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Discrimination -- the reality

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I tend not to know the race or sex of other people applying for roles I have applied for.
Then how can you declare you've never experienced a benefit from being a white male.
Because I've been on the other side of the hiring process, in the same institutions I applied at.
But you weren't there when you were first hired.
No, and therefore equally I might have experienced disadvantage due to my whiteness and maleness.
You got hired. Someone else didn't. You've admitted you know nothing about other applicants. Yet you continue to make hard proclamations about what you cannot possibly know.
No, that's Rhea.

When I was first hired, I actually did know about other applicants, because we had a group stage assessment. While I don't know for sure if my race and sex counted against me, I suspect they did, given what I know and have seen about the public service since.
 
When I was first hired, I actually did know about other applicants, because we had a group stage assessment. While I don't know for sure if my race and sex counted against me, I suspect they did, given what I know and have seen about the public service since.
You suspect your race and sex counted against you yet you got the job. But you cannot accept that race and sex counted against those that didn't get the job.
 
When I was first hired, I actually did know about other applicants, because we had a group stage assessment. While I don't know for sure if my race and sex counted against me, I suspect they did, given what I know and have seen about the public service since.
You suspect your race and sex counted against you yet you got the job. But you cannot accept that race and sex counted against those that didn't get the job.
Well duh, it's not racism if it happens to non-whites. Only whites can be victims of racism, because only whites presume everything of value is owed to them in the first place.
 
The system that causes systemic discrimination against white, mostly european men is not the same system that causes systemic discrimination against minorities and women. Call the one system the e-system (the european male discrimination system), and call the other the mw-system (the minority/women discrimination system) for the sake of this point.



The mw-system has been in place for a very long time. It afffects a very large number of people of all ages and abilities. There is harm that affects people immediately and repeatedly, and also an accumulated harm over a lifetime and even generationally, leaving them to a less favorable starting point. The mw-system includes overt and covert discrimination; it includes discriminatory systems in supporting areas like housing, food and healthcare that exacerbate and magnify the additional systems that affect things like hiring and promotions. It includes systems of ongoing discrimination even after a succesful hiring, like muting and silencing voices in meetings, design and publications.



The e-system is relatively new. Extremely new. It affects far fewer people, and it affects them far fewer times. The mechanisms are not baked into covert magnifiers or proxies that are used for additional discrimination. Moreover, it’s intent is to enable equity, so it has a built-in sunset, and a significant percent of social spaces loudly and proudly do not use it at all.





We watch a group of people argue that fixing the e-system must receive top billing over fixing the mw-system. Indeed, we watch them deny that the mw-system even exists, but that the e-system is widespread and inescapeable. We watch them try to change the discussion at every poosible opportunity to the e-system, and present isolated incidents as widespread issues.



Groups of people have been doing this to maintain unequal power for a very long time, and we can expect them to continue to fight against equity.
But tomc is still going too whine about it.

Say what?
Is having a different opinion, that I can back up, from the Wokesters mean...

Never mind.
 
When I was first hired, I actually did know about other applicants, because we had a group stage assessment. While I don't know for sure if my race and sex counted against me, I suspect they did, given what I know and have seen about the public service since.
You suspect your race and sex counted against you yet you got the job.
Yes. Those are not mutually contradictory.


But you cannot accept that race and sex counted against those that didn't get the job.
Where did I say that?
 
When I was first hired, I actually did know about other applicants, because we had a group stage assessment. While I don't know for sure if my race and sex counted against me, I suspect they did, given what I know and have seen about the public service since.
You suspect your race and sex counted against you yet you got the job. But you cannot accept that race and sex counted against those that didn't get the job.
Well duh, it's not racism if it happens to non-whites.
Stop projecting. It is the progressive left who thinks that whatever discrimination happens to white people, it is categorically and definitionally impossible for it to be "racism".
 
When I was first hired, I actually did know about other applicants, because we had a group stage assessment. While I don't know for sure if my race and sex counted against me, I suspect they did, given what I know and have seen about the public service since.
You suspect your race and sex counted against you yet you got the job. But you cannot accept that race and sex counted against those that didn't get the job.
Well duh, it's not racism if it happens to non-whites.
Stop projecting. It is the progressive left who thinks that whatever discrimination happens to white people, it is categorically and definitionally impossible for it to be "racism"
And yet, no one here is, in fact, saying that.
 
When I was first hired, I actually did know about other applicants, because we had a group stage assessment. While I don't know for sure if my race and sex counted against me, I suspect they did, given what I know and have seen about the public service since.
You suspect your race and sex counted against you yet you got the job. But you cannot accept that race and sex counted against those that didn't get the job.
Well duh, it's not racism if it happens to non-whites.
Stop projecting. It is the progressive left who thinks that whatever discrimination happens to white people, it is categorically and definitionally impossible for it to be "racism"
And yet, no one here is, in fact, saying that.
And nobody here thinks that racism can only happen to whites, yet you went ahead and pretended somebody did.
 
