Did United Airlines have any other choice than to eject that passenger?

[Malintent]

When an authority ...

Police are not your authority, the laws of the land are--to include the Constitution and its amendments, i.e., Bill of Rights. And the Bill of Rights comes from experience with tyrants and principles of fairness. If the police tell you to do something unlawful or unconstitutionally order you to do something, you don't have to listen to them. They, not you, will get in trouble later for their unlawful attempts to be an illegitimate authority. So, for example, if police break into your home and tell you to give them all your jewelry, you can shoot them or not listen or whatever is wisest for you to do to survive. If they tell you to leave because they are going to beat the crap out of someone, you ought to call the police on them, record it, and stand in their way unless they are going to kill you. If they try to unlawfully remove your rented property, you can record it and refuse. The uniform doesn't mean authority, but instead an agent of the executive branch of local government to do lawful things. Everyone involved in any dispute--including police--will be judged on the scene by observers and later by judges.

FAKE NEWS!!!! I mean, accidental misquote... I didn't say that, fast did. I made fun of him for it... quote tags got ya.

I agree with this post.. government entities aren't authority figures... they are servants of the authoritative, documented laws.

Someone tells me to move my ass in a manner that does not belay a sense of urgent personal protection (look out for the oncoming car!), then I might have a few questions first.

 

[fast]

When an authority ...

Police are not your authority, the laws of the land are--to include the Constitution and its amendments, i.e., Bill of Rights. And the Bill of Rights comes from experience with tyrants and principles of fairness. If the police tell you to do something unlawful or unconstitutionally order you to do something, you don't have to listen to them. They, not you, will get in trouble later for their unlawful attempts to be an illegitimate authority. So, for example, if police break into your home and tell you to give them all your jewelry, you can shoot them or not listen or whatever is wisest for you to do to survive. If they tell you to leave because they are going to beat the crap out of someone, you ought to call the police on them, record it, and stand in their way unless they are going to kill you. If they try to unlawfully remove your rented property, you can record it and refuse. The uniform doesn't mean authority, but instead an agent of the executive branch of local government to do lawful things. Everyone involved in any dispute--including police--will be judged on the scene by observers and later by judges.

That makes sense. Painful pill to swallow, but it makes sense.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Police are not your authority, the laws of the land are--to include the Constitution and its amendments, i.e., Bill of Rights. And the Bill of Rights comes from experience with tyrants and principles of fairness. If the police tell you to do something unlawful or unconstitutionally order you to do something, you don't have to listen to them. They, not you, will get in trouble later for their unlawful attempts to be an illegitimate authority. So, for example, if police break into your home and tell you to give them all your jewelry, you can shoot them or not listen or whatever is wisest for you to do to survive. If they tell you to leave because they are going to beat the crap out of someone, you ought to call the police on them, record it, and stand in their way unless they are going to kill you. If they try to unlawfully remove your rented property, you can record it and refuse. The uniform doesn't mean authority, but instead an agent of the executive branch of local government to do lawful things. Everyone involved in any dispute--including police--will be judged on the scene by observers and later by judges.

FAKE NEWS!!!! I mean, accidental misquote... I didn't say that, fast did. I made fun of him for it... quote tags got ya.

I agree with this post.. government entities aren't authority figures... they are servants of the authoritative, documented laws.

Someone tells me to move my ass in a manner that does not belay a sense of urgent personal protection (look out for the oncoming car!), then I might have a few questions first.

Sorry, I knew fast said it. I am not sure how I misattributed that.

 

[bilby]

It is exactly like what happened. If you are holding someone, against their will, over something that might cause them injury, and they subsequently fall on that thing and injure themselves in an attempt to get away from you, then you are the one at fault for putting them in that position.

When an authority tells you to move your ass, you're supposed to move your ass, even when you have the right to keep your ass where your ass is, and if you don't, they should have the right to hand you your ass. Later, if you feel your rights were unlawfully taken from you, you can march your ass to the appropriate authorities where they can hand out some ass whooping to where they rightfully belong. If you don't respect authority, you're going down. question their right to push you about. If you don't, then you are always going to be the victim of their bullying.

