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Drag Shows

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Yeah, that's nice and all... but that doesn't address the issue of you providing very uncompelling arguments. Toni writes one or two posts and I can see where she is coming from... you... it is just anger.
I am very angry these days.

Plus, I'm completely fed the fuck up with the expectation that women are supposed to be nice, and polite, and respectful, and collaborative, and all sugar and spice. I'm way past that. Being "nice" is a losing proposition, and as far as I'm concerned, it gets women no progress at all. The only thing it accomplishes is to protect the delicate feelings of men. I don't think I should have any obligation to be "nice" and make a "considerate" argument in order to convince men to stop being inconsiderate assholes when it comes to how women are treated.

And I'm also tired up to my eyeballs of having to add "not all men" and "Well, not you dear, you're one of the nice ones" when I'm talking about the behavior of men in general. If you(s) can't get your heads far enough out of your own anuses to grok that a generalized argument isn't a personal attack on you, well, that makes you Derek.

FFS, women never get the kind of delicate and careful treatment from men that we're expected to always display.

Yeah. I AM angry. I'm sitting here watching women's rights being stripped away, watching women's progress being eroded. Something I never dreamed could happen in my lifetime. And I don't even have the solace of being able to blame one party or the other - both the left and the right are eating away at my ability to participate equally in society, and they're coming at it from opposing directions.

I am VERY angry. And I have the RIGHT to be angry. I don't need your permission.
 
Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis escalated his campaign against drag in Florida on Friday, making moves to pull the liquor license from Orlando venue the Plaza Live in the wake of a trumped-up investigation over minors at a local drag show.

The Department of Business and Professional Regulation, Division of Alcoholic Beverages and Tobacco. filed a complaint (quickly shared by numerous conservative websites, first by Florida's Voice) on Friday afternoon against the Milk District venue for hosting a "sexually explicit" drag show that minors were allowed to attend back in late December. Due to this claim of violating Florida statute, the state of Florida intends to strip the venue of its liquor license.

The Plaza Live — besides serving as the performing home base of the Orlando Philharmonic — hosts a robust slate of touring bands, comedians, YouTubers and, yes, drag performers. Why, even the governor himself took part in an event there with Dave Rubin. (Talk about obscene!)
 
Across the United States Republican politicians are seeking to bring in new laws that crack down on drag shows as part of a broader backlash against LGTBQ+ rights sweeping through rightwing parts of America.

Legislators in at least eight states have introduced legislation aiming to restrict or censor the shows, according to a new report from a leading freedom of speech group. A total of 14 bills have been introduced across Arizona, Arkansas, Missouri, Nebraska, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and West Virginia.
Most of the proposed bills include defining a drag performer as someone performing while using dress, makeup and mannerisms associated with a gender other than the one assigned to them at birth.

“These attacks on drag shows and performers strike at the heart of our rights to gather, read and perform together”, Pen said in a statement. “Drag shows are an exercise of artistic and creative expression that should be free from government suppression.”

Ten bills propose to expand the definition of adult or sexually oriented businesses to include any establishment that hosts drag performances – locations that would then fall under common zoning provisions that prohibit adult businesses from being located in the vicinity of schools or residential areas.

Nine include lip-synching within their definitions, and most that the person must be performing for an audience; six explicitly ban minors from viewing or participating in drag performances; and four explicitly ban drag performances at schools or public libraries.
 
Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis escalated his campaign against drag in Florida on Friday, making moves to pull the liquor license from Orlando venue the Plaza Live in the wake of a trumped-up investigation over minors at a local drag show.

The Department of Business and Professional Regulation, Division of Alcoholic Beverages and Tobacco. filed a complaint (quickly shared by numerous conservative websites, first by Florida's Voice) on Friday afternoon against the Milk District venue for hosting a "sexually explicit" drag show that minors were allowed to attend back in late December. Due to this claim of violating Florida statute, the state of Florida intends to strip the venue of its liquor license.
Okay, let me get this straight. This facility held an event that was sexually explicit and allowed minors to attend... maybe even were the target audience.

And the result of presenting (targeting?) minors with lewd / sexually explicit material is taking away their license to sell alcohol?

Am I the only one noticing a problem here? Will the state of Florida respond to a rapist's crime by taking away their driver's license or if someone is guilty of perjury, taking away their library card? It seems the threatened punishment is almost proof that the charges are absolutely bullshit. And when I say "charges", there are no "charges" for what would actually be a criminal act.
 
