Did United Airlines have any other choice than to eject that passenger?

[bilby]

I'm sure they did embarrass their boss. They also embarrassed themselves and their whole department. But that's not what got them fired.

I think it's much more likely they're just being thrown under the bus.

Why would anyone else care what you think, rather than accept what's in the report? Do you have some source of inside knowledge, or are you just making shit up that complies with your biases and preconceptions?

And it's a plane, not a bus.

 

[fast]

I think it's much more likely they're just being thrown under the bus.

Why would anyone else care what you think, rather than accept what's in the report? Do you have some source of inside knowledge, or are you just making shit up that complies with your biases and preconceptions?

And it's a plane, not a bus.

Biases and preconceptions have often been shown wrong, so they have to be taken with a grain of salt, but testimonial evidence have an even worse track record. A guess based on biases and preconceptions is bad enough, but compared to out right declarations, well, that doesn't mean our biases and preconceptions are right, but dang, aren't they at least worthy of being less wrong than outright overt statements made by humans?

 

[fromderinside]

And it's a plane, not a bus.

OK. So they got thrown under the fuselage of the plane. Happy? sheesh!

 

[coloradoatheist]

I think it's much more likely they're just being thrown under the bus.

Why would anyone else care what you think, rather than accept what's in the report? Do you have some source of inside knowledge, or are you just making shit up that complies with your biases and preconceptions?

And it's a plane, not a bus.

The issue is that when you do fire someone there is times where you have to put a lot of things in it, and then find things that are fireable. So we'll never know for sure either way unless we were part of the discussions.

 

[KeepTalking]

Except it wasn't United who beat the passenger up, it was whom they thought were police. Most people when seeing security in that situation would have left peacefully too. And he got lucky, or unlucky since he was flirting with trespassing on at an airport.

The police didn't beat Dao up. He got hurt trying to break away from the police. The force was entirely his own.

"You honor, I did not throw that man from the 14th floor balcony. I was merely dangling him by the ankles over the banister so that he could enjoy the view. He fell to the pavement and died trying to break away from me. The force was entirely his own."

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

the lengths you guys will go to with faith-based apologetics...to retain your ideologies and core concepts in the face of multiple events of evidence is astounding. it's religious-like in its practices of rejection of reasonable inferences and dangerous at its irrational conclusions on behalf of authority and wanna-be cops. throw off your abusive paradigm and be free to think.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

"You honor, I did not throw that man from the 14th floor balcony. I was merely dangling him by the ankles over the banister so that he could enjoy the view. He fell to the pavement and died trying to break away from me. The force was entirely his own."

Indeed! or its close-by grade school bully cousin: "Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."

 

[coloradoatheist]

the lengths you guys will go to with faith-based apologetics...to retain your ideologies and core concepts in the face of multiple events of evidence is astounding. it's religious-like in its practices of rejection of reasonable inferences and dangerous at its irrational conclusions on behalf of authority and wanna-be cops. throw off your abusive paradigm and be free to think.

Yes and no. When United called security and said we have somebody who is no longer a ticketed passenger on our flight, can you please come help us. It is up to the security group to know their protocols on what needs to be done, not United. And as I said, at the point where he would not come, they needed to deplane everyone called Chicago Police and let them handle it.

- - - Updated - - -

The police didn't beat Dao up. He got hurt trying to break away from the police. The force was entirely his own.

"You honor, I did not throw that man from the 14th floor balcony. I was merely dangling him by the ankles over the banister so that he could enjoy the view. He fell to the pavement and died trying to break away from me. The force was entirely his own."

Yes and no too. Disregarding for now whether they could arrest him, the police can use force to arrest someone that is resisting arrest. So it depends on what they police would normally use in the situation and what options they have in a confined space for someone resisting arrest.

 

[laughing dog]

Why would anyone else care what you think, rather than accept what's in the report? Do you have some source of inside knowledge, or are you just making shit up that complies with your biases and preconceptions?

And it's a plane, not a bus.

The issue is that when you do fire someone there is times where you have to put a lot of things in it, and then find things that are fireable. So we'll never know for sure either way unless we were part of the discussions.