FTFY.

 

[fast]

When an authority tells you to move your ass, you're supposed to move your ass, even when you have the right to keep your ass where your ass is, and if you don't, they should have the right to hand you your ass. Later, if you feel your rights were unlawfully taken from you, you can march your ass to the appropriate authorities where they can hand out some ass whooping to where they rightfully belong. If you don't respect authority, you're going down. question their right to push you about. If you don't, then you are always going to be the victim of their bullying.

FTFY.

Sounds like a good fix. I'd have to be careful though. This isn't a situation where he went looking for trouble; it's a situation where trouble came to him.

 

[coloradoatheist]

FTFY.

Sounds like a good fix. I'd have to be careful though. This isn't a situation where he went looking for trouble; it's a situation where trouble came to him.

Of course you can fight the authorities, but you better make 100% sure you are in the right otherwise you could be in court facing several counts of trespassing, resisting arrest, and other charges that they could bring. If he had gotten probation for his actions or even jail time would it have been worth it?


And for LordKrains post early, can you tell me the legal definition of a lease compared to a license?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If you have sold something, you can't recover it from, or refuse to provide it to, the buyer, other than via mutually agreed compensation.

Reality: We are talking goods that have a time attached--and the legal system recognizes that businesses will sometimes be unable to deliver the agreed-upon goods/services and in the cases where it's more of a burden they have defined schemes to reduce the harm. Otherwise, too bad, you get offered the good at another time or else your money back.

- - - Updated - - -

"Your honor, I did not throw that man from the 14th floor balcony. I was merely trying to drag him away from the edge and he pulled free of me, inertia did the rest."

"Why were you trying to drag him away from the balcony?"

"I rented it to him for $50.00 so he could take pictures of the eclipse before I knew I could get twenty times as much from another photographer, so I told him to move and he didn't. He called his lawyer and was asking if he had a right to stay there as per our initial agreement but I wanted him to go so I grabbed him and started dragging him. It's his fault he died because resisting being dragged is the same thing as wanting to have your face bashed in."

Other than the dragging this isn't a hypothetical.

Plenty of people that had booked hotel rooms far out lost them.

- - - Updated - - -

It is exactly like what happened. If you are holding someone, against their will, over something that might cause them injury, and they subsequently fall on that thing and injure themselves in an attempt to get away from you, then you are the one at fault for putting them in that position.

When an authority tells you to move your ass, you're supposed to move your ass, even when you have the right to keep your ass where your ass is, and if you don't, they should have the right to hand you your ass. Later, if you feel your rights were unlawfully taken from you, you can march your ass to the appropriate authorities where they can hand out some ass whooping to where they rightfully belong. If you don't respect authority, you're going down.

Yup. In the US at least the law generally says you obey the cop even if you're in the right. Settle it in court, not with force.

 

[Arctish]

"Your honor, I did not throw that man from the 14th floor balcony. I was merely trying to drag him away from the edge and he pulled free of me, inertia did the rest."

"Why were you trying to drag him away from the balcony?"

"I rented it to him for $50.00 so he could take pictures of the eclipse before I knew I could get twenty times as much from another photographer, so I told him to move and he didn't. He called his lawyer and was asking if he had a right to stay there as per our initial agreement but I wanted him to go so I grabbed him and started dragging him. It's his fault he died because resisting being dragged is the same thing as wanting to have your face bashed in."

Other than the dragging this isn't a hypothetical.

Plenty of people that had booked hotel rooms far out lost them.

Not after they had already checked in and took up occupancy in their pre-paid rooms, and not by way of being assaulted, battered, and dragged outside by hotel security while they were on the phone getting legal advice from their lawyers.

 

[coloradoatheist]

"Your honor, I did not throw that man from the 14th floor balcony. I was merely trying to drag him away from the edge and he pulled free of me, inertia did the rest."

"Why were you trying to drag him away from the balcony?"

"I rented it to him for $50.00 so he could take pictures of the eclipse before I knew I could get twenty times as much from another photographer, so I told him to move and he didn't. He called his lawyer and was asking if he had a right to stay there as per our initial agreement but I wanted him to go so I grabbed him and started dragging him. It's his fault he died because resisting being dragged is the same thing as wanting to have your face bashed in."

