EAC: We're doing a good job!

[Lion IRC]

For all you Bearers of False Witness out there, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy says no such thing.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atheism-agnosticism/



It says this right at the beginning, so it takes a willful intent to demean and condemn in order to read this entry and think a partial-sentence quote is in any way honest or truthful.

On this view, there would have been atheists even if no theists ever existed—they just wouldn’t have been called “atheists”.

The entry carries on for 30 pages, explaining what is the effect of choosing different definitions on the user's ability to actually understand atheism, and how cutting it short will leave you WRONG about atheism.


We expect this from christians, who regularly choose to bear false witness against atheists in order to demean and judge and condemn them by dishonestly calling atheism willful disobedience. And while we expect this based on centuries of repeated behavior, it does not erase the fact that it is bearing false witness to do it.

It is a wonder to behold christians sinning in order to accuse us of sin, and it conclusively demonstrates the destructive nature of cults.

Meanwhile you, Lion, have been told by real live people that your definition of us is not accurate and not true, yet you continue to repeat it, bearing false witness for Jesus. God sees you, Lion. He never knew you.

Atheism means simply, having no belief in God or gods. It does not matter if that atheist has bad reasons for not believing in god(s), very good reasons for not believing in god(s) or offers no reasons at all for not believing in god(s). It is that simple. Anything else is bullshit.

I know why atheists want to change the definition of the word atheism so that it means something along the lines of non-stamp collecting. That's agnosticism. Agnostics have zero burden of proof. That's cool.

If you don't like me using the classical definition of atheism that's okay I will use William Lane Craig's substitute word 'schmatheism' - which means the belief that no God/gods exist.

And I will use Richard Dawkins very sensible spectrum of theistic probability.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_of_theistic_probability

 

[Rhea]

I know why atheists want to change the definition of the word atheism so that it means something along the lines of non-stamp collecting.

After you have just been shown that this is in no way a “change” of definition, you come right back and bear false witness again, so that you can finish your sentence with condemnation. Is it because you NEED to step on the necks of others to sustain your religious self-worth? Nothing about your faith feels good except how it can let you compete for a status that you crave?

Atheists don’t need a status or a rank to feel good. It’s why we don’t have mega churches.


When you willfully bear false witness, We see you.
What hatred and fear of your neighbors on this planet.
This is the damage that religion does. This is the dark price of Pascal’s wager. This is what takes a good life, a good planet, and makes it ugly.
This is why other christians are always having to make excuses for why christianity doesn’t seem to work. Blatantly saying false things in order to try to demean and judge and other.

If there were a Satan, he would love this. He would love you.

 

[southernhybrid]

I agree that there is no atheist movement and most atheists have other things to do besides getting involved with atheist activism. I do sometimes attend Freethought meetings. I do it for socializing. I live in the heart of the American Bible Belt. Sometimes it gets tiresome having to listen to people constantly use religious terminology around me. So, it can be a nice change to socialize with other non believers.

I once had an encounter with a theist at a party at my bro in laws home many years ago. It was around Xmas and the man said he had attended so many seasonal parties, blah blah blah. I agreed with him and said I had attended an atheist meetup just before this party. He got angry and asked me why did atheists have to get together. I told him that we were humans just like everyone else and sometimes we enjoyed the company of other people who shared some of our beliefs. Can you imagine how a believer would react if I had asked him in an angry tone, why do Christians have to get together! Our local group gets together for dinner once a month. We rarely discuss religion. We talk about everything you can imagine. Sometimes we discuss how difficult it can be to live in an area that is flooded with Christians who sometimes are preach and judgmental etc.

Then too, there are groups that support various secular philosophies. Sometimes atheists enjoy lectures about science, philosophy, history, or social science. I used to be active in two Atlanta groups, but rarely attend anymore due to the traffic from here to there. We had a large assortment of speakers on various topics. I was even a speaker twice. We aren't trying to convert anyone. We just tend to be curious people who enjoy learning about a wide variety of topics.


Yes. It's often said that getting atheists to agree on anything is like herding cats. But, is this really so different than herding Christians? There are just. more Christians where I live so they usually have bigger groups. There are about 70 churches in my small city. They consist of numerous sects. Some of them only have a handful of members. Only one is Catholic. Some are huge. Why do Christians need so many different sects if they all believe the same things? Apparently they don't all believe the same things. They don't all interpret their Bible in the same way. I've discovered from living her for 21 years, that most Christians seem to love their church communities more than they seem to care about their beliefs. They love having friends who think like they do. They love having opportunities to do social things. Isn't that what it's really all about? Don't most humans enjoy having friends and a social life? If you don't fit in with religion, why is it wrong to have a social outlet with other atheists?

You seem very judgmental Lion. Your Bible tells you not to judge others. Don't try to distort that, like some Christians do. You aren't supposed to judge other people. In your belief system, only your god can do that. So, instead of judging us and making up shit about us, why not simply try to learn from us. Why not simply explain why you feel the need to have a religion in your life? That would add to the discussion.

 

[Learner]

You seem very judgmental Lion. Your Bible tells you not to judge others. Don't try to distort that, like some Christians do. You aren't supposed to judge other people. In your belief system, only your god can do that. So, instead of judging us and making up shit about us, why not simply try to learn from us. Why not simply explain why you feel the need to have a religion in your life? That would add to the discussion.

Not being judgmental. I would just like to say from this particluar paragraph you posted - from the theists understanding is all I'm saying. We can be judgmental in such things as people commtting crimes, making up rumours and also be judgmental in other Christians who do false preachings. We can't according to the bible, be judgemental of people if we are doing the very same-thing - meaning hypocisy (first take out the beam from one's own eye).