It's hard to say, actually. The bills floating around in FL are just full to the brim of dumb. I give it even odds that ALL drag shows are considered sexually explicit, regardless of the actual content.

I think FL and TX are in a battle for which state can come up with the most absurd laws to violate civil liberties.
 
It's hard to say, actually. The bills floating around in FL are just full to the brim of dumb. I give it even odds that ALL drag shows are considered sexually explicit, regardless of the actual content.

I think FL and TX are in a battle for which state can come up with the most absurd laws to violate civil liberties.

Sadly, I don't think it's the states. I'm certain that the residents of the states FL and TX aren't the ones doing the political posturing "I'm more extremist than thou!" crap.

Unfortunately for everyone, here in the USA political extremism sells. Bigly. Huuuugely.

Not only, but especially, amongst amongst the "conservative" extremists. Because their political demographics are swirling the drain and they haven't any real answers or proposals to deal with the modern world and modern issues.

They have to go low. Otherwise, they'll just go under.
Tom
 
It's hard to say, actually. The bills floating around in FL are just full to the brim of dumb. I give it even odds that ALL drag shows are considered sexually explicit, regardless of the actual content.
No, that's the problem. If it were actually "Sexual explicit" that'd be an actual violation of the law. But then the municipality or state would actually have to prove it in a court. Hence, liquor license punishment.
 
Across the United States Republican politicians are seeking to bring in new laws that crack down on drag shows as part of a broader backlash against LGTBQ+ rights sweeping through rightwing parts of America.

Legislators in at least eight states have introduced legislation aiming to restrict or censor the shows, according to a new report from a leading freedom of speech group. A total of 14 bills have been introduced across Arizona, Arkansas, Missouri, Nebraska, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and West Virginia.
Most of the proposed bills include defining a drag performer as someone performing while using dress, makeup and mannerisms associated with a gender other than the one assigned to them at birth.

“These attacks on drag shows and performers strike at the heart of our rights to gather, read and perform together”, Pen said in a statement. “Drag shows are an exercise of artistic and creative expression that should be free from government suppression.”

Ten bills propose to expand the definition of adult or sexually oriented businesses to include any establishment that hosts drag performances – locations that would then fall under common zoning provisions that prohibit adult businesses from being located in the vicinity of schools or residential areas.

Nine include lip-synching within their definitions, and most that the person must be performing for an audience; six explicitly ban minors from viewing or participating in drag performances; and four explicitly ban drag performances at schools or public libraries.
This makes the musical "hairspray" illegal, as a classic element of the play is that the mom is always someone "in drag".

It makes the musical "rent" illegal, as one of the characters is trans.

It makes "Romeo and Juliet" illegal (Mercutio appears in a dress for the masquerade, as Queen Mab and delivers a soliloquy).

This is book burning by another name.
 
Hundreds of protesters, including armed white supremacists, and LGBT-community supporters descended on Wadsworth's Memorial Park on Saturday as a humanist group tried to put on a drag queen storytelling event for children.

Toward the end of the four-hour event, two people charged with misdemeanor disorderly conduct were arrested after a series of melees involving pepper spray, the violent use of a flag pole as a weapon and a protester who, according to a witness and a video posted on social media, allegedly pulled a gun and tried to fire the weapon twice.
 
Across the United States Republican politicians are seeking to bring in new laws that crack down on drag shows as part of a broader backlash against LGTBQ+ rights sweeping through rightwing parts of America.

Legislators in at least eight states have introduced legislation aiming to restrict or censor the shows, according to a new report from a leading freedom of speech group. A total of 14 bills have been introduced across Arizona, Arkansas, Missouri, Nebraska, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and West Virginia.
Most of the proposed bills include defining a drag performer as someone performing while using dress, makeup and mannerisms associated with a gender other than the one assigned to them at birth.

“These attacks on drag shows and performers strike at the heart of our rights to gather, read and perform together”, Pen said in a statement. “Drag shows are an exercise of artistic and creative expression that should be free from government suppression.”

Ten bills propose to expand the definition of adult or sexually oriented businesses to include any establishment that hosts drag performances – locations that would then fall under common zoning provisions that prohibit adult businesses from being located in the vicinity of schools or residential areas.

