Disney's Frozen is coming for your manhood

[DBT]

Some see high income as form of status. The higher the income, the higher the status and sense of self worth. Not the best world view, but there it is....

 

[bigfield]

Some see high income as form of status. The higher the income, the higher the status and sense of self worth. Not the best world view, but there it is....

It's a hilarious double standard, especially since Derec has complained about the double standards of feminists in this very thread. It's OK for women to earn less than their male partners, but not OK for men to earn less than their male partners.

 

[Bomb#20]

I've heard the movie was real good.

It wasn't.

You're probably not the target audience. It certainly seems to have had an impact on the younger set.

Goddaughter#1: Do you want to build a snowman?
Goddaughter#2: <prattle prattle prattle>
Goddaughter#1: Shut up, I'm singing about sisterly love!​

 

[Togo]

I kinda liked it.

The huge fuss Fox is making is not because the men are particularly stupid or particularly incompetent - they're not. The female lead is still the least competant character, her sister still has emotional issues that stop her running the kingdom, and both male characters are entirely competant and capable. The fuss is because towards the end of the film, who the princess falls in love with and marries turns out to be largely irrelevent to the plot, thus undermining and subeverting every princess story disney has ever told. It doesn't end in a wedding, the male and female lead still like each other, but getting married is not an end in itself, nor does the plot hinge on it.

That's what has got Fox's knickers in a twist. The men aren't particularly evil - most Disney films have worse. The men aren't particularly incompetant - they both sucessfully carry out their plans, demonstrating themselves to be both more practical and more intelligent than the woman they are with, which is almost unheard of in previous Disney films. The near-obligatory incompetant male toady sidekick that you get in most Disney films is entirely absent. The men in the film are fine.

No the problem is that the woman are the focus of the story, and getting married is seen as optional. That's the horror that has the conservatives up in arms.

It's just a film that passes the Betchdel test. We need more like them.

 

[Arctish]

The men aren't particularly evil - most Disney films have worse. The men aren't particularly incompetant - they both sucessfully carry out their plans, demonstrating themselves to be both more practical and more intelligent than the woman they are with, which is almost unheard of in previous Disney films. The near-obligatory incompetant male toady sidekick that you get in most Disney films is entirely absent. The men in the film are fine.

No the problem is that the woman are the focus of the story, and getting married is seen as optional. That's the horror that has the conservatives up in arms.

I think you're right.

 

[Playball40]

I do not know about Frozen but especially in many US commercials and sitcoms men are usually portrayed as idiots who have to be rescued by their smart wives. I think at least part of the reason is rampant political correctness and the fact that if a woman were portrayed as stupid and man as smart the work would be labeled as "sexist" with brigades of radical feminists descending to attack the work.
Unfortunately this kind of bitching about non-PC content is starting to happen for video games as well with that insufferable Anita Sarkeesian character.

Like that doesn't happen, right? Please. "What are you wearing, Jake from state farm?" Talk about making a woman look like an insecure shrew. Unfortunately that's advertising....I don't like it when EITHER gender is portrayed that way.

- - - Updated - - -

"On Fox & Friends Wednesday morning Penny Young Nance, CEO of Concerned Women for America, warned host Steve Doocy that Hollywood was undercutting traditional notions of masculinity, to the point of endangering the production of “real men.”

“Hollywood in general has often sent the message that men are stupid, in the way, and if they contribute anything to the family, it’s a paycheck,” Nance said. “The question for us as moms is when we bring our daughters to see Frozen, or whatever the movie is, we often have our little boys sitting there, and is this message helpful? We want them to know that they’re essential. We want to raise heroes. We want to raise real men that will stick in their families and be great dads and be great providers and great husbands.”

Kids learn more from the men in their lives than some disney cartoon.

 

[Toni]

Some see high income as form of status. The higher the income, the higher the status and sense of self worth. Not the best world view, but there it is....

There's status but I think the disparity in perceived power is the real issue for some.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Female protagonists are apparently bad things. Got it.

Incredible someone can watch that film and complain about these sorts of things. The only thing I usually think of is "Is Menzel a really good singer or just a good stage singer who can belt a note."

Some see high income as form of status. The higher the income, the higher the status and sense of self worth. Not the best world view, but there it is....

It's a hilarious double standard, especially since Derec has complained about the double standards of feminists in this very thread. It's OK for women to earn less than their male partners, but not OK for men to earn less than their male partners.

...on a fictional program.

 

[bigfield]

It's a hilarious double standard, especially since Derec has complained about the double standards of feminists in this very thread. It's OK for women to earn less than their male partners, but not OK for men to earn less than their male partners.

