets to a play. They don't kick you out of a theatre after you are there sitting in your seat because a pretty woman walked in they want to have the seat or for any other reason, unless you are violent, crying "fire fire!" or involved in some other dangerous illegal activity. They certainly do not send the police in to beat you up because it's raining.

They don't?

There are specific rules that apply if your hotel overbooks. They owe you one night's accommodation at a hotel of at least equal level. That's all and that assumes there is a room to be found.

Your rental car company overbooks? Too bad, you get a big, fat goose egg.

 

[whichphilosophy]

First, as others have pointed out, the passenger cannot be wildly in the wrong if they have been sold a seat and seated. It is not the passenger's fault that the airline allowed too many passengers on the plane. 2nd, why would an airline allow a drunk passenger on a plane? Third, please provide disinterested evidence that most of the time the passenger is wildly in the wrong.

I find it fascinating that you are defending a fuckwitted airline response to a self-inflicted problem. All the airlines have to do is to make an offer available that someone accepts. That solution is used all the time in a market economy, and it seems to work.

Except being bumped from a flight is normal practice and happens to thousands of people a year and even some in the situation of where they get on a plane and then have to give up their seats.

The situation with an airline is that it is more complex than other businesses and they can't do what other businesses do when they overbook, they can't queue. Waiting an hour in line at Space mountain in Disneyworld is an overbooking situation but it's solved by making people stand in line. An airline can't make people stand in line. This guy was a doctor and doctors overbook all the time too. I have waited over an hour for a doctor and sometimes even in the room inside the office.

It will be curious how many times airlines have to use the procedure Loren outlined.

It looks like selling standby tickets disguised as low cost economy. In fact a low cost economy flier can lose a seat to a higher price payer who pays full cost for the seat. Airlines should be forced to exercise Duty of Care to consumers at the point of sale to ensure a passenger goes from A to B as promised, but clearly advises any risks and compensation would be offered.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Your response didn't address the "beating the shit out of their customers" portion of bilby's post. It was kind of the main point.

The only person that beat the shit out of Dao was Dao.

- - - Updated - - -

Except it wasn't United who beat the passenger up, it was whom they thought were police. Most people when seeing security in that situation would have left peacefully too. And he got lucky, or unlucky since he was flirting with trespassing on at an airport.

The police didn't beat Dao up. He got hurt trying to break away from the police. The force was entirely his own.

 

[Juma]

Whether or not they are pre-ordered is irrelevant and so the analogy remains valid.

Other ticketing systems don't do the same thing, even if you pre-order, such as if you pre-order your tickets to a play. They don't kick you out of a theatre after you are there sitting in your seat because a pretty woman walked in they want to have the seat or for any other reason, unless you are violent, crying "fire fire!" or involved in some other dangerous illegal activity. They certainly do not send the police in to beat you up because it's raining.

They don't?

There are specific rules that apply if your hotel overbooks. They owe you one night's accommodation at a hotel of at least equal level. That's all and that assumes there is a room to be found.

Your rental car company overbooks? Too bad, you get a big, fat goose egg.

You are talking about booked stuff. The flight tickets wasnt just booked, it was fully paid for.

 

[DBT]

If I remember correctly, he was forcefully removed from a seat he had paid for and occupied. Nobody had a right to lay a hand on him, he was doing nothing wrong...so manhandling him, removing him forcefully for refusing to vacate a seat that he had paid for and occupied is clearly a case of assault.

The fault lies entirely with the airline, firstly for overselling seats and secondly for the way they handled the situation.

 

[Arctish]

The police didn't beat Dao up. He got hurt trying to break away from the police. The force was entirely his own.

You made that up.

Seriously, Loren. You made that up and then convinced yourself it really happened because you found it so believable.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They don't?

There are specific rules that apply if your hotel overbooks. They owe you one night's accommodation at a hotel of at least equal level. That's all and that assumes there is a room to be found.

Your rental car company overbooks? Too bad, you get a big, fat goose egg.

You are talking about booked stuff. The flight tickets wasnt just booked, it was fully paid for.

In both of the cases I listed it doesn't make any difference if it's paid for. If it's prepaid and you don't get the item you get your money back.

- - - Updated - - -

The police didn't beat Dao up. He got hurt trying to break away from the police. The force was entirely his own.

You made that up.

Seriously, Loren. You made that up and then convinced yourself it really happened because you found it so believable.

You're listening to the hype. The cops pulled him out of his seat, he started flailing around. He got hurt from his flailing.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

The cops pulled him out of his seat, ...

Full stop. First, it should have never went there but the airline was greedy and wanted to set an artificial limit on exchange of seats for money and was willing to use force to keep to that limit. Second, pulling someone out of their seat is violence. Flailing when you are being abused, also screaming, swearing, and/or acting out verbally like a douche is a completely normal reaction to such abuse.

 

[LordKiran]

You are talking about booked stuff. The flight tickets wasnt just booked, it was fully paid for.

In both of the cases I listed it doesn't make any difference if it's paid for. If it's prepaid and you don't get the item you get your money back.

Does a salesman get to null an already complete transaction? If a car lot sells you a car that was actually reserved and already purchased, do they then get to come and take your car and enforce a new transaction upon you wherein you lose your car for the money you paid for it?