Nine include lip-synching within their definitions, and most that the person must be performing for an audience; six explicitly ban minors from viewing or participating in drag performances; and four explicitly ban drag performances at schools or public libraries.
This makes the musical "hairspray" illegal, as a classic element of the play is that the mom is always someone "in drag".

It makes the musical "rent" illegal, as one of the characters is trans.

It makes "Romeo and Juliet" illegal (Mercutio appears in a dress for the masquerade, as Queen Mab and delivers a soliloquy).

This is book burning by another name.
Cross dressing was a common plot point in many of Shakespeare’s plays. Indeed, during Shakespeare’s time, every play performed was cast entirely with male actors, including female roles. This was true of the Greeks and Roman’s as well: All roles were portrayed by male performers.

Cross dressing was the entire plot of the tv show Bosom Buddies, as well as much of the film Some Like It Hot, Bringing Up Baby and dozens of other movies from the early days of cinema forward. Not to mention multiple Three Stooges and other beloved comedic performances/performers.

This is all just ‘virtue signaling,’ minus, of course, all virtue.
 
Across the United States Republican politicians are seeking to bring in new laws that crack down on drag shows as part of a broader backlash against LGTBQ+ rights sweeping through rightwing parts of America.

Legislators in at least eight states have introduced legislation aiming to restrict or censor the shows, according to a new report from a leading freedom of speech group. A total of 14 bills have been introduced across Arizona, Arkansas, Missouri, Nebraska, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and West Virginia.
Most of the proposed bills include defining a drag performer as someone performing while using dress, makeup and mannerisms associated with a gender other than the one assigned to them at birth.

“These attacks on drag shows and performers strike at the heart of our rights to gather, read and perform together”, Pen said in a statement. “Drag shows are an exercise of artistic and creative expression that should be free from government suppression.”

Ten bills propose to expand the definition of adult or sexually oriented businesses to include any establishment that hosts drag performances – locations that would then fall under common zoning provisions that prohibit adult businesses from being located in the vicinity of schools or residential areas.

Nine include lip-synching within their definitions, and most that the person must be performing for an audience; six explicitly ban minors from viewing or participating in drag performances; and four explicitly ban drag performances at schools or public libraries.
This makes the musical "hairspray" illegal, as a classic element of the play is that the mom is always someone "in drag".

It makes the musical "rent" illegal, as one of the characters is trans.

It makes "Romeo and Juliet" illegal (Mercutio appears in a dress for the masquerade, as Queen Mab and delivers a soliloquy).

This is book burning by another name.
Cross dressing was a common plot point in many of Shakespeare’s plays. Indeed, during Shakespeare’s time, every play performed was cast entirely with male actors, including female roles. This was true of the Greeks and Roman’s as well: All roles were portrayed by male performers.

Cross dressing was the entire plot of the tv show Bosom Buddies, as well as much of the film Some Like It Hot, Bringing Up Baby and dozens of other movies from the early days of cinema forward. Not to mention multiple Three Stooges and other beloved comedic performances/performers.

This is all just ‘virtue signaling,’ minus, of course, all virtue.
Dog whistling. It's saying "let's make them our next victims" without saying any of those words in a way most people under 30 would not recognize consciously, unless winked and nudged at until they winked and nudged back and quit needing it.
 
Defend Our Kids TX

So group of busy body Karens and Kevins have created a website where scheduled drag show can be reported, and presumably interfered with.

Be a real shame if they were flooded with false reports of scheduled shows, maybe at private parties at the homes of right-wing christian nationalists and politicians. Or church events at churches that practice politics but still take their tax benefits.

Or use your imagination.
Why would a drag queen want to perform in front of children?
Why would a clown want to perform in front of children?

Why would a dancer want to perform in front of children?

Why would a storyteller want to perform in front of children?
To lure innocent young children into their skirt wearing lifestyle?

View attachment 41452
Allow me to sing the praises of the kilt, a masculine garment of great simplicity and practicality. It is free from the trappings of excess ornamentation and effeminate affectation, and offers numerous advantages over the common trousers. From a physiological standpoint, the kilt is the most rational form of lower garment a man could possibly use for the daily tasks of life, particularly if one is an outdoorsman.

It is an eminently practical piece of attire, well-calculated to preserve the health and promote the comfort of those who wear it, offering protection from the elements, facilitating movement through marshes and rivers, promoting cleanliness with greater ease, and so on.

