Discrimination -- the reality

[TomC]

Exactly what I was saying about discrimination being against the individual. It makes no difference to you what the unemployment rate is of those like you.

Oh, that's not true. There are actually people who care about others and who care when they see others who are not them harmed by unfair labor practices.

Hey, I get that that probably wasn't a serious argument and you're probably just sneering at LP because he's an infidel; but your second sentence does not actually contradict LP's statement. Where the heck do you see him indicating he doesn't care when he sees others who are not him harmed by unfair labor practices? Quite the reverse -- his post was expressing that he does care. He cares about every individual who is discriminated against. It's unfair for a person in a demographic with a 4.7% unemployment rate to be discriminated against; it's unfair for a person in a demographic with an 8.6% unemployment rate to be discriminated against. Whether we're talking about the rate of those "like you" or the rate of those not "like you" has no impact on whether it's fair.

Exactly. I care about individuals as individuals. Not as members of groups. What group someone belongs to can be relevant to the sociologists, but is meaningless at the personal level.

And another person with a reading comprehension problem. Pay attention to context. He means the unemployment rate of others in your demographic doesn't make a difference to you with respect to whether you've been harmed and treated unfairly by someone who discriminated against you.

It is very hard for the faithful to understand blasphemous arguments.

Particularly when they're responding inside a community that overwhelmingly supports their ideology.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's a religious group, and that it's okay to discriminate against white people is one of the tenets of their religion.

I find it somewhat annoying when people use the word "religious" this way. But you've got a strong point.
Here in the USA, being born white and male is a great deal like Original Sin. My supposed ancestors did something bad, so therefore I'm guilty. Doesn't matter what I actually do myself, I will always be white, male, and guilty as sin. My only hope for acceptance from my betters is to recognize that and behave myself as I am told.
Tom

The fundamental characteristic of religion is a core belief set that is taken on faith. Deities are not required, the supernatural is not required.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Except that the 3% v 30% means more for the broader community.

You want to give the most weight in saying preventing a person of a group at 3% from employment is as wrong for one in a group at 10 or 15% unemployment.

But there is a substantial issue if one group has a substantially higher unemployment. That is a screaming indicator of inequality in opportunity.

The truth is, evidence of white people being kept from jobs is scant and hearsay. The unemployment numbers speak volumes.

You are advocating for an equitable system that can only lead to castes which has little to do with equality.

There is no fair way to fix centuries of intentional discrimination.

Exactly what I was saying about discrimination being against the individual. It makes no difference to you what the unemployment rate is of those like you.

Well that’s immensely selfish, innit.

A lot of us actually care about people besides ouselves.

You're missing the point.

Whether your group has high unemployment or low unemployment does not change whether you are unemployed. 3% or 30% unemployment, you still don't have a job. Sure, others matter, but when you put them into groups and say one matters more than another you're discriminating.

 

[bilby]

At a glance so far all I see is forced apologies, policy changes and finacial compensation & not a single mutha fucka sent to prison.

These are Australians. They're already in a prison

 

[Bomb#20]

Edit: At a glance so far all I see is forced apologies, policy changes and finacial compensation & not ... sent to prison.

Don't know about Australian law; but in the U.S., civil penalties only require preponderance of the evidence, whereas people are innocent until proven guilty so criminal sanctions require proof beyond reasonable doubt. Discrimination is a thought in the defendant's head, which means proof beyond reasonable doubt is going to be a very tough standard for a prosecutor to meet. Sticking with civil litigation is a lot more practical.

 

[TomC]

But there is a substantial issue if one group has a substantially higher unemployment. That is a screaming indicator of inequality in opportunity.

Unemployment rates are among the most easily manipulated statistics known in modern American society.

Does someone who's government benefits pay more than any job they're qualified for, with a lot less effort, as long as they keep applying for jobs they won't take, qualify as "unemployed"? Does someone who would like a job, but would have to move to a different place and doesn't want to do that, qualify as "unemployed"?

I've got a relative, late 20s white guy, who won't take a job paying less than $18/ hr with lots of benefits. He lives, literally, in his parents basement for free. He thinks he's unemployed.
I keep my mouth shut. Because family...
Tom

 

[atrib]

It's a religious group, and that it's okay to discriminate against white people is one of the tenets of their religion.

I find it somewhat annoying when people use the word "religious" this way. But you've got a strong point.
Here in the USA, being born white and male is a great deal like Original Sin. My supposed ancestors did something bad, so therefore I'm guilty. Doesn't matter what I actually do myself, I will always be white, male, and guilty as sin. My only hope for acceptance from my betters is to recognize that and behave myself as I am told.
Tom

On the contrary, being born white and male in the US is a lot like winning the lottery. Billions of people all over the world would happily trade places with you. So quit whining about it, and see a psychiatrist to get your complex treated.