When I was first hired, I actually did know about other applicants, because we had a group stage assessment. While I don't know for sure if my race and sex counted against me, I suspect they did, given what I know and have seen about the public service since.
You suspect your race and sex counted against you yet you got the job. But you cannot accept that race and sex counted against those that didn't get the job.
Well duh, it's not racism if it happens to non-whites.
Stop projecting. It is the progressive left who thinks that whatever discrimination happens to white people, it is categorically and definitionally impossible for it to be "racism"
And yet, no one here is, in fact, saying that.
And nobody here thinks that racism can only happen to whites, yet you went ahead and pretended somebody did.
Oh? What would lead you to conclude that a non-white had faced employment discrimination in hiring?
 
When I was first hired, I actually did know about other applicants, because we had a group stage assessment. While I don't know for sure if my race and sex counted against me, I suspect they did, given what I know and have seen about the public service since.
You suspect your race and sex counted against you yet you got the job. But you cannot accept that race and sex counted against those that didn't get the job.
Well duh, it's not racism if it happens to non-whites.
Stop projecting. It is the progressive left who thinks that whatever discrimination happens to white people, it is categorically and definitionally impossible for it to be "racism"
And yet, no one here is, in fact, saying that.
And nobody here thinks that racism can only happen to whites, yet you went ahead and pretended somebody did.
Oh? What would lead you to conclude that a non-white had faced employment discrimination in hiring?
The same kind of evidence that would persuade me that a white person had faced discrimination.
 
When I was first hired, I actually did know about other applicants, because we had a group stage assessment. While I don't know for sure if my race and sex counted against me, I suspect they did, given what I know and have seen about the public service since.
You suspect your race and sex counted against you yet you got the job.
Yes. Those are not mutually contradictory.


But you cannot accept that race and sex counted against those that didn't get the job.
Where did I say that?
You know we can see what you write, right?
 
When I was first hired, I actually did know about other applicants, because we had a group stage assessment. While I don't know for sure if my race and sex counted against me, I suspect they did, given what I know and have seen about the public service since.
You suspect your race and sex counted against you yet you got the job.
Yes. Those are not mutually contradictory.


But you cannot accept that race and sex counted against those that didn't get the job.
Where did I say that?
You know we can see what you write, right?
Yes.

Do you have some rebuttal?
 
When I was first hired, I actually did know about other applicants, because we had a group stage assessment. While I don't know for sure if my race and sex counted against me, I suspect they did, given what I know and have seen about the public service since.
You suspect your race and sex counted against you yet you got the job.
Yes. Those are not mutually contradictory.


But you cannot accept that race and sex counted against those that didn't get the job.
Where did I say that?
You know we can see what you write, right?
Yes.

Do you have some rebuttal?
No.
 
When I was first hired, I actually did know about other applicants, because we had a group stage assessment. While I don't know for sure if my race and sex counted against me, I suspect they did, given what I know and have seen about the public service since.
You suspect your race and sex counted against you yet you got the job.
Yes. Those are not mutually contradictory.


But you cannot accept that race and sex counted against those that didn't get the job.
Where did I say that?
You know we can see what you write, right?
Yes.

Do you have some rebuttal?
That was the rebuttal if you actually think about it.
 
The remedy is to stop discriminating by race and sex.

I'm curious. How do you propose we stop folks that discriminate by race and sex from doing so when shaking our fingers at them disapprovingly doesn't work?
There have been laws against discriminating by race and sex since the 1970s in Australia. These are actionable in our state and territory human rights boards and commissions.
What kind of action does AUS law take? I'm not asking for "we have laws". What does the law do about it when someone is found guilty of discrimination?
There is a wide variety of options available: fines, specific action, etc

So just like the USA they pay a fee (sometimes with discounts) to use the discrimination lane.
Any crime punishable only by a fine, is only a crime for poor people.
 
The remedy is to stop discriminating by race and sex.

I'm curious. How do you propose we stop folks that discriminate by race and sex from doing so when shaking our fingers at them disapprovingly doesn't work?
There have been laws against discriminating by race and sex since the 1970s in Australia. These are actionable in our state and territory human rights boards and commissions.
What kind of action does AUS law take? I'm not asking for "we have laws". What does the law do about it when someone is found guilty of discrimination?
It varies somewhat in the details from state to state, but here in Queensland:

The process for resolving discrimination, sexual harassment, vilification and victimisation matters focuses on conciliation. At a conciliation conference an independent conciliator will help you, and those you are complaining about, discuss your concerns and try to reach an agreement to resolve the complaint.