Using that reasoning, one can always dismiss anything that one did not personally witness.

And, of course, none of this addresses the real issue - that this could have easily been avoided if UA had a policy of upping the inducement until someone voluntarily gave up his or her seat.

 

[coloradoatheist]

The issue is that when you do fire someone there is times where you have to put a lot of things in it, and then find things that are fireable. So we'll never know for sure either way unless we were part of the discussions.

Using that reasoning, one can always dismiss anything that one did not personally witness.

And, of course, none of this addresses the real issue - that this could have easily been avoided if UA had a policy of upping the inducement until someone voluntarily gave up his or her seat.

The same with they could have bumped the four of them earlier instead of trying to be nice.

 

[laughing dog]

Using that reasoning, one can always dismiss anything that one did not personally witness.

And, of course, none of this addresses the real issue - that this could have easily been avoided if UA had a policy of upping the inducement until someone voluntarily gave up his or her seat.

The same with they could have bumped the four of them earlier instead of trying to be nice.

"Trying to be nice"? First, since you did not witness the event, you cannot judge whether anyone was "trying to be nice". Second, it is called maintaining good customer relations.

And I fail to see how this situation was the result of anyone "trying to be nice" unless by "nice" you mean "nasty and stupid".

 

[coloradoatheist]

The same with they could have bumped the four of them earlier instead of trying to be nice.

"Trying to be nice"? First, since you did not witness the event, you cannot judge whether anyone was "trying to be nice". Second, it is called maintaining good customer relations.

And I fail to see how this situation was the result of anyone "trying to be nice" unless by "nice" you mean "nasty and stupid".

Beginning boarding and loading things so people can get out on time is being nice compared to delaying everyone from onboarding based on the assumption people would play nice if they did get chosen. He could have gotten bumped earlier

 

[KeepTalking]

Yes and no. When United called security and said we have somebody who is no longer a ticketed passenger on our flight, can you please come help us. It is up to the security group to know their protocols on what needs to be done, not United. And as I said, at the point where he would not come, they needed to deplane everyone called Chicago Police and let them handle it.

- - - Updated - - -

The police didn't beat Dao up. He got hurt trying to break away from the police. The force was entirely his own.

"You honor, I did not throw that man from the 14th floor balcony. I was merely dangling him by the ankles over the banister so that he could enjoy the view. He fell to the pavement and died trying to break away from me. The force was entirely his own."

Yes and no too. Disregarding for now whether they could arrest him, the police can use force to arrest someone that is resisting arrest. So it depends on what they police would normally use in the situation and what options they have in a confined space for someone resisting arrest.

Are we also disregarding for now that they weren't the Police? Because they weren't the Police. But sure, let's just disregard the facts that are inconvenient to our narrative, so that we can arrive at a nice, authoritarian position that allows us to mete out violence in furtherance of profit. Or not.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Yes and no. When United called security and said we have somebody who is no longer a ticketed passenger on our flight, can you please come help us. It is up to the security group to know their protocols on what needs to be done, not United. And as I said, at the point where he would not come, they needed to deplane everyone called Chicago Police and let them handle it.

- - - Updated - - -

The police didn't beat Dao up. He got hurt trying to break away from the police. The force was entirely his own.

"You honor, I did not throw that man from the 14th floor balcony. I was merely dangling him by the ankles over the banister so that he could enjoy the view. He fell to the pavement and died trying to break away from me. The force was entirely his own."

Yes and no too. Disregarding for now whether they could arrest him, the police can use force to arrest someone that is resisting arrest. So it depends on what they police would normally use in the situation and what options they have in a confined space for someone resisting arrest.

Are we also disregarding for now that they weren't the Police? Because they weren't the Police. But sure, let's just disregard the facts that are inconvenient to our narrative, so that we can arrive at a nice, authoritarian position that allows us to mete out violence in furtherance of profit. Or not.

If they are not the police it is their responsibility to tell that to United so United can tell them whether or not to call the police. That's the same thing like bars using a security firm for bouncers or a mall that use security. If they aren't supposed to arrest someone then the security firm screewed up. However this group was a quasi police group but if they couldn't do it, they should say so on the spot.