In contrast, the common trousers are the source of a mild but perpetual discomfort for all men, save for those with micropenises or nonexistent genitalia (as in the case of castration). The kilt, however, is not prone to such discomforts, & does not hinder the mobility and agility of the wearer.

From its use in the military, we know that kilt-wearers are not only cleaner & more agile, but also enjoy better health and hygiene. The kilts allow for ease of movement and prevent abdominal problems.

It has even been shown that kilt-wearers have a higher sperm count and testosterone level than those who wear trousers.

The mere sight of the kilt among Highland soldiers of Scotland was known to strike fear into the hearts of their enemies.

But beyond its practical benefits, the kilt also possesses many æsthetic and intangible advantages. Its simplicity and relative lack of ornamentation only adds to its æsthetic charm and picturesque beauty. The kilt helps to keep alive ancient traditions and national pride, making it a truly magnificent garb indeed.
 
The kilt is an article of clothing that is as simple as it is practical, devoid of the excess ornamentation and adornment that one so often associates with trousers. It is for those who value simplicity, comfort, and practicality above all else.

It must be emphasised that trousers, in their very essence, are a feminine garment


Indeed a fondness for "fancy pants" and suchlike frippery is oftenest found among effeminates, Italians (mama's boys), & of course women.

If a man prefers trousers over kilts & robes, it may be because he is an effeminate with very small genitals, & he wants to wear something form-fitting, to eccentuate his legs & bottom, hoping to prance around in his fancy pants, & attract the attention of some fanciful paramour.

However, for those of us who embrace the simplicity and comfort of kilts, chlamyses, chitons, togas, robes, and the like, such considerations are of little import. We value practicality & tradition, & the preservation of ancient customs & national pride, above all else. So you may keep your fancy pants, if you will. We shall stick to our traditional garbs, comfortable & unadorned, secure in the knowledge that it suits us well.

If your goal is to prance round till you swept away by the man of your dreams, then by all means wear trousers.

Indeed aside from their very particular use in horsemanship, trousers were worn oftenest by women and rarely worn by men till relatively recently.

In the few traditional societies where trousers were known to exist, they were primarily worn by women, while men wore flowing robes, kilts, togas, and the like.

So, gentlemen, if you seek to embrace a traditional and manly form of attire, I implore you to forsake the trousers and embrace the kilt. You shall find that it is as practical as it is aesthetically pleasing, and that it helps to perpetuate ancient traditions and national pride.
 
So this topic is for sure one in which if an event happens that makes the the liberal side look bad it will likely not be covered by that side of the media. And then when it is covered by the conservative media it will be discounted by liberals, sometimes discounted BECAUSE it was covered by conservatives.

HOWEVER, this tribalism is just as bad and sometimes worse in the other direction.
 
There's nothing wrong with wearing kilts.

There is something slightly insecure about talking about wearing kilts and how manly it is.

Perhaps this is a sign of one of those little internal reassurances of those who have "doubts" about how manly they are, and if they are playing the game right. Maybe creating this false, but crisply painted, dichotomy is about convincing oneself that they are really sure about being on the "right" side of it. Of course there is no "right" side, and it isn't really a dichotomous situation, for all of seems like it to some.

Personally, my thought is that if you have doubts, you shouldn't just bury them, but you should look full faced into them, and accept what knowledge and understanding they lead to, even if that is an understanding that you were wrong and the only thing you know now is that what you used to know is at least so wrong.

Don't wear a kilt because it's "manly" whatever "manly" is, rather wear a kilt because it is comfortable and you like how you look in it.

As to repoman: liberals know how to flush a toilet when it's full of shit. The reason why it's not a big deal when some drag queen has an issue is that when liberals see the turd in the bowl, they flush, take care of the problem, and make sure no more problems arise.

When conservatives see the turd in the bowl they leave it there stinking while claiming it is not a turd, leading to ongoing recognitions that not only are republicans doing nothing about the stinking shit piled in the bowl, they are now lying about there being shit in their toilet at all, or about who put it there.

All they have to do is flush the bowl full of shit when they create it, but instead roll on the floor and claim persecution for having to do anything about bad actors among them.

Some liberal molests a kid? Out, gone faster than the media can say "who was ____?" Some conservatives molest kids? Better move them over to the next district, or better yet so nothing, since the voters don't care.
 