Correction: should be "not OK men to earn less than their female partners."

 

[ksen]

Disney concentrates on Princess movies because that's where the merchandising money is. They are good at it and will stick to stories that little girls like and stuff they want to buy.

I didn't say anything against princess movies per se. It should certainly be possible to make a princess movie without denigrating men. I cannot say whether or not Frozen is anti-male as the article in the OP claimed, but I did point to a general tendency in media to that effect.

derec, it's ok . . . I'm sure you are someone's little princess.

 

[ksen]

I kinda liked it.

The huge fuss Fox is making is not because the men are particularly stupid or particularly incompetent - they're not. The female lead is still the least competant character, her sister still has emotional issues that stop her running the kingdom, and both male characters are entirely competant and capable. The fuss is because towards the end of the film, who the princess falls in love with and marries turns out to be largely irrelevent to the plot, thus undermining and subeverting every princess story disney has ever told. It doesn't end in a wedding, the male and female lead still like each other, but getting married is not an end in itself, nor does the plot hinge on it.

That's what has got Fox's knickers in a twist. The men aren't particularly evil - most Disney films have worse. The men aren't particularly incompetant - they both sucessfully carry out their plans, demonstrating themselves to be both more practical and more intelligent than the woman they are with, which is almost unheard of in previous Disney films. The near-obligatory incompetant male toady sidekick that you get in most Disney films is entirely absent. The men in the film are fine.

No the problem is that the woman are the focus of the story, and getting married is seen as optional. That's the horror that has the conservatives up in arms.

It's just a film that passes the Betchdel test. We need more like them.

Do You Wanna Build a Snowman and Let It Go make me cry every time.

 

[Frikki]

I think Red Pillers are whining shitcocks that can't get laid.

 

[Derec]

Like that doesn't happen, right? Please. "What are you wearing, Jake from state farm?" Talk about making a woman look like an insecure shrew. Unfortunately that's advertising....I don't like it when EITHER gender is portrayed that way.

In her defense, who shops for car insurance at 3 AM?

- - - Updated - - -

I think Red Pillers are whining shitcocks that can't get laid.

As if getting laid was easy.

 

[Derec]

Usually, that's true. But Howard is working in academia, although he isn't teaching (I don't think) so he won't be making big bucks. If Bernadette is making big bucks, it's because she is working for Big Pharma in tv fantasy land.

He also has many years experience vs. her being a recent graduate who hitherto worked as a waitress at Cheesecake Factory.

2. Prior to Bernadette, Howard was at best, a sexist pig who could not stop hitting on Penny or virtually any other female and whose main purpose in life outside of his job and geeky interests was scamming on women, any woman, whom he reduced to stereotypes.

Yeah, he was a lot funnier back then than he is now as a pussy-whipped husband.

So, this thing with Bernadette earning more money, and acting like his mother a)plays into #1 above b)is an amusing turnabout for Howard and c)the allowance thing wouldn't have happened if Howard weren't irresponsible with money and household chores and acted like a grown up instead of a spoilt little boy.

Where was he irresponsible with money?

BTW, what gives with thinking that if a woman earns more money than a man then the man is emasculated? The 50's called and they want their attitudes back, dude.

Bernadette using her making more money is not what's emasculating him but her using her making more money as an excuse to take over all finances even though he makes significant money of his own certainly does.

My husband assures me he would be thrilled if I out-earned him. I would be, too, assuming it wasn't because his earnings sank below the level of mine.

Would he be as "thrilled" if you behaved like Bernadette does, not letting him have access to his own money? If a man did something like that he'd be labeled as abusive, but apparently it's ok if a woman does it.

You must be forgetting Denise, the family screw up/air head.

My recollection might be fuzzy but I do not recall any academic challenges she had.

Theo wasn't dumb, but it was discovered that he had a learning disability--dyslexia, which in fact, is more common in males than in females.

Don't recall that either.

Claire just tried to keep Heathcliff on the straight and narrow when it came to eating right.

She completely overdid it. Him having to sneak food was a common enough occurrence. Also she forbade him from getting a pilot's licence. Imagine if a husband forbade his wife anything?

That's pretty much one of those things that a whole lot of wives do, Derec.

I wouldn't know.

Have you actually seen Frozen, Derec?

No, as I indicated from the start.

Aside from that, I will agree with you that idiot father as a TV trope is offensive. I don't care for it, either.

Well at least we agree on something.

 

[Frikki]

He also has many years experience vs. her being a recent graduate who hitherto worked as a waitress at Cheesecake Factory.