Other than the dragging this isn't a hypothetical.

Plenty of people that had booked hotel rooms far out lost them.

Not after they had already checked in and took up occupancy in their pre-paid rooms, and not by way of being assaulted, battered, and dragged outside by hotel security while they were on the phone getting legal advice from their lawyers.

The police don't have to wait until for you to talk to your lawyer and have him spend hours researching the issue to give legal advice. And cops are pretty use to people threatening that they are going to call their lawyers.

 

[LordKiran]

Sounds like a good fix. I'd have to be careful though. This isn't a situation where he went looking for trouble; it's a situation where trouble came to him.

Of course you can fight the authorities, but you better make 100% sure you are in the right otherwise you could be in court facing several counts of trespassing, resisting arrest, and other charges that they could bring. If he had gotten probation for his actions or even jail time would it have been worth it?


And for LordKrains post early, can you tell me the legal definition of a lease compared to a license?

I don't see why it matters. The man paid for his ticket and was in his seat at the appointed time. Transaction complete.

You pay for the seat, not the flight.

 

[LordKiran]

Reality: We are talking goods that have a time attached--and the legal system recognizes that businesses will sometimes be unable to deliver the agreed-upon goods/services and in the cases where it's more of a burden they have defined schemes to reduce the harm. Otherwise, too bad, you get offered the good at another time or else your money back.[1]

- - - Updated - - -

"Your honor, I did not throw that man from the 14th floor balcony. I was merely trying to drag him away from the edge and he pulled free of me, inertia did the rest."

"Why were you trying to drag him away from the balcony?"

"I rented it to him for $50.00 so he could take pictures of the eclipse before I knew I could get twenty times as much from another photographer, so I told him to move and he didn't. He called his lawyer and was asking if he had a right to stay there as per our initial agreement but I wanted him to go so I grabbed him and started dragging him. It's his fault he died because resisting being dragged is the same thing as wanting to have your face bashed in."

Other than the dragging this isn't a hypothetical.

Plenty of people that had booked hotel rooms far out lost them.[2]

- - - Updated - - -

It is exactly like what happened. If you are holding someone, against their will, over something that might cause them injury, and they subsequently fall on that thing and injure themselves in an attempt to get away from you, then you are the one at fault for putting them in that position.

When an authority tells you to move your ass, you're supposed to move your ass, even when you have the right to keep your ass where your ass is, and if you don't, they should have the right to hand you your ass. Later, if you feel your rights were unlawfully taken from you, you can march your ass to the appropriate authorities where they can hand out some ass whooping to where they rightfully belong. If you don't respect authority, you're going down.

Yup. In the US at least the law generally says you obey the cop even if you're in the right. Settle it in court, not with force.

1. Retroactively? This is established legal precedent? Citation needed.

2. Retroactively? This is established legal precedent? Citation needed.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Of course you can fight the authorities, but you better make 100% sure you are in the right otherwise you could be in court facing several counts of trespassing, resisting arrest, and other charges that they could bring. If he had gotten probation for his actions or even jail time would it have been worth it?


And for LordKrains post early, can you tell me the legal definition of a lease compared to a license?

I don't see why it matters. The man paid for his ticket and was in his seat at the appointed time. Transaction complete.

You pay for the seat, not the flight.

Because there are legal distinctions between a lease, which you are trying to argue was the case for the seat, and a license. A license can be removed at any time and if the seat was a license, once it was removed the airline he was no longer allowed to be on the plane.

 

[LordKiran]

I don't see why it matters. The man paid for his ticket and was in his seat at the appointed time. Transaction complete.

You pay for the seat, not the flight.

Because there are legal distinctions between a lease, which you are trying to argue was the case for the seat, and a license. A license can be removed at any time and if the seat was a license, once it was removed the airline he was no longer allowed to be on the plane.