Across the United States Republican politicians are seeking to bring in new laws that crack down on drag shows as part of a broader backlash against LGTBQ+ rights sweeping through rightwing parts of America.

Legislators in at least eight states have introduced legislation aiming to restrict or censor the shows, according to a new report from a leading freedom of speech group. A total of 14 bills have been introduced across Arizona, Arkansas, Missouri, Nebraska, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and West Virginia.
Most of the proposed bills include defining a drag performer as someone performing while using dress, makeup and mannerisms associated with a gender other than the one assigned to them at birth.

“These attacks on drag shows and performers strike at the heart of our rights to gather, read and perform together”, Pen said in a statement. “Drag shows are an exercise of artistic and creative expression that should be free from government suppression.”

Ten bills propose to expand the definition of adult or sexually oriented businesses to include any establishment that hosts drag performances – locations that would then fall under common zoning provisions that prohibit adult businesses from being located in the vicinity of schools or residential areas.

Nine include lip-synching within their definitions, and most that the person must be performing for an audience; six explicitly ban minors from viewing or participating in drag performances; and four explicitly ban drag performances at schools or public libraries.
This makes the musical "hairspray" illegal, as a classic element of the play is that the mom is always someone "in drag".

It makes the musical "rent" illegal, as one of the characters is trans.

It makes "Romeo and Juliet" illegal (Mercutio appears in a dress for the masquerade, as Queen Mab and delivers a soliloquy).

This is book burning by another name.
Cross dressing was a common plot point in many of Shakespeare’s plays. Indeed, during Shakespeare’s time, every play performed was cast entirely with male actors, including female roles. This was true of the Greeks and Roman’s as well: All roles were portrayed by male performers.

Cross dressing was the entire plot of the tv show Bosom Buddies, as well as much of the film Some Like It Hot, Bringing Up Baby and dozens of other movies from the early days of cinema forward. Not to mention multiple Three Stooges and other beloved comedic performances/performers.

This is all just ‘virtue signaling,’ minus, of course, all virtue.
Dog whistling. It's saying "let's make them our next victims" without saying any of those words in a way most people under 30 would not recognize consciously, unless winked and nudged at until they winked and nudged back and quit needing it.
Well, my point was/is that the idea of cross dressing has existed at least as long as the cornerstones of so called Western Civilization. Many civilizations/societies recognized more than just male and female. Some still do. The rest should get on board.

That said, upthread, Emily Lake has a good point: It is indeed women who are expected to simply give ground to allow people who were born with male bodies to....not join us but to push us aside and assert dominion over spaces that simply did not exist for women 100 years ago. And are told how terrible we are if we don't love it.

I understand that those of us who remember when girls and women were not allowed to play competitive sports, or to have access to locker rooms, coaches, training, respect, birth control, abortion, mortgages, credit cards or credit in our own name are dying out now. We're old. We get it. I don't think you do, though. I don't think men get it at all. Or they do and are just fine with the rights of women and girls being eroded. Maybe then we'll just fade into the woodwork and emerge only to meet the needs of men, whatever they might be.
 
Across the United States Republican politicians are seeking to bring in new laws that crack down on drag shows as part of a broader backlash against LGTBQ+ rights sweeping through rightwing parts of America.

Legislators in at least eight states have introduced legislation aiming to restrict or censor the shows, according to a new report from a leading freedom of speech group. A total of 14 bills have been introduced across Arizona, Arkansas, Missouri, Nebraska, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and West Virginia.
Most of the proposed bills include defining a drag performer as someone performing while using dress, makeup and mannerisms associated with a gender other than the one assigned to them at birth.

“These attacks on drag shows and performers strike at the heart of our rights to gather, read and perform together”, Pen said in a statement. “Drag shows are an exercise of artistic and creative expression that should be free from government suppression.”

Ten bills propose to expand the definition of adult or sexually oriented businesses to include any establishment that hosts drag performances – locations that would then fall under common zoning provisions that prohibit adult businesses from being located in the vicinity of schools or residential areas.

Nine include lip-synching within their definitions, and most that the person must be performing for an audience; six explicitly ban minors from viewing or participating in drag performances; and four explicitly ban drag performances at schools or public libraries.
This makes the musical "hairspray" illegal, as a classic element of the play is that the mom is always someone "in drag".

It makes the musical "rent" illegal, as one of the characters is trans.