 

[TomC]

the contrary, being born white and male in the US is a lot like winning the lottery.

Maybe for you it was.

My partner, Doug, was also born a white male.

He was the bastard child of his mother, black sheep of her Christian family, in 1962. First sex he had was with the youth minister at her Methodist church, while he was single digits. Second was her brother, his uncle. She married a guy so abusive he broke Doug's jaw a couple of times, he dropped out of school, and ran off. Nobody came looking for him.


Tom

 

[Gospel]

Edit: At a glance so far all I see is forced apologies, policy changes and finacial compensation & not ... sent to prison.

Don't know about Australian law; but in the U.S., civil penalties only require preponderance of the evidence, whereas people are innocent until proven guilty so criminal sanctions require proof beyond reasonable doubt. Discrimination is a thought in the defendant's head, which means proof beyond reasonable doubt is going to be a very tough standard for a prosecutor to meet. Sticking with civil litigation is a lot more practical.

Hmm. I suppose that's a fare take. On a different (yet same) note hate crimes are being handled properly with prison time being an option. I just don't see how discrimination (when found to be done deliberately) should be any different. Of course stupid cases like a Baker crying "boohoo protect my beliefs and screw everyone elses" shouldn't be a prison time worthy case. But if for example a real-estate agent causes people to lose out on an investment because "herp derp" I don't see why we can't count that as theft, grab them by the belt & collar then merry go round that ass into a jail cell.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But there is a substantial issue if one group has a substantially higher unemployment. That is a screaming indicator of inequality in opportunity.

Unemployment rates are among the most easily manipulated statistics known in modern American society.

Does someone who's government benefits pay more than any job they're qualified for, with a lot less effort, as long as they keep applying for jobs they won't take, qualify as "unemployed"? Does someone who would like a job, but would have to move to a different place and doesn't want to do that, qualify as "unemployed"?

I've got a relative, late 20s white guy, who won't take a job paying less than $18/ hr with lots of benefits. He lives, literally, in his parents basement for free. He thinks he's unemployed.
I keep my mouth shut. Because family...
Tom

I'm sorry if you misunderstood what I was talking about. I was referring to the large broad and very well established unemployment gulf that exists between Blacks (specifically) and Whites in America... not anecdotes and exceptions.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

the contrary, being born white and male in the US is a lot like winning the lottery.

Maybe for you it was.

My partner, Doug, was also born a white male.

He was the bastard child of his mother, black sheep of her Christian family, in 1962. First sex he had was with the youth minister at her Methodist church, while he was single digits. Second was her brother, his uncle. She married a guy so abusive he broke Doug's jaw a couple of times, he dropped out of school, and ran off. Nobody came looking for him.

Fuck you and your "being born white and male is like winning the lottery" bullshit.
Tom

Well gosh, another anecdote. I guess that wipes away the racial disparity that exists. Imagine the black kid in the same situation... but he'll get stopped driving a car several times because he's black too. Bonus!

 

[Gospel]

the contrary, being born white and male in the US is a lot like winning the lottery.

Maybe for you it was.

My partner, Doug, was also born a white male.

He was the bastard child of his mother, black sheep of her Christian family, in 1962. First sex he had was with the youth minister at her Methodist church, while he was single digits. Second was her brother, his uncle. She married a guy so abusive he broke Doug's jaw a couple of times, he dropped out of school, and ran off. Nobody came looking for him.

Fuck you and your "being born white and male is like winning the lottery" bullshit.
Tom

I agree, white people go through stuff too.

Psssst the word "too" is very important.

 

[TomC]

the contrary, being born white and male in the US is a lot like winning the lottery.

Maybe for you it was.

My partner, Doug, was also born a white male.

He was the bastard child of his mother, black sheep of her Christian family, in 1962. First sex he had was with the youth minister at her Methodist church, while he was single digits. Second was her brother, his uncle. She married a guy so abusive he broke Doug's jaw a couple of times, he dropped out of school, and ran off. Nobody came looking for him.

Fuck you and your "being born white and male is like winning the lottery" bullshit.
Tom

Well gosh, another anecdote. I guess that wipes away the racial disparity that exists.

Bless Your Heart.
And Bless the Hearts of the ideologues you rode in on.
Tom

 

[TomC]

the contrary, being born white and male in the US is a lot like winning the lottery.