If the matter is not resolved through conciliation, under Queensland law it can be referred for a formal hearing in:

These bodies can make a legally binding decision on the matter.

If QIRC or QCAT find that you’ve suffered discrimination, sexual harassment, vilification and victimisation you may receive financial compensation.
https://www.qld.gov.au/law/your-rights/discrimination-and-equality/discrimination-and-your-rights

More information about discrimination and its redress can be found at the Queensland Human Rights Commission website.

Yup, just as I thought. There is a discrimination expressway that for a nominal fee you can continue to discriminate. The state may as well make money off murder and rape too by just charging a fee and letting you go.
Not really. QIRC might order financial compensation, but typically they order restitution instead, or in extreme cases, as well.

If you were fired or passed over for promotion illegally, QIRC can and do order your employer to take you back on, or to promote you.

Where that is impractical or impossible, compensation may cost as much as, or more than, the income you were denied - they may be required to pay you an amount equivalent to the lost salary or wage, whether or not they have any work for you to do.

Some case studies, with details of the non-financial penalties, can be found at https://www.qhrc.qld.gov.au/resources/case-studies/race-case-studies

That page also has links to the Queensland Supreme Court Library website, and to the Australian Legal Information Institute (AUSTLII), where full details of court cases of every kind can be found if you care enough to search for them.
 
if you care enough to search for them.

Would have been nice if you sent a link to a case of severe reprimand. But sure I'll go looking for it because I do care that discrimination isn't treated with a heavy hand in the majority of cases in every modern civilization.

Edit: At a glance so far all I see is forced apologies, policy changes and finacial compensation & not a single mutha fucka sent to prison.
 
Exactly what I was saying about discrimination being against the individual. It makes no difference to you what the unemployment rate is of those like you.
Well that’s immensely selfish, innit.

A lot of us actually care about people besides ouselves.

You're missing the point.

Whether your group has high unemployment or low unemployment does not change whether you are unemployed. 3% or 30% unemployment, you still don't have a job. Sure, others matter, but when you put them into groups and say one matters more than another you're discriminating.

So, interestingly, several of the people in this thread that you are hammering for not understanding the selfish “but what about me?” argument that you are making, have actually been denied jobs because of their race or gender. It has happened to me three times that were expressed to my face. Who knows how many times that were not blatantly expressed. And I amcertain if you asked some of the other posters who care about the systemic discrimination, you will find that they, too, have experienced it more than once.

We have people being denied jobs for the sin of being male. That's just as wrong as being denied a job because they are female.

And so, I (and possibly these others posting) care about the systemic part of this. And want to undo its today effects. I still care that the system is in place and the same people are likely to suffer it multiple times. I know that it is ongoing and detrimental, and a large number of people have accumulated harm from it. And I am not ashamed to put my energy into advocating for the people with the most accumulated harm first. And if it means I lose out on a job to aqualified black person, then I feel society benefits from decreased accumulated harm. There’s a lot to fix here, sometimes it’s hard work. I can rail against the generation before me who didn’t do the work and just rode the privilege, rather than whinging at the other people suffering from it today. And as it turns out, some white people are suffering - alongside me - due to that historic problem. Welcome aboard. You know who you should be mad at.

And as for the graphic, yes, 4% is supposed to be full employment, right? So there are statistically a lot of other jobs available?

And here we differ--the past harm is past, without a time machine it can't be changed. What's important is minimizing future harm and you're choosing the path that not only increases it but drives racial tensions as well, thus perpetuating the problem.
 
Exactly what I was saying about discrimination being against the individual. It makes no difference to you what the unemployment rate is of those like you.
Oh, that's not true. There are actually people who care about others and who care when they see others who are not them harmed by unfair labor practices.
Hey, I get that that probably wasn't a serious argument and you're probably just sneering at LP because he's an infidel; but your second sentence does not actually contradict LP's statement. Where the heck do you see him indicating he doesn't care when he sees others who are not him harmed by unfair labor practices? Quite the reverse -- his post was expressing that he does care. He cares about every individual who is discriminated against. It's unfair for a person in a demographic with a 4.7% unemployment rate to be discriminated against; it's unfair for a person in a demographic with an 8.6% unemployment rate to be discriminated against. Whether we're talking about the rate of those "like you" or the rate of those not "like you" has no impact on whether it's fair.

Exactly. I care about individuals as individuals. Not as members of groups. What group someone belongs to can be relevant to the sociologists, but is meaningless at the personal level.

And another person with a reading comprehension problem. Pay attention to context. He means the unemployment rate of others in your demographic doesn't make a difference to you with respect to whether you've been harmed and treated unfairly by someone who discriminated against you.

It is very hard for the faithful to understand blasphemous arguments.
 
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