Downward Causation: Useful or Misguided Idea?

[ruby sparks]

There would be no reason for a brain to make a conversion of EM energy to an experience of "red" if it could experience.

The reason could be that it needs to make the 'conversion' before it can have the experience. That would be the reason.

 

[ruby sparks]

We know the brain knows what it is because it can faithfully transform it into "red".

Nothing there to suggest that the brain can't experience red. Have another go.

 

[untermensche]

There would be no reason for a brain to make a conversion of EM energy to an experience of "red" if it could experience.

The reason could be that it needs to make the 'conversion' before it can have the experience. That would be the reason.

That is a waste of energy.

If the brain experiences it can know without using energy to make a conversion.

Life does not expend energy unless it is necessary.

 

[Subsymbolic]

There would be no reason for a brain to make a conversion of EM energy to an experience of "red" if it could experience.

The reason could be that it needs to make the 'conversion' before it can have the experience. That would be the reason.

That is a waste of energy.

If the brain experiences it can know without using energy to make a conversion.

Life does not expend energy unless it is necessary.

Yup, that's why it doesn't convert anything it just does what it does and that happens to feel like something.

No need to invoke experiencing and deciding elves at all.

 

[untermensche]

We know the brain knows what it is because it can faithfully transform it into "red".

Nothing there to suggest that the brain can't experience red. Have another go.

If the brain convert something to "red" it has to be able to recognize that something first.

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That is a waste of energy.

If the brain experiences it can know without using energy to make a conversion.

Life does not expend energy unless it is necessary.

Yup, that's why it doesn't convert anything it just does what it does and that happens to feel like something.

No need to invoke experiencing and deciding elves at all.

Red is not EM energy.

EM energy does not have color.

Color is something a brain creates whole.

There has to be a conversion.

Color is something that exists only after vision exists.

 

[ruby sparks]

If the brain experiences it can know without using energy to make a conversion.

Really? How would you possibly know if that is or isn't correct?

Let me guess, your ghostie-homunculi told you.

 

[ruby sparks]

If the brain convert something to "red" it has to be able to recognize that something first.

Again, how could you possibly know that? What does 'recognize' even mean?

So at this point, you haven't yet come up with a non-gibberish, pulled out of your arse explanation as to why the brain can't be the experiencing thing. Have another go.

 

[ruby sparks]

... that's why it doesn't convert anything it just does what it does and that happens to feel like something.

Yes. Also slightly ironic that someone who proposes a model involving the creation of an intermediary ghost homunculi, and also the creation of things for it to perceive, and some sort of perceiving process between the two, is asking about the energy efficiency of a much simpler model.

 

[untermensche]

If the brain experiences it can know without using energy to make a conversion.

Really? How would you possibly know if that is or isn't correct?

Let me guess, your ghostie-homunculi told you.

It has to know the stimulus is converted to "red" to faithfully convert it to "red".

That means it has to be able to recognize the stimulus for "red" in some way.

If the brain is the thing experiencing it can just experience the stimulus. It does not have to convert it into "red".

"Red" is something for minds. Not brains.

The brain experiencing is a bad unsupportable idea.

It makes all objects of the mind superfluous.

Yet a lot of energy goes into the creation of them. The brain is the servant of the mind. Constantly giving it information.

And the only reason to give a mind information is so it can act on it.

 

[Subsymbolic]

If the brain experiences it can know without using energy to make a conversion.

Really? How would you possibly know if that is or isn't correct?

Let me guess, your ghostie-homunculi told you.

It has to know the stimulus is converted to "red" to faithfully convert it to "red".

That means it has to be able to recognize the stimulus for "red" in some way.

If the brain is the thing experiencing it can just experience the stimulus. It does not have to convert it into "red".

"Red" is something for minds. Not brains.

The brain experiencing is a bad unsupportable idea.

It makes all objects of the mind superfluous.

Yet a lot of energy goes into the creation of them. The brain is the servant of the mind. Constantly giving it information.

And the only reason to give a mind information is so it can act on it.

Nope, I'm clearly too think to understand this. What you need to do is draw a diagram to really get your position across.

 

[ruby sparks]

"It has to know the stimulus is converted to "red" to faithfully convert it to "red".
That means it has to be able to recognize the stimulus for "red" in some way.
If the brain is the thing experiencing it can just experience the stimulus.
It does not have to convert it into "red".
"Red" is something for minds. Not brains.
The brain experiencing is a bad unsupportable idea.
It makes all objects of the mind superfluous.
Yet a lot of energy goes into the creation of them.
The brain is the servant of the mind. Constantly giving it information.
And the only reason to give a mind information is so it can act on it."

Amen



Look, I've made a little hymn, using holy purple as a font colour. I'm going to call it, 'The Little Him hymn'.

 

[bilby]

Damn those Gravity Elves, they'll be going for a pay rise and better working conditions before long. They need to be kept down.

To be fair though, the only way to keep them down is with gravity elf elves. And then you have an infinite regression of gravity elf elf elves, gravity elf elf elf elves, and so on.

And as we all know, infinities cannot possibly exist.

 

[Subsymbolic]

"It has to know the stimulus is converted to "red" to faithfully convert it to "red".
That means it has to be able to recognize the stimulus for "red" in some way.
If the brain is the thing experiencing it can just experience the stimulus.
It does not have to convert it into "red".
"Red" is something for minds. Not brains.
The brain experiencing is a bad unsupportable idea.
It makes all objects of the mind superfluous.
Yet a lot of energy goes into the creation of them.
The brain is the servant of the mind. Constantly giving it information.
And the only reason to give a mind information is so it can act on it."