I think you'd have a hard time arguing that seats are 'licensed' Licencing is typically reserved for abstract privileges, ie Intellectual property and the permission to utilize it in one fashion or another.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Because there are legal distinctions between a lease, which you are trying to argue was the case for the seat, and a license. A license can be removed at any time and if the seat was a license, once it was removed the airline he was no longer allowed to be on the plane.

I think you'd have a hard time arguing that seats are 'licensed' Licencing is typically reserved for abstract privileges, ie Intellectual property and the permission to utilize it in one fashion or another.

Nope it's the opposite. It would be a hard sell to say that the seat is a lease when it's really a license. A license applies to property too, even though we think of it more for intellectual property.

For example, this one talks about a stadium ticket being a license too.

http://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/2015/03/what-is-the-difference-between-a-lease-and-a-license.html

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Of course you can fight the authorities, but you better make 100% sure you are in the right otherwise you could be in court facing several counts of trespassing, resisting arrest, and other charges that they could bring. If he had gotten probation for his actions or even jail time would it have been worth it?


And for LordKrains post early, can you tell me the legal definition of a lease compared to a license?

I don't see why it matters. The man paid for his ticket and was in his seat at the appointed time. Transaction complete.

You pay for the seat, not the flight.

Bass-ackwards. You pay for the flight, not the seat. Seats are never guaranteed.

 

[LordKiran]

I don't see why it matters. The man paid for his ticket and was in his seat at the appointed time. Transaction complete.

You pay for the seat, not the flight.

Bass-ackwards. You pay for the flight, not the seat. Seats are never guaranteed.

And yet they're predetermined and at different price points. Wouldn't be the case if the seats weren't whats for sale. After all a seat is a seat if the flight is what's sold, so it shouldn't particularly matter where you sit (barring children flying alone or the disabled.)

Think of it this way: You buying your ticket isn't what determines were the plane flies. It goes where it goes regardless, because you're not buying the flight, you're buying occupancy on a plane going somewhere you need to be.

 

[LordKiran]

I think you'd have a hard time arguing that seats are 'licensed' Licencing is typically reserved for abstract privileges, ie Intellectual property and the permission to utilize it in one fashion or another.

Nope it's the opposite. It would be a hard sell to say that the seat is a lease when it's really a license. A license applies to property too, even though we think of it more for intellectual property.

For example, this one talks about a stadium ticket being a license too.

http://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/2015/03/what-is-the-difference-between-a-lease-and-a-license.html

What are you basing this on if I may ask?

 

[bilby]

Nope it's the opposite. It would be a hard sell to say that the seat is a lease when it's really a license. A license applies to property too, even though we think of it more for intellectual property.

For example, this one talks about a stadium ticket being a license too.

http://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/2015/03/what-is-the-difference-between-a-lease-and-a-license.html

What are you basing this on if I may ask?

"Once something has been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral." - Rev. Lovejoy, The Simpsons $pringfield (Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Legalized Gambling) 1993

 

[LordKiran]

What are you basing this on if I may ask?

"Once something has been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral." - Rev. Lovejoy, The Simpsons $pringfield (Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Legalized Gambling) 1993

Well yeah, even if it is true that's still incredibly shitty. What if you're in a dire situation to see your dying mother and the airline decides to hold you up because it gave your seat away? You can't compensate people for shit like that because shit like that is literally priceless.

 

[bilby]

"Once something has been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral." - Rev. Lovejoy, The Simpsons $pringfield (Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Legalized Gambling) 1993

Well yeah, even if it is true that's still incredibly shitty. What if you're in a dire situation to see your dying mother and the airline decides to hold you up because it gave your seat away? You can't compensate people for shit like that because shit like that is literally priceless.

Yup. And likely there are several people on the same flight who are not too bothered if they get there today or tomorrow, as long as they get there, and as long as they are not out of pocket as a result; So if the airline simply offers compensation in ever increasing amounts until they have enough takers, nobody suffers - the people who take the offer do so because it reached a level where they preferred the compensation over a punctual arrival, and anyone with very strong reasons for wanting to fly right now gets to do so.

Arbitrarily bumping passengers gets an overall sub-optimal outcome for everyone. It is both stupid and unnecessarily cruel, whether it is lawful or not.