Does "Rape Culture" exist?

[Bronzeage]

Of rape claims. I think much of the range comes from the low numbers being claims that didn't get washed out very early on, the high numbers including cases where the cops promptly figured out she was lying, often before charges were ever filed.

I think this is one of the statistics which are made up on the spot. When the number of actual false rape claims are compared to the number of unreported rapes, it would have to be a very small percentage.

I'll stand firm on my claim that the source of this sort of thing is an irrational fear of women's sexuality.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Being raped one to immediate physical danger (including death), deadly stds, years of mental anguish and shame, and, if the victim is a woman and the rapist a man, dealing with an unwanted pregnancy. Call me crazy, but I'd take a false accusation of rape over being raped anytime. My guess is that just about anyone would make the same choice if forced. But your response is just another example of the "rape apologia" subculture in the US with its minimization of the ordeal and trauma that rape victims endure.

And the false allegation of rape risks real rape and death in jail.

 

[dystopian]

Nonsense. I am not trying to trivialize experience of rape (I acknowledge it is horrible). It is you who is trivializing false rape allegations. Reminds me of that feminist Vassar provost who claimed being falsely accused of rape is a good thing for young men to experience.

I have never *once* seen you post in a thread on this or the former board except to rant against feminimism/rape charges, Derec, so your defense has essentially zero credibility. You constantly trivialize people's experiences with rape in almost every post of yours I've ever seen; acknowledging that rape is a terrible thing in itself does not mean you can not trivialize the rape experiences of vast swaths of women; especially not when your definition of 'rape' seems almost entirely arbitrary and self-serving.

You're like the guy who insists he isn't a racist, yet constantly finds ways to rant about 'those black people' even when it has fuck all to do with the topic at hand. No matter how much he insists he isn't a racist, nobody's dumb enough to believe him.

 

[Derec]

I think this is one of the statistics which are made up on the spot. When the number of actual false rape claims are compared to the number of unreported rapes, it would have to be a very small percentage.

Talk about things being made up on the spot...

I'll stand firm on my claim that the source of this sort of thing is an irrational fear of women's sexuality.

More like irrational fear of male sexuality - i.e. the radfem canard that all men are potential rapists.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

When someone states that they went through a traumatic experience, particularly one likely to leave long-term emotional and psychological scars, any decent human being should respond by believing them and showing them *sympathy*. Imagine yourself in the shoes of the victim for a moment, and people find out that you're claiming you got raped. How would *you* feel if people around you acted like you probably made the whole thing up because that's what some people have done in the past? It would only serve to cause you more emotional damage when you're in an immensely vulnerable position. It is the sort of thing that causes people to *commit suicide*.

Sorry, but the reality is that she might be seeking sympathy rather than actually being a victim. If it seems dodgy we have a right to question it.

And 8-50% range? You might as well have said the 1-100%. What a completely useless range!

That's the range I've seen in studies.

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What does such a comparison have to do with anything?

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I'm pretty sure you made up that statistic. IIRC The only source you've ever referenced was the FBI, and 8% was the upper limit of their prediction.

8% is the number the FBI was basically sure were bad--and thus a low bound.

 

[dystopian]

If Derect wants to see exactly how he's (constantly) trivializing rape, he should just take a look at the following quote as a general example:

This desire to pretend that false rape allegations are much rarer than they are is yet another example of "rape culture hysteria".

See, in one post Derec says "sure, rape is a terrible thing."; followed in the next post with what basically amounts to; "BUT, women are lying bitches and people who take their word that they got raped are suffering from 'rape culture hysteria'."

 

[Sarpedon]

Here's a simple solution that keeps everyone happy;

Everyone except for people who believe in the first amendment and a free press. A far better solution would be to forbid investigators etc from releasing any of the names and other information, instead of punishing reporters.

 

[Derec]

I have never *once* seen you post in a thread on this or the former board except to rant against feminimism/rape charges, Derec, so your defense has essentially zero credibility.

Nonsense. This (and FRDB) is a discussion board. Where everyone agrees (that actual rape is horrible) not much discussion is needed or even possible. Where discussion happens is where people disagree. There is much less consensus about seriousness of false rape allegation or how rape claims are being mishandled at universities (college students being expelled on little or no evidence).

You constantly trivialize people's experiences with rape in almost every post of yours I've ever seen;

Example?

acknowledging that rape is a terrible thing in itself does not mean you can not trivialize the rape experiences of vast swaths of women;

What I am supposed to do? Join the "hang em high" chorus instead of showing some justified skepticism over rape allegations in the media?

especially not when your definition of 'rape' seems almost entirely arbitrary and self-serving.

