Donald the Orange and Family Sued in NY

[bilby]

Trump owes nobody contrition when he did nothing illegal or unethical or wrong.

What colour is the sky on your planet?

 

[bilby]

10≠30

Well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[Elixir]

10≠30

Well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Apparently so.

See? I told you she was an inflatable lawyer!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Whether it’s civil or criminal, the elements of fraud require not just a “false” statement. It requires also that someone be deceived by the false statement. (And it must be a false statement not just an inaccurate or merely mistaken statement.). In short, there must be a victim.

In this AG Letitia James case against Trump, the plaintiff can point to no victim. There were no victims. The case was decided erroneously by the judge from the outset. Some folks may not like this but I’ll stand by it and await the outcome (not of the “trial”) of appellate process. I predict that the verdict and “judgment” are going to be nullified on appeal.

Banks: High value, they charge a lower interest rate. Tax authorities: Low value, pay less taxes.

Either the banks are taking a risk they aren't aware of or the tax authorities (and thus the people) are being cheated.

Whether or not the banks will actually suffer we don't know.

 

[Elixir]

Either the banks are taking a risk they aren't aware of or the tax authorities (and thus the people) are being cheated.

Or both. (As appears to be the case.) but it doesn’t matter, since Trump doesn’t require harm or victims to pursue his criminal career.

 

[TV and credit cards]

If NY law mirrors federal law, not only does there need not be a victim, there need not be any loss. It is the "scheme" to defraud.

Ref: 18 U.S. Code § 1341 - Frauds and swindles

 

[SLD]

Pro tip: Don’t entrust the nuclear codes to a guy who is not allowed to operate a hot dog cart on 53rd and 3rd.

 

[ZiprHead]

10≠30

Well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Apparently so.

See? I told you she was an inflatable lawyer!

I'd kinda' like to see her come hard.

 

[Elixir]

I will come back to provide support for the fact my opinion that the law does (contrary to the judge and you) require that there must be a victim.

FIFY

NY law is as I reported it.

No Sir, it is as written. That’s why your opinion/reporting is not referenced in any judgments.

 

[Elixir]

Trump owes nobody contrition when he did nothing illegal or unethical or wrong.

What colour is the sky on your planet?

He’s referring to April 14th, 1968. That was the last time Hair Furor didn’t do anything illegal, unethical or wrong.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Put it simply: no victim; no fraud. A mistaken estimate is not the same as a deliberate deception. But even in the darkest light, if there is no victim, there is no fraud.

Trump over valued for banks and under valued for taxing authorities. The people of New York were certainly victims of his fraud.

Nope. The people of NY were not victims of any such thing. Valuations tend to be largely subjective, anyway. Even a formal appraisal is not compelling evidence of “value.” Just consider how the judge himself failed to grasp the actual value of Mar A Lago.

Valuations are not largely subjective. While there will be some difference between various appraisers the difference will not be anything like the differences here.

As for Mar A Lago--the value is low because it's got deed restrictions.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The victims in this case was his bank. Banks determine their interest rates and fees based on competition and risk. An inflated PFS, lowers the perceived risk of a loan, allowing a bank to offer a lower interest rate. Loans with very little risk (CD secured loan for example) offer the lowest rates; banks charge rates and fees for higher risk loans.

No bank made any such complaint.

And how would we know? Besides, it's still fraud even if the victim never realizes it was fraud.

 

[ideologyhunter]

The Trump Org. actually has backup plans for having underwater assets. They've already contracted with the concession for scuba tours of Mar-a-Lago beginning in 2065.

 

[Elixir]

As for Mar A Lago--the value is low because it's got deed restrictions.

It's got deed restriction because Donny fucked up. But Donny can't possibly fuck up - EVER.
So he has to lie.

 

[blastula]

A mistaken estimate is not the same as a deliberate deception.

Right. And a decades-long PATTERN of deception is not a mistaken estimate. You were obviously not present for all the testimony.

As Judge Angoran correctly observed:

Judge Engoran did not “correctly” observe the things he claimed. He was just an overly partisan hack.

On the reaction of Trump and his adult sons:
“Their complete lack of contrition and remorse borders on pathological. They are accused only of inflating asset values to make more money. The documents prove this over and over again. This is a venial sin, not a mortal sin. Defendants did not commit murder or arson. They did not rob a bank at gunpoint. Donald Trump is not Bernard Madoff. Yet, defendants are incapable of admitting the error of their ways. Instead, they adopt a ‘See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil’ posture that the evidence belies.”

Trump owes nobody contrition when he did nothing illegal or unethical or wrong.