2. Prior to Bernadette, Howard was at best, a sexist pig who could not stop hitting on Penny or virtually any other female and whose main purpose in life outside of his job and geeky interests was scamming on women, any woman, whom he reduced to stereotypes.

Yeah, he was a lot funnier back then then he is now as a pussy-whipped husband.

So, this thing with Bernadette earning more money, and acting like his mother a)plays into #1 above b)is an amusing turnabout for Howard and c)the allowance thing wouldn't have happened if Howard weren't irresponsible with money and household chores and acted like a grown up instead of a spoilt little boy.

Where was he irresponsible with money?

BTW, what gives with thinking that if a woman earns more money than a man then the man is emasculated? The 50's called and they want their attitudes back, dude.

Bernadette using her making more money is not what's emasculating him but her using her making more money as an excuse to take over all finances even though he makes significant money of his own certainly does.

My husband assures me he would be thrilled if I out-earned him. I would be, too, assuming it wasn't because his earnings sank below the level of mine.

Would he be as "thrilled" if you behaved like Bernadette does, not letting him have access to his own money?

You must be forgetting Denise, the family screw up/air head.

My recollection might be fuzzy but I do not recall any academic challenges she had.

Theo wasn't dumb, but it was discovered that he had a learning disability--dyslexia, which in fact, is more common in males than in females.

Don't recall that either.

Claire just tried to keep Heathcliff on the straight and narrow when it came to eating right.

She completely overdid it. Him having to sneak food was a common enough occurrence. Also she forbade him from getting a pilot's licence. Imagine if a husband forbade his wife anything?

That's pretty much one of those things that a whole lot of wives do, Derec.

I wouldn't know.

Have you actually seen Frozen, Derec?

No, as I indicated from the start.

Aside from that, I will agree with you that idiot father as a TV trope is offensive. I don't care for it, either.

Well at least we agree on something.

Who hurt you Derec?

 

[Rhea]

Well this got very funny very fast.

I am that this discussion is being taken seriously. That a Disney movie is "emasculating men" by having male characters who, while strong, are not the main focus of the story. LOL

bwaaa haaahaa!!!
Talk about self- emasculation!

 

[AthenaAwakened]

He also has many years experience vs. her being a recent graduate who hitherto worked as a waitress at Cheesecake Factory.


Yeah, he was a lot funnier back then then he is now as a pussy-whipped husband.

So, this thing with Bernadette earning more money, and acting like his mother a)plays into #1 above b)is an amusing turnabout for Howard and c)the allowance thing wouldn't have happened if Howard weren't irresponsible with money and household chores and acted like a grown up instead of a spoilt little boy.

Where was he irresponsible with money?

BTW, what gives with thinking that if a woman earns more money than a man then the man is emasculated? The 50's called and they want their attitudes back, dude.

Bernadette using her making more money is not what's emasculating him but her using her making more money as an excuse to take over all finances even though he makes significant money of his own certainly does.

My husband assures me he would be thrilled if I out-earned him. I would be, too, assuming it wasn't because his earnings sank below the level of mine.

Would he be as "thrilled" if you behaved like Bernadette does, not letting him have access to his own money?

You must be forgetting Denise, the family screw up/air head.

My recollection might be fuzzy but I do not recall any academic challenges she had.

Theo wasn't dumb, but it was discovered that he had a learning disability--dyslexia, which in fact, is more common in males than in females.

Don't recall that either.

Claire just tried to keep Heathcliff on the straight and narrow when it came to eating right.

She completely overdid it. Him having to sneak food was a common enough occurrence. Also she forbade him from getting a pilot's licence. Imagine if a husband forbade his wife anything?

That's pretty much one of those things that a whole lot of wives do, Derec.

I wouldn't know.

Have you actually seen Frozen, Derec?

No, as I indicated from the start.

Aside from that, I will agree with you that idiot father as a TV trope is offensive. I don't care for it, either.

Well at least we agree on something.

Who hurt you Derec?

He'll never say. But he'll never successfully hide the hurt either.

 

[bigfield]

This thread has really taken a turn.

 

[Toni]

He also has many years experience vs. her being a recent graduate who hitherto worked as a waitress at Cheesecake Factory.

They are in different fields for starters. Also if she earned her Ph.D., then she was long engaged in original research and the writing of academic journal ready research papers--very valuable experience--several years of it, in fact. It is pretty unlikely that she'd have had time to work at the Cheesecake Factory. Also, this is tv and is what is known as a plot point.