For the other issue. The Dr became a person no longer allowed to be on someone else's property and it is the job of a police force to remove a person that is no longer welcome one someone else's property.

 

[KeepTalking]

Yes and no. When United called security and said we have somebody who is no longer a ticketed passenger on our flight, can you please come help us. It is up to the security group to know their protocols on what needs to be done, not United. And as I said, at the point where he would not come, they needed to deplane everyone called Chicago Police and let them handle it.

- - - Updated - - -

The police didn't beat Dao up. He got hurt trying to break away from the police. The force was entirely his own.

"You honor, I did not throw that man from the 14th floor balcony. I was merely dangling him by the ankles over the banister so that he could enjoy the view. He fell to the pavement and died trying to break away from me. The force was entirely his own."

Yes and no too. Disregarding for now whether they could arrest him, the police can use force to arrest someone that is resisting arrest. So it depends on what they police would normally use in the situation and what options they have in a confined space for someone resisting arrest.

Are we also disregarding for now that they weren't the Police? Because they weren't the Police. But sure, let's just disregard the facts that are inconvenient to our narrative, so that we can arrive at a nice, authoritarian position that allows us to mete out violence in furtherance of profit. Or not.

If they are not the police

There is no "if". They are not police, and were told to stop wearing jackets that identified them as police prior to this incident.

So, let's stop disregarding the facts, shall we? That should help to clear up any misconceptions as to which party was legally and ethically in the right.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

The Dr became a person no longer allowed to be on someone else's property and it is the job of a police force to remove a person that is no longer welcome one someone else's property.

It is not the job of police to resolve civil disputes or enforce artificial qualifications to said disputes after a deal has been made through contract. So, for example, if you are at a tag sale on someone's lawn and they sell you a lamp for $10, you get a receipt, and the lamp, they cannot then sell it to their neighbor for $40 and promise to give you $20 compensation, calling the police to violently enforce their involuntary changing of contract terms. Their telling you to get off their property and taking the lamp and receipt is theft unless they have your voluntary, un-coerced agreement to renegotiation/re-bartering.

In the case of an airline seat, you have rented that property (the seat) to be transported to said destination. Their taking of the seat is theft just like in the example above. If you were renting an apartment and the landlord kicked you out after you had paid rent for the month, saying he got a better offer from someone else, he still cannot throw you out in the cold. You rented his property through contractual agreement and did nothing to violate that contract.

ETA: This works both ways. You can't give the lamp back and force the original owner to sell it to you for $5 instead while calling the police on the original owner because they are in possession of your lamp you handed them. Likewise, you can't take your money back from your landlord and tell him to give it to you at half price.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Yes and no. When United called security and said we have somebody who is no longer a ticketed passenger on our flight, can you please come help us. It is up to the security group to know their protocols on what needs to be done, not United. And as I said, at the point where he would not come, they needed to deplane everyone called Chicago Police and let them handle it.

- - - Updated - - -

The police didn't beat Dao up. He got hurt trying to break away from the police. The force was entirely his own.

"You honor, I did not throw that man from the 14th floor balcony. I was merely dangling him by the ankles over the banister so that he could enjoy the view. He fell to the pavement and died trying to break away from me. The force was entirely his own."

Yes and no too. Disregarding for now whether they could arrest him, the police can use force to arrest someone that is resisting arrest. So it depends on what they police would normally use in the situation and what options they have in a confined space for someone resisting arrest.

Are we also disregarding for now that they weren't the Police? Because they weren't the Police. But sure, let's just disregard the facts that are inconvenient to our narrative, so that we can arrive at a nice, authoritarian position that allows us to mete out violence in furtherance of profit. Or not.

If they are not the police

There is no "if". They are not police, and were told to stop wearing jackets that identified them as police prior to this incident.

So, let's stop disregarding the facts, shall we? That should help to clear up any misconceptions as to which party was legally and ethically in the right.

Not quite. It shows that the security group was in the wrong, not United. If security was there just to see if he would come quietly and he doesn't so they have to call the police, that's the security firms job to know. The same way a security firm is trying to remove a drunk person from a bar.