Example?

You're like the guy who insists he isn't a racist.

Just like with sexism racism is one of those charges that have very wide definition in some circles. Pretty much if you don't agree with the orthodox ideology on race or gender you get accused as one.

 

[dystopian]

Sorry, but the reality is that she might be seeking sympathy rather than actually being a victim. If it seems dodgy we have a right to question it.

Then question it *quietly*, goddamnit. Otherwise you're just a fucking asshole who doesn't care whether or not his loudmouthed 'questioning' of a traumatized victim traumatizes her even further. And on top of that, you'd clearly not give a shit if your loudmouthed questioning further encourages guys/society at large to automatically be skeptical of the next rape victim who comes along, because when one rape victim (genuine or not) gets slaughtered in the media/society just for claiming she was raped, it inspires everyone to do the same fucking thing with the next case and the next case after that.

Which is really ironic, since that's exactly the sort of thing that this whole thread is about, isn't it? Because yes, *that* is what people mean by 'rape culture', Loren. Congratulations, you're part of the problem.

That's the range I've seen in studies.

No it isn't. You explicitly and literally said you have NO GOOD DATA on the subject, so how the fuck can you have seen the range in studies unless those studies were completely worthless? By your own fucking words?

 

[Derec]

If Derect wants to see exactly how he's (constantly) trivializing rape, he should just take a look at the following quote as a general example:



See, in one post Derec says "sure, rape is a terrible thing."; followed in the next post with what basically amounts to; "BUT, women are lying bitches and people who take their word that they got raped are suffering from 'rape culture hysteria'."

Well some women are "lying bitches" just like some men are "lying pricks" . Unlike you, I do not put women on unrealistic pedestals. And since we do not know if any claim is truthful or not we should not take anyone's word for it without evidence.
Let me guess - you were pretty sure the "privileged white male" Lacrosse players just had to be guilty of raping the "underprivileged black female" stripper/escort, right? After all, we need to take a woman's word for it under any circumstances because "women don't lie about rape"? Anything else is pure misogynism!

 

[Sarpedon]

Perhaps the outrage in the media is a reflection of the outrage in the populace at the inactivity of the authorities. That the media goes to far, goes without saying.

When the media tries to whip up outrage over something people don't care about, it usually falls flat. the sustained outrage shows that people do care about this.

 

[dystopian]

Nonsense. This (and FRDB) is a discussion board. Where everyone agrees (that actual rape is horrible) not much discussion is needed or even possible. Where discussion happens is where people disagree. There is much less consensus about seriousness of false rape allegation or how rape claims are being mishandled at universities (college students being expelled on little or no evidence).

Did you not READ my post before responding to it? I said I have never once seen you post in a thread on this or the former board except to rant on the subject and that therefore your defense has zero credibility. You respond to this with some bullshit nonsensical 'argument' about how this is a discussion board. Which would actually approach something resembling a point were it not for the fact that this is a freethought discussion forum, and not a 'rape, 24/7 discussions about rape' discussion board.

Example?

I already gave one in the post above. You might want to try reading it.

What I am supposed to do? Join the "hang em high" chorus instead of showing some justified skepticism over rape allegations in the media?

Maybe try to stop obsessing over those 'damned lying bitches' and just shut up the next time a victim steps forward? Trust me, nobody on this fucking planet wants to read yet another Derec post about false rape allegations, because it's going to be as fresh and enlightening as a KKK member's thirty-thousanth post on stormfront.

Example?

Once again, you might want to try reading other posts.

Just like with sexism racism is one of those charges that have very wide definition in some circles. Pretty much if you don't agree with the orthodox ideology on race or gender you get accused as one.

No. See, that's just another 'oh noes they're opressing us by telling us we can't opress the people we hate' kind of arguments. You get accused of being a racist if every other word out of your mouth demonstrates hatred for other races. Just like how when every other post out of your account is an angry rant about feminists/rape, it leads one to the inevitable conclusion that you're a sexist asshole.

 

[dystopian]

Unlike you, I do not put women on unrealistic pedestals.

No, you just put them down in the dirt, where they belong right?

See, I don't put women on pedestals. I've just decided; like a normal decent human being; that when someone says they experienced something horrible, that I'm going to assume they're telling the truth. This doesn't mean that I naievely believe nobody ever lies, it just means that it costs me *nothing* to assume that the person is telling the truth while it causes *actual harm* if I were to accuse them of being a liar even though they're not. If it later turns out they were lying, I can always change my mind then.