2. Prior to Bernadette, Howard was at best, a sexist pig who could not stop hitting on Penny or virtually any other female and whose main purpose in life outside of his job and geeky interests was scamming on women, any woman, whom he reduced to stereotypes.

Yeah, he was a lot funnier back then then he is now as a pussy-whipped husband.

I can see why some people would relate better to pre-Bernadette Howard who spent most of his intimate time alone in a bathtub with a soapy wash cloth or else with women he had to pay or who otherwise dominated him.

Ah, well, everyone has his or her own sense of humor.

So, this thing with Bernadette earning more money, and acting like his mother a)plays into #1 above b)is an amusing turnabout for Howard and c)the allowance thing wouldn't have happened if Howard weren't irresponsible with money and household chores and acted like a grown up instead of a spoilt little boy.

Where was he irresponsible with money?

I believe the event that led to getting put on an allowance was when he spent thousands of dollars on a 3-D printer so that he could make miniature figures of himself and of Bernadette.

I believe that their long term goal is to save up enough money to buy a house. That would mean that they would both need to reign in discretionary spending: i.e. put themselves on allowances.

BTW, what gives with thinking that if a woman earns more money than a man then the man is emasculated? The 50's called and they want their attitudes back, dude.

Bernadette using her making more money is not what's emasculating him but her using her making more money as an excuse to take over all finances even though he makes significant money of his own certainly does.

Bernadette responded to Howard's lack of responsibility, not the disparity in their earnings.

My husband earns significantly more money than I do. I manage the finances, for the most part. He doesn't feel emasculated. He's grateful he doesn't have to deal with the day to day crap.

My husband assures me he would be thrilled if I out-earned him. I would be, too, assuming it wasn't because his earnings sank below the level of mine.

Would he be as "thrilled" if you behaved like Bernadette does, not letting him have access to his own money?

First of all: it's all our money. It always has been, since before we were actually married. Partly out of practicality: in the early days, the only way we'd have enough to cover rent on a very cheap apartment was by pooling our money. Now, it represents the fact that we are in this (marriage, life, whatever) together, equally. Our earnings do not translate into who has the most say or who is more important or more powerful.

Secondly, for a long while, I set a budget and said: this is how much money you have every week to spend (discretionary spending, not fixed or routine expenses) and this is how much I am spending. I set the budget because I was more practical and actually was the person who paid bills, bought groceries, bought the kids new shoes, etc. I knew the day to day better and he was happy not to be bothered with the day to day. I would have preferred a more joint process but I worked with what I had.

At this point, we don't have to be as locked into a tight budget as we used to need but those frugal habits have paid off. We agreed a long time ago that for any discretionary spending over a certain dollar amount, we needed to talk to each other first--no $1000 surprise! purchases. We each have some money that is entirely our own to do with as we wish but the vast majority of our income is pooled.

You must be forgetting Denise, the family screw up/air head.

My recollection might be fuzzy but I do not recall any academic challenges she had.

She dropped out of college, took and quit a number of low paying jobs, ran off to Africa and came home married, with a step child. She was not a paragon of responsibility and good decision making.

Theo wasn't dumb, but it was discovered that he had a learning disability--dyslexia, which in fact, is more common in males than in females.

Don't recall that either.

It was a major thing, later in the season. Actually, we just knew a lot more about Theo's academics than the others. Sondra was in law school, Denise was being Denise; Vanessa was noted as being particularly bright but sometimes still had school issues; Rudy was just young. Theo was noticed because he was the only boy in the family (a dynamic I believe that reflected Cosby's own children). I thought it was actually great when they wrote dyslexia into the show as it showed that Theo wasn't just a privileged screw up but someone who had a particular issue that he had been bright enough to compensate for but who really needed to learn some specific strategies so that he could become successful.

That's pretty much one of those things that a whole lot of wives do, Derec.

I wouldn't know.

In general, a lot of men neglect their health and a lot of men are inclined to eat things which are not healthy for them to eat, etc. Traditionally, women do most of the cooking and meal preparation (also on the Cosby show) and are traditionally caretakers.

Have you actually seen Frozen, Derec?

No, as I indicated from the start.

Yeah, well: surprise surprise: Fox was wrong about something. I won't go so far as to suggest you waste valuable time on such mediocre crap and to see it for yourself but if you did, I think you would see that in fact, men are not emasculated and come off better than the female characters.

Aside from that, I will agree with you that idiot father as a TV trope is offensive. I don't care for it, either.

Well at least we agree on something.

I know, right? Let's both try not to faint or anything.

 

[Ford]

I blame all this emasculation on the heads of the major studios in Hollywood...especially the CEO of Disney. What's her name again?