On being confronted with their misdeeds:
“In order to borrow more and at lower rates, defendants submitted blatantly false financial data to the accountants, resulting in fraudulent financial statements. When confronted at trial with the statements, defendants’ fact and expert witnesses simply denied reality, and defendants failed to accept responsibility or to impose internal controls to prevent future recurrences.”

The claim that Trump and company submitted “blatantly false” data is itself false. Part of the judge’s partisan bias was thereby revealed.

On the severity of the penalty:
“In considering the need for ongoing injunctive relief, this Court is mindful that this action is not the first time the Trump Organization or its related entities has been found to have engaged in corporate malfeasance. Of course, the more evidence there is of defendants’ ongoing propensity to engage in fraud, the more need there is for the Court to impose stricter injunctive relief. This is not defendants’ first rodeo.”

Any claimed prior “findings” of corporate “malfeasance” have nothing to do with whether (or not) he and the company engaged in any in this matter.

On Trump as a witness:
“Overall, Donald Trump rarely responded to the questions asked, and he frequently interjected long, irrelevant speeches on issues far beyond the scope of the trial. His refusal to answer the questions directly, or in some cases, at all, severely compromised his credibility.”

Nonsense. President Trump addressed matters very pertinent to what he was being subjected to. The judge didn’t want any of it mentioned. No surprise there.

I expect this abortion of a verdict and judgment to be overturned largely on the basis of some of what Trump was addressing. The judge perhaps didn’t want those complaints preserved on the future appellate record.

@DeplorableInfidel you would do well to read the transcripts, and ferret out any part where you feel that the judge's findings of fact were in error. Every legal mind I know has expressed confidence that this case was conducted very conservatively with the inevitable appeal (delay) in mind, and is quite airtight. I wonder where you got the idea that the judge was in error.

Oh, wait.... no I don't. It's pretty apparent where you got that notion.

You are in error having been misled not just by the AG and the biased judge but by the sloppy media misreporting the alleged “facts.”

In the immortal words of Ahnold: I’ll be back.

Shorter DI,

 

[Elixir]

Each case is decided on its own merits.

Except this one which is decided on pure politics, right?.
And the appeal he will eventually make - you’ll be crying like a baby when he gets slammed there too.

I gotta wonder what Trump ever did for you, or if you are supporting him out of pure unadulterated altruism because you think he never did anything illegal or wrong, has a very big brain and hires all the best people.
If the latter, you should probably seek help. But I believe it likely that you have - or think you have - some skin in the game.

If that is the case I don’t expect you to own up to it, but will instead just do a runner after taking your dump on this site … which would be a shame. Your best chance to influence anyone here does not lie with your contortions of Trump’s legal quagmire, but a full disclosure of why you would support handing our Country over to a corrupt mob boss. The idea that you don’t know that’s what he is, just doesn’t flush.

 

[Swammerdami]

Trump owes nobody contrition when he did nothing illegal or unethical or wrong.

I assume you're referring specifically to the case before Engoron. The President might have done wrong in other matters.

@DeplorableInfidel -- Please indulge my curiosity: Has President Trump ever done anything illegal, unethical or wrong? If so, please offer some examples.

 

[DeplorableInfidel]

Each case is decided on its own merits.

Except this one which is decided on pure politics, right?.
And the appeal he will eventually make - you’ll be crying like a baby when he gets slammed there too.

I gotta wonder what Trump ever did for you, or if you are supporting him out of pure unadulterated altruism because you think he never did anything illegal or wrong, has a very big brain and hires all the best people.
If the latter, you should probably seek help. But I believe it likely that you have - or think you have - some skin in the game.

If that is the case I don’t expect you to own up to it, but will instead just do a runner after taking your dump on this site … which would be a shame. Your best chance to influence anyone here does not lie with your contortions of Trump’s legal quagmire, but a full disclosure of why you would support handing our Country over to a corrupt mob boss. The idea that you don’t know that’s what he is, just doesn’t flush.

Nah. I see no reason to “cry.” I also don’t expect that the appellate system is as woebegone as the underlying “trials” when it comes to these political persecutions. Moreover, there are levels to the appellate system. So, for instance, if justice cannot be obtained within the NY State courts, there are still other avenues to seek corrections.

 

[Elixir]

DI, you really believe this is just a political persecution? Biden’s doing?
The Don himself couldn’t have said it better.
I take it, then, that DJT has never done anything wrong, illegal or unethical? In your opinion, that is.
Amirite?
If so, I demur. There’s no reasoning with crazy.

there are still other avenues to seek corrections.

Yeah, Mr Navalny found out about that this week. Or did you have some in mind you can actually talk about?