It makes "Romeo and Juliet" illegal (Mercutio appears in a dress for the masquerade, as Queen Mab and delivers a soliloquy).

This is book burning by another name.
Cross dressing was a common plot point in many of Shakespeare’s plays. Indeed, during Shakespeare’s time, every play performed was cast entirely with male actors, including female roles. This was true of the Greeks and Roman’s as well: All roles were portrayed by male performers.

Cross dressing was the entire plot of the tv show Bosom Buddies, as well as much of the film Some Like It Hot, Bringing Up Baby and dozens of other movies from the early days of cinema forward. Not to mention multiple Three Stooges and other beloved comedic performances/performers.

This is all just ‘virtue signaling,’ minus, of course, all virtue.
Dog whistling. It's saying "let's make them our next victims" without saying any of those words in a way most people under 30 would not recognize consciously, unless winked and nudged at until they winked and nudged back and quit needing it.
Well, my point was/is that the idea of cross dressing has existed at least as long as the cornerstones of so called Western Civilization. Many civilizations/societies recognized more than just male and female. Some still do. The rest should get on board.

That said, upthread, Emily Lake has a good point: It is indeed women who are expected to simply give ground to allow people who were born with male bodies to....not join us but to push us aside and assert dominion over spaces that simply did not exist for women 100 years ago. And are told how terrible we are if we don't love it.

I understand that those of us who remember when girls and women were not allowed to play competitive sports, or to have access to locker rooms, coaches, training, respect, birth control, abortion, mortgages, credit cards or credit in our own name are dying out now. We're old. We get it. I don't think you do, though. I don't think men get it at all. Or they do and are just fine with the rights of women and girls being eroded. Maybe then we'll just fade into the woodwork and emerge only to meet the needs of men, whatever they might be.
Toni, you just explained how the spaces didn't exist anywhere for you, and came to exist, much of it in your lifetime, and then transition into discussing the erosion of your rights?

And I don't think you're a terrible person for not liking things.

People become terrible people when they are dicks about the things they don't like.

Do you think I see any better than you describe what you do for yourself, for me, in the Handmaid's Tale that the QOP is constructing, or that I haven't in my life lost my job explicitly because of my sexuality?

I do absolutely remember the bad old days, seeing as it's still the bad old days for some folks, rather than the mediocre modern days.
 
Across the United States Republican politicians are seeking to bring in new laws that crack down on drag shows as part of a broader backlash against LGTBQ+ rights sweeping through rightwing parts of America.

Legislators in at least eight states have introduced legislation aiming to restrict or censor the shows, according to a new report from a leading freedom of speech group. A total of 14 bills have been introduced across Arizona, Arkansas, Missouri, Nebraska, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and West Virginia.
Most of the proposed bills include defining a drag performer as someone performing while using dress, makeup and mannerisms associated with a gender other than the one assigned to them at birth.

“These attacks on drag shows and performers strike at the heart of our rights to gather, read and perform together”, Pen said in a statement. “Drag shows are an exercise of artistic and creative expression that should be free from government suppression.”

Ten bills propose to expand the definition of adult or sexually oriented businesses to include any establishment that hosts drag performances – locations that would then fall under common zoning provisions that prohibit adult businesses from being located in the vicinity of schools or residential areas.

Nine include lip-synching within their definitions, and most that the person must be performing for an audience; six explicitly ban minors from viewing or participating in drag performances; and four explicitly ban drag performances at schools or public libraries.
This makes the musical "hairspray" illegal, as a classic element of the play is that the mom is always someone "in drag".

It makes the musical "rent" illegal, as one of the characters is trans.

It makes "Romeo and Juliet" illegal (Mercutio appears in a dress for the masquerade, as Queen Mab and delivers a soliloquy).

This is book burning by another name.
Cross dressing was a common plot point in many of Shakespeare’s plays. Indeed, during Shakespeare’s time, every play performed was cast entirely with male actors, including female roles. This was true of the Greeks and Roman’s as well: All roles were portrayed by male performers.

Cross dressing was the entire plot of the tv show Bosom Buddies, as well as much of the film Some Like It Hot, Bringing Up Baby and dozens of other movies from the early days of cinema forward. Not to mention multiple Three Stooges and other beloved comedic performances/performers.