There's a difference between nulling an incomplete transaction and trying to retroactively null a completed one.

 

[laughing dog]

The only person that beat the shit out of Dao was Dao.

- - - Updated - - -

Except it wasn't United who beat the passenger up, it was whom they thought were police. Most people when seeing security in that situation would have left peacefully too. And he got lucky, or unlucky since he was flirting with trespassing on at an airport.

The police didn't beat Dao up. He got hurt trying to break away from the police. The force was entirely his own.

Apparently up is down in your world. And those "police" lost their jobs, which strongly suggests their employer disagrees with your assessment.

The lengths that alleged "liberatarians" will go to justify this violence is absurd.

 

[fast]

The only person that beat the shit out of Dao was Dao.

- - - Updated - - -



The police didn't beat Dao up. He got hurt trying to break away from the police. The force was entirely his own.

Apparently up is down in your world. And those "police" lost their jobs, which strongly suggests their employer disagrees with your assessment.

The lengths that alleged "liberatarians" will go to justify this violence is absurd.

Saying they lost their job is one thing, but in the world we live in, it's more probable the employer while not disagreeing acquiesced to public pressure.

 

[Arctish]

Saying they lost their job is one thing, but in the world we live in, it's more probable the employer while not disagreeing acquiesced to public pressure.

Perhaps.

But it's most probable the employer fired one for exceeding his authority and committing a flagrant assault, and the other for attempting to cover it up.

 

[laughing dog]

Apparently up is down in your world. And those "police" lost their jobs, which strongly suggests their employer disagrees with your assessment.

The lengths that alleged "liberatarians" will go to justify this violence is absurd.

Saying they lost their job is one thing, but in the world we live in, it's more probable the employer while not disagreeing acquiesced to public pressure.

"More probable" as in you have actual evidence or "more probable" as in "that is my opinion"?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Saying they lost their job is one thing, but in the world we live in, it's more probable the employer while not disagreeing acquiesced to public pressure.

Perhaps.

But it's most probable the employer fired one for exceeding his authority and committing a flagrant assault, and the other for attempting to cover it up.

Cover up? What are you talking about?

The officers got fired for embarrassing the boss. That's usually a firing offense even if you did nothing wrong.

 

[Arctish]

Perhaps.

But it's most probable the employer fired one for exceeding his authority and committing a flagrant assault, and the other for attempting to cover it up.

Cover up? What are you talking about?

I'm talking about the information contained in the update I posted a few days ago:

***UPDATE***

Two of the airport security team involved in the incident with Dr. Dao have been fired, and two others have been suspended:

The Chicago Department of Aviation has fired two of its officers involved in April’s widely publicized dragging of a passenger at O’Hare International Airport, according to the city’s top watchdog.

The dragging, captured on video by another passenger and spread on social media worldwide, involved Dr. David Dao, who declined to leave a United flight to make way for traveling crew members. Dao was forcibly dragged from the flight by aviation security officers, resulting in a concussion, a broken nose and the loss of two teeth. The incident prompted a lawsuit and settlement by United, as well as changes in company procedures.


An investigation by the city’s Office of Inspector General found that three aviation security officers and one aviation security sergeant “mishandled” the situation, according to the office’s third-quarter report, released Tuesday. The investigation also found that employees had made misleading statements and “deliberately removed material facts from their reports.”

Acting on the inspector general’s findings and recommendations, the Aviation Department fired the officer who “improperly escalated the incident” and the sergeant who was involved in removing facts from an employee report, the inspector general’s office said. The other officers were suspended.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-aviation-cops-fired-20171017-story.html

If for some reason you didn't trust the Chicago Tribune to accurately paraphrase the Office of the Inspector General's report, you could have gone to the OIG's webpage and read the summary yourself. It begins with this:

The City of Chicago Office of Inspector General (OIG) has transmitted its third quarter report for 2017 to the City Council and City officials. The report summarizes the Office’s activity from July 1 through September 30, 2017.

Also in this quarter’s report are summaries of concluded OIG investigations, inquiries, and activities, including:

• An OIG investigation established that three Chicago Department of Aviation (CDA) Aviation Security Officers (ASOs) and one Aviation Security Sergeant mishandled a non-threatening situation that resulted in a physically violent and forceful removal of a passenger aboard United Airlines Flight 3411. The use of excessive force caused the passenger to hit his face on an armrest, resulting in a concussion, a broken nose, and the loss of two teeth. The investigation also uncovered that the employees made misleading statements and deliberately removed material facts from their reports. Acting on OIG’s findings and recommendations, CDA terminated the ASO who improperly escalated the incident and the Sergeant involved in the deliberate removal of facts from an employee report. CDA suspended the other two ASOs involved in the incident and its aftermath. CDA also confirmed that a review of its policies and procedures was underway and stated it would be complete by the first quarter of 2018.

<emphasis added so you can find it more easily>

Or you can go find the report and read the whole thing.

Either way, you'll have an answer to your question.

The officers got fired for embarrassing the boss. That's usually a firing offense even if you did nothing wrong.

I'm sure they did embarrass their boss. They also embarrassed themselves and their whole department. But that's not what got them fired.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm sure they did embarrass their boss. They also embarrassed themselves and their whole department. But that's not what got them fired.

I think it's much more likely they're just being thrown under the bus.