Maybe for you it was.

My partner, Doug, was also born a white male.

He was the bastard child of his mother, black sheep of her Christian family, in 1962. First sex he had was with the youth minister at her Methodist church, while he was single digits. Second was her brother, his uncle. She married a guy so abusive he broke Doug's jaw a couple of times, he dropped out of school, and ran off. Nobody came looking for him.

Fuck you and your "being born white and male is like winning the lottery" bullshit.
Tom

I agree, white people go through stuff too.

Psssst the word "too" is very important.

Thanx for sharing, Tesla man.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

the contrary, being born white and male in the US is a lot like winning the lottery.

Maybe for you it was.

My partner, Doug, was also born a white male.

He was the bastard child of his mother, black sheep of her Christian family, in 1962. First sex he had was with the youth minister at her Methodist church, while he was single digits. Second was her brother, his uncle. She married a guy so abusive he broke Doug's jaw a couple of times, he dropped out of school, and ran off. Nobody came looking for him.

Fuck you and your "being born white and male is like winning the lottery" bullshit.
Tom

Well gosh, another anecdote. I guess that wipes away the racial disparity that exists.

Bless Your Heart.
And Bless the Hearts of the ideologues you rode in on.
Tom

What, am I supposed to just derail the thread because of a personal anecdote? You took atrib's comment out of context, derailing a conversation on racial disparity by using the experience of some person as a political cattle prod. White people suffering doesn't mean that white people, in general, don't have to put up with shit other people do... merely because of the color of their skin.

 

[Metaphor]

Except that the 3% v 30% means more for the broader community.

You want to give the most weight in saying preventing a person of a group at 3% from employment is as wrong for one in a group at 10 or 15% unemployment.

But there is a substantial issue if one group has a substantially higher unemployment. That is a screaming indicator of inequality in opportunity.

The truth is, evidence of white people being kept from jobs is scant and hearsay.

Being kept from a job isn't the only form of discrimination. There is losing out on a promotion, or not being considered fairly for it. There are university admissions and grants for black business owners and even State-funded debt relief but only for nonwhites.

The unemployment numbers speak volumes.

You are advocating for an equitable system that can only lead to castes which has little to do with equality.

Advocating discrimination against white people and white males in particular is a caste system.

There is no fair way to fix centuries of intentional discrimination.

There's no way to do it at all, let alone a fair way.

Exactly what I was saying about discrimination being against the individual. It makes no difference to you what the unemployment rate is of those like you.

Well that’s immensely selfish, innit.

A lot of us actually care about people besides ouselves.

You're missing the point.

Whether your group has high unemployment or low unemployment does not change whether you are unemployed. 3% or 30% unemployment, you still don't have a job. Sure, others matter, but when you put them into groups and say one matters more than another you're discriminating.

 

[Gospel]

the contrary, being born white and male in the US is a lot like winning the lottery.

Maybe for you it was.

My partner, Doug, was also born a white male.

He was the bastard child of his mother, black sheep of her Christian family, in 1962. First sex he had was with the youth minister at her Methodist church, while he was single digits. Second was her brother, his uncle. She married a guy so abusive he broke Doug's jaw a couple of times, he dropped out of school, and ran off. Nobody came looking for him.

Fuck you and your "being born white and male is like winning the lottery" bullshit.
Tom

I agree, white people go through stuff too.

Psssst the word "too" is very important.

Thanx for sharing, Tesla man.
Tom

Took me years to finally be able to afford a car that doesn't have over 180k miles on it. I'm a very happy driver now as apposed to that worried about the sound it's making driver I was before. Anyhow, discussions on discrimination always seem to either turn into a competition about who's discriminated against the most or whether there is discrimination at all. I look forward to the day we can just say, "there it is! (as it always has been) Now what can we do to finally be rid of it for good?" because financial punishment and forced apologies/policy changes just don't seem to be getting the job done. My proposal is to implement laws that are as effective as vaccinations were for smallpox. Prison sentences for the obviously egregious discrimination is what I think.

 

[Metaphor]

The discussion reminded me of the traits of whiteness in America, which include being on time, planning for the future, objective, rational linear thinking, respecting authority, and belief in hard work.

It beggars belief, frankly, that the white-black employment gap is as small as it is, given the superiority of these white cultural traits for a workplace.

 

[Metaphor]

I look forward to the day we can just say, "there it is! (as it always has been) Now what can we do to finally be rid of it for good?"

That is never going to happen in the history of the universe.

 

[Politesse]

Just because you assume something is true of yourself doesn't mean that it actually is.