This is all just ‘virtue signaling,’ minus, of course, all virtue.
Dog whistling. It's saying "let's make them our next victims" without saying any of those words in a way most people under 30 would not recognize consciously, unless winked and nudged at until they winked and nudged back and quit needing it.
Well, my point was/is that the idea of cross dressing has existed at least as long as the cornerstones of so called Western Civilization. Many civilizations/societies recognized more than just male and female. Some still do. The rest should get on board.

That said, upthread, Emily Lake has a good point: It is indeed women who are expected to simply give ground to allow people who were born with male bodies to....not join us but to push us aside and assert dominion over spaces that simply did not exist for women 100 years ago. And are told how terrible we are if we don't love it.

I understand that those of us who remember when girls and women were not allowed to play competitive sports, or to have access to locker rooms, coaches, training, respect, birth control, abortion, mortgages, credit cards or credit in our own name are dying out now. We're old. We get it. I don't think you do, though. I don't think men get it at all. Or they do and are just fine with the rights of women and girls being eroded. Maybe then we'll just fade into the woodwork and emerge only to meet the needs of men, whatever they might be.
Toni, you just explained how the spaces didn't exist anywhere for you, and came to exist, much of it in your lifetime, and then transition into discussing the erosion of your rights?

And I don't think you're a terrible person for not liking things.

People become terrible people when they are dicks about the things they don't like.

Do you think I see any better than you describe what you do for yourself, for me, in the Handmaid's Tale that the QOP is constructing, or that I haven't in my life lost my job explicitly because of my sexuality?

I am aware, as well as a straight person can be, of the bigotry, hostility and discrimination against gay/queer people and I am thrilled with the progress and acceptance gained by this group—and all the other non-cis, non-straight, not white not male people have achieved.

What it seems to me is that it is women who are expected to stand aside and let individuals who grew up with the advantages of being considered make in addition to the burdens of not fitting into that particular box take over whatever spaces women have carved out for themselves. Even if it erodes our physical safety.

All I really want is a scenario where girls and women can feel comfortable and safe and be comfortable and safe in spaces that are marked women. I want the same safety and comfort for everyone, including and especially everyone in the LGBTQIA community. And for cis-straight men. And people of every race and color and culture and religion, including no religion.

It *feels* as though women are being expected to give up rights we have just barely achieved. Because cis-straight men are, best case scenario: selfish jerks. Too often violent misogynistic homophobia rapists.

As a practical matter, what do we tell our daughters when they are confronted by a make appearing body in the women’s shower? That’s a serious question.

How are female victims of sexual assault supposed to feel safe? Again, a serious question.
 
What it seems to me is that it is women who are expected to stand aside and let individuals who grew up with the advantages of being considered make in addition to the burdens of not fitting into that particular box take over whatever spaces women have carved out for themselves
I guess you lose sight of the fact that nobody is stopping anyone of any genital persuasion from dressing up in lingerie and a complex bodice, and dancing in front of people, as does happen at some drag shows.

Many people are not interested in seeing women there, in part because the idea is to NOT objectify in a stereotypical sex-essentialist way, and also because some people like how watching people they know to be born with penises turns them on.

I don't think turning on gay folks was ever a space women owned in any respect, nor have any desert to, penis or no.

Then, some gay folks are pretty penis-centric. I know a few folks without balls who would classify themselves as gay men but wouldn't get any play with a lot of other gay men I know.
 
What it seems to me is that it is women who are expected to stand aside and let individuals who grew up with the advantages of being considered make in addition to the burdens of not fitting into that particular box take over whatever spaces women have carved out for themselves
I guess you lose sight of the fact that nobody is stopping anyone of any genital persuasion from dressing up in lingerie and a complex bodice, and dancing in front of people, as does happen at some drag shows.

Many people are not interested in seeing women there, in part because the idea is to NOT objectify in a stereotypical sex-essentialist way, and also because some people like how watching people they know to be born with penises turns them on.

I don't think turning on gay folks was ever a space women owned in any respect, nor have any desert to, penis or no.

Then, some gay folks are pretty penis-centric. I know a few folks without balls who would classify themselves as gay men but wouldn't get any play with a lot of other gay men I know.
Nope. Definitely cognizant of the fact that people want to dress up in lingerie and bodices (and skirts, dresses, push up bras, wigs, false eyelashes, tons of make up, etc.) and some people want to see that and some people want to shut that down completely.

Also have not missed the fact that sometimes and on some levels, it's pretty anti-woman.
 
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