Amen



Look, I've made a little hymn, using holy purple as a font colour. I'm going to call it, 'The Little Him hymn'.

It gets the colour from its brain or else it gets the hose again.

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Damn those Gravity Elves, they'll be going for a pay rise and better working conditions before long. They need to be kept down.

To be fair though, the only way to keep them down is with gravity elf elves. And then you have an infinite regression of gravity elf elf elves, gravity elf elf elf elves, and so on.

And as we all know, infinities cannot possibly exist.

Because they are an elf and safety issue?

 

[untermensche]

"It has to know the stimulus is converted to "red" to faithfully convert it to "red".
That means it has to be able to recognize the stimulus for "red" in some way.
If the brain is the thing experiencing it can just experience the stimulus.
It does not have to convert it into "red".
"Red" is something for minds. Not brains.
The brain experiencing is a bad unsupportable idea.
It makes all objects of the mind superfluous.
Yet a lot of energy goes into the creation of them.
The brain is the servant of the mind. Constantly giving it information.
And the only reason to give a mind information is so it can act on it."

Amen



Look, I've made a little hymn, using holy purple as a font colour. I'm going to call it, 'The Little Him hymn'.

You can do that to any words.

It is what people do that can't deal with the words.

You clearly have run out of anything to say.

Your "brain experiences" delusion without a shred of evidence to support it is nonsense.

You think biological systems expend energy when they don't have to.

Utter nonsense.

You are clearly using a mind. A brain would know better.

 

[Subsymbolic]

"It has to know the stimulus is converted to "red" to faithfully convert it to "red".
That means it has to be able to recognize the stimulus for "red" in some way.
If the brain is the thing experiencing it can just experience the stimulus.
It does not have to convert it into "red".
"Red" is something for minds. Not brains.
The brain experiencing is a bad unsupportable idea.
It makes all objects of the mind superfluous.
Yet a lot of energy goes into the creation of them.
The brain is the servant of the mind. Constantly giving it information.
And the only reason to give a mind information is so it can act on it."

Amen



Look, I've made a little hymn, using holy purple as a font colour. I'm going to call it, 'The Little Him hymn'.

You can do that to any words.

It is what people do that can't deal with the words.

You clearly have run out of anything to say.

Your "brain experiences" delusion without a shred of evidence to support it is nonsense.

You think biological systems expend energy when they don't have to.

Utter nonsense.

You are clearly using a mind. A brain would know better.

The thing is, we do know how brains, that is just brains, can process information and act on it. That knowledge is entirely objective. It's what we call 'the easy problem of consciousness'. Easy because it's basically solved. In the brain.
The hard problem isn't how we discriminate, detect edges or process light wavelengths. It's why it feels like something to do that. In this discussion so far, choice one is, because that's what it feels like to do all of that. Choice two is that the brain creates a mind, informs it and then hangs around waiting to do what the mind decides. Sure you can believe that for whatever reason you want, but trying to sell it on grounds of parsimony?

Oh and your qualifications? Like the objective consistency thing, the silence is deafening.

 

[untermensche]

The thing is, we do know how brains, that is just brains, can process information and act on it.

Really?

How is the experience of "red" created?

You pretend to know how the brain is creating "red" but you don't have the slightest clue.

If you did you would just show me your model that explains how some brain activity results in experience.

You have no model.

You have talk about grammar and the timing of human guesses about inklings.

 

[WAB]

Damn those Gravity Elves, they'll be going for a pay rise and better working conditions before long. They need to be kept down.

The Gravity elves, like most elves, work for free. They work for the sheer joy of working. There are a few categories of elves who insist on being paid, like Santa's elves, for instance. Santa's elves even have a union.

 

[bilby]

Damn those Gravity Elves, they'll be going for a pay rise and better working conditions before long. They need to be kept down.

The Gravity elves, like most elves, work for free. They work for the sheer joy of working. There are a few categories of elves who insist on being paid, like Santa's elves, for instance. Santa's elves even have a union.

That's because without a union, it's every man for his elf.

 

[WAB]

Or, it's every elf for herself but that's not nearly as funny.

Or is that her elf?

 

[WAB]

Sorry, one more. [and...now for something completely different]

Insofar as it remains to be seen there has still been, despite assiduous efforts from erudite persons across all academic disciplines, nothing which could be described as agreement or at least a nonconfrontational lessening of active hostility, in the realm of intellection or mentation, which is to say within the confines of that which might be called consciousness, or the arena of purely mental activity and operation, howsoever it could be remarked, should one wish to evoke yet another reason or issue about which to cavil and interlocute seemingly inexhaustible permutations of verbal ordnance for the mere sake of maintaining or defending, against common sense and sound judgment, a thesis or hypothesis which under normal circumstances and about which there would be no controversy, it seems prudent at this point to at least, and for the benefit of all parties, to come to terms and to asseverate collectively that there are, at the very least, certain items of general knowledge, which is not to say available only to those with experience in the higher institutions of learning or - lacking formal acquaintance or intercourse with edifices especially manufactured for the intersubjective continuance, analysis, and maintenance of data pertaining to the human species - solely to the industrious autodidact, which ought to be considered axiomatic and incontrovertible, without which any subsequent discourse would by necessity entail the common and perpetually frustrating occurrence of virtually universal confusion and instability of linguistic compatibility and mutually prosperous cooperation among sentient individuals and organizations or affilliations of persons among whom there is at least a general inclination towards providing for themselves and all potentially involved descendents a medium of communication which is not succeptible to the hazardous implementation of ambiguous terminology or dubious parlance.

- Wilbert Morley Handsock, from Navigations of the Meridian Indent, 1879