 

[coloradoatheist]

The Dr became a person no longer allowed to be on someone else's property and it is the job of a police force to remove a person that is no longer welcome one someone else's property.

It is not the job of police to resolve civil disputes or enforce artificial qualifications to said disputes after a deal has been made through contract. So, for example, if you are at a tag sale on someone's lawn and they sell you a lamp for $10, you get a receipt, and the lamp, they cannot then sell it to their neighbor for $40 and promise to give you $20 compensation, calling the police to violently enforce their involuntary changing of contract terms. Their telling you to get off their property and taking the lamp and receipt is theft unless they have your voluntary, un-coerced agreement to renegotiation/re-bartering.

In the case of an airline seat, you have rented that property (the seat) to be transported to said destination. Their taking of the seat is theft just like in the example above. If you were renting an apartment and the landlord kicked you out after you had paid rent for the month, saying he got a better offer from someone else, he still cannot throw you out in the cold. You rented his property through contractual agreement and did nothing to violate that contract.

There aren't resolving the civil dispute, the DR had means to do that. They are settling a property dispute which is different law. He was on somebody's property who told them to leave. They remove him from the property and then he could sue for breach of contract, but he was on somebody else's property.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

It is not the job of police to resolve civil disputes or enforce artificial qualifications to said disputes after a deal has been made through contract. So, for example, if you are at a tag sale on someone's lawn and they sell you a lamp for $10, you get a receipt, and the lamp, they cannot then sell it to their neighbor for $40 and promise to give you $20 compensation, calling the police to violently enforce their involuntary changing of contract terms. Their telling you to get off their property and taking the lamp and receipt is theft unless they have your voluntary, un-coerced agreement to renegotiation/re-bartering.

In the case of an airline seat, you have rented that property (the seat) to be transported to said destination. Their taking of the seat is theft just like in the example above. If you were renting an apartment and the landlord kicked you out after you had paid rent for the month, saying he got a better offer from someone else, he still cannot throw you out in the cold. You rented his property through contractual agreement and did nothing to violate that contract.

There aren't resolving the civil dispute, the DR had means to do that. They are settling a property dispute which is different law. He was on somebody's property who told them to leave. They remove him from the property and then he could sue for breach of contract, but he was on somebody else's property.

He was renting the property. That is what you do when you are transported. It's a type of rent. You have collective rights of the space, allocated space for luggage, collective rights to the bathroom, and private use of the seat and space under it during the transport from A to B.

 

[KeepTalking]

Yes and no. When United called security and said we have somebody who is no longer a ticketed passenger on our flight, can you please come help us. It is up to the security group to know their protocols on what needs to be done, not United. And as I said, at the point where he would not come, they needed to deplane everyone called Chicago Police and let them handle it.

- - - Updated - - -

The police didn't beat Dao up. He got hurt trying to break away from the police. The force was entirely his own.

"You honor, I did not throw that man from the 14th floor balcony. I was merely dangling him by the ankles over the banister so that he could enjoy the view. He fell to the pavement and died trying to break away from me. The force was entirely his own."

Yes and no too. Disregarding for now whether they could arrest him, the police can use force to arrest someone that is resisting arrest. So it depends on what they police would normally use in the situation and what options they have in a confined space for someone resisting arrest.

Are we also disregarding for now that they weren't the Police? Because they weren't the Police. But sure, let's just disregard the facts that are inconvenient to our narrative, so that we can arrive at a nice, authoritarian position that allows us to mete out violence in furtherance of profit. Or not.

If they are not the police

There is no "if". They are not police, and were told to stop wearing jackets that identified them as police prior to this incident.

So, let's stop disregarding the facts, shall we? That should help to clear up any misconceptions as to which party was legally and ethically in the right.

Not quite. It shows that the security group was in the wrong, not United. If security was there just to see if he would come quietly and he doesn't so they have to call the police, that's the security firms job to know. The same way a security firm is trying to remove a drunk person from a bar.

While security was definitely in the wrong from a legal standpoint, there is also the ethical question to consider. It seems that most are in agreement that United was in the wrong ethically, and United even seems to agree with this, given the statements and policy changes they made subsequent to this incident.