You on the other hand, assume they're all liars until they've jumped through enough hoops that even you can't maintain your irrational disbelief anymore.

And since we do not know if any claim is truthful or not we should not take anyone's word for it without evidence.

Bullshit.

That argument would work if A), the psychological consequences of expressing skepticism of one party in the conflict's claim were the same as not believing the other. This is patently false.

And B), it would require people like you to just shut your mouths and not poison the well before the facts are in. You want to wait until the facts are in? Great, so why the fuck do we have to constantly hear about it every damned time you open your mouth?

Let me guess - you were pretty sure the "privileged white male" Lacrosse players just had to be guilty of raping the "underprivileged black female" stripper/escort, right?

Why the fuck would you even assume I know what case you're talking about? I'm neither American, nor do I care to listen to what the media has to say on any given rape case.

 

[dystopian]

Everyone except for people who believe in the first amendment and a free press.

Did you not see the analogy to yelling fire in a crowded theater? A paper printing a rape story *as it is developing* does nothing but harm: It harms the victim by throwing more emotional distress on them and it harms the suspect by tarnishing his reputation. There is literally nothing to be gained by the press reporting on it while the case is still ongoing. And to suggest this is curtailing the free speech is clearly absurd, after all the ban would be lifted the moment a verdict was reached. In other words, all the media vultures who are so desperate to shame either the victim or rapist can still do exactly that, they just have to wait until the actual fact are in. Poor oppressed media!

A far better solution would be to forbid investigators etc from releasing any of the names and other information, instead of punishing reporters.

Hi, meet the press; known for the myriad of ways in which they dig up dirt and information and then pimp it out as much as possible in order to pump up circulation. Your solution; which afaik is *already* in effect just about everywhere in the western world, doesn't actually solve the problem.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

The thing that bugs me most about this thread (and threads like it) is while discussing whether or not there is a rape culture in the US, someone will inevitably say (and has said in this thread) something like:

"And in the Middle East and in Africa..."

We're talking about the putative rape culture of the US.

 

[RavenSky]

"If women don't want to get raped they shouldn't X"
"If men don't want to get falsely accused of rape they shouldn't Y"

If she is too drunk to consent, it isn't a "false" accusation of rape - it IS rape. Therefore, don't fuck drunk girls and you don't risk raping them.

There is zero similarity between that and how a woman dresses

 

[RavenSky]

You on the other hand, assume they're all liars until they've jumped through enough hoops that even you can't maintain your irrational disbelief anymore..

when did that ever happen?

 

[dystopian]

when did that ever happen?

I'm being generous in allowing for the possibility of there being a limit to the number of hoops he requires them to jump through.

 

[fromderinside]

Pretty much sums up the attitude of radical feminists, and not only about rape.

You wanna put your toy in the kiddy box ya gotta pay a price. That price includes understanding you aren't the one in charge of making babies or having a good time.

As 'he said-she said' apologists see it its just as important that the man be permitted to actually assault a woman as it is for her to have to carry the result.

Butter on both sides of the bread. Messy, messy, messy.

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If you don't investigate the possibility that the allegation is false then you're being unfair to the accused.

No you aren't. If he says he had consensual sex and she says he didn't he's admitted having sex with the girl. He's put his inflated ego stick into her body possibly risked making her pregnant. End of story.

 

[laughing dog]

And the false allegation of rape risks real rape and death in jail.

Another example of the subculture of "rape apologia" that somehow equates the possibility of rape as equal as an actual rape.

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Most of these apply in prison, plus possibility of being raped while in there. Danger of ending up in prison for rape while innocent of it is a very big deal, no matter how much you try to trivialize it.

it is a big deal, but it is preposterous to equate to the actuality of being raped.

Depends on whether they think they can beat the charges or end up in prison for years or decades. But even without going to prison spending any time in jail and being a subject of a criminal investigation and possibly a trial are not exactly pleasant experiences.

No one said they were. But can you produce any evidence that being raped is a pleasant experience?

Nonsense. I am not trying to trivialize experience of rape (I acknowledge it is horrible).

ou are trivializing the experience of rape regardless of your intentions.

It is you who is trivializing false rape allegations. Reminds me of that feminist Vassar provost who claimed being falsely accused of rape is a good thing for young men to experience.

The point of this non-sequitur of a straw man is...?