 

[Keith&Co.]

You seem very judgmental Lion. Your Bible tells you not to judge others. Don't try to distort that, like some Christians do. You aren't supposed to judge other people. In your belief system, only your god can do that. So, instead of judging us and making up shit about us, why not simply try to learn from us. Why not simply explain why you feel the need to have a religion in your life? That would add to the discussion.

Not being judgmental. I would just like to say from this particluar paragraph you posted - from the theists POV is all I'm saying. We can be judgmental in such things as people commtting crimes and also be judgmental in other Christians who do false preachings. We can't according to the bible, be judgemental of people if we are doing the same thing - meaning hypocisy.

Really? Cuz the Books seems pretty clear that it's a big NO on judging. Who tells you there are places and conditions where it's okay?

 

[Learner]

double post

 

[Learner]

You seem very judgmental Lion. Your Bible tells you not to judge others. Don't try to distort that, like some Christians do. You aren't supposed to judge other people. In your belief system, only your god can do that. So, instead of judging us and making up shit about us, why not simply try to learn from us. Why not simply explain why you feel the need to have a religion in your life? That would add to the discussion.

Not being judgmental. I would just like to say from this particluar paragraph you posted - from the theists POV is all I'm saying. We can be judgmental in such things as people commtting crimes and also be judgmental in other Christians who do false preachings. We can't according to the bible, be judgemental of people if we are doing the same thing - meaning hypocisy.

Really? Cuz the Books seems pretty clear that it's a big NO on judging. Who tells you there are places and conditions where it's okay?

For example...You need two witnesses or more if there are accusations against someone, in order to be judged accordingly... making judgements is in the bible.

Tying with " whoever is without sin cast the first stone" ... if you're going to judge someone, don't be a hypocrit!

 

[Keith&Co.]

Really? Cuz the Books seems pretty clear that it's a big NO on judging. Who tells you there are places and conditions where it's okay?

For example...You need two witnesses or more if there are accusations against someone, in order to be judged accordingly... making judgements is in the bible.

yes, to convict for specific actions. Crimes.
Does Lion find two witnesses before he judges on someone's motives? Intentions? How would you find an eyewitness to whether i really believe in God, but suppress the knowledge?
Is that even comparable to picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

Tying with " whoever is without sin cast the first stone" ...don't be a hypocrit!

Since we are all sinners, isn't that passage saying DON'T JUDGE OTHERS AT ALL?
Seriously, that has been my iunderstanding since i was a believer. The whole point of the tale is that no one on Earth is able to judge another, morally. Because we're all pond scum. Even if the guy next to you is a gay prostitute with a donkey act and a chicken harem he rents out, don't think or act like you're any better than him.... your life may be more comfortable, and obviously his tax accountant uses more euphemisms than yours, but tgat doesn't mean you can judge HIM. Right?
Seriously, i am asking. Explain why you would think the 'cast tge first stone' verse says You can judge someone.

 

[Learner]

yes, to convict for specific actions. Crimes.
Does Lion find two witnesses before he judges on someone's motives? Intentions? How would you find an eyewitness to whether i really believe in God, but suppress the knowledge?
Is that even comparable to picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

Lion doesn't need witnesses for motives or intentions, unless for example, he accuses Dawkins of a crime where an action is needed to be taken to address it.

Tying with " whoever is without sin cast the first stone" ...don't be a hypocrit!

Since we are all sinners, isn't that passage saying DON'T JUDGE OTHERS AT ALL?
Seriously, that has been my iunderstanding since i was a believer. The whole point of the tale is that no one on Earth is able to judge another, morally. Because we're all pond scum. Even if the guy next to you is a gay prostitute with a donkey act and a chicken harem he rents out, don't think or act like you're any better than him.... your life may be more comfortable, and obviously his tax accountant uses more euphemisms than yours, but tgat doesn't mean you can judge HIM. Right?
Seriously, i am asking. Explain why you would think the 'cast tge first stone' verse says You can judge someone.

Everyone gets judgemental about all sorts people by what they see or by what's percieved by their actions or how they appear ... thats normal. (keep it to yourself ... is often suggested)

I notice the very same postman doesn't post my letters throught the letterbox and instead leaves it around the door where my letters could be picked up by someone else. That particular postman certainly get's a judgemental opinion from me - that he is: lazy or not really caring about his the job or the recipients.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Lion doesn't need witnesses for motives or intentions, unless for example, he accuses Dawkins of a crime where an action is needed to be taken to address it.

but that was your defense when Lion was accused of being judgmental....a verse about getting two witnesses before you convict.
So how does that dupport Lion being judgmental when he insists that everyone kniws God is real, but choose to pretend to atheism?

Everyone gets judgemental about all sorts people by what they see or by what's percieved by their actions or how they appear ... thats normal. (keep it to yourself ... is often suggested)

that's a defense?
Jesus says DO NOT, but you can because EVERYONE DOES.

I notice the very same postman doesn't post my letters throught the letterbox and instead leaves it around the door where my letters could be picked up by someone else. That particular postman certainly get's a judgemental opinion from me - that he is: lazy or not really caring about his the job or the recipients.

Okay. Completely different question. How do you think thst the 'Cast the first stone' passage means Jesus is okay with you (and Lion) judging people?
Because you did offer thsst passage in defense.

 

[Lion IRC]

You seem very judgmental Lion. Your Bible tells you not to judge others. Don't try to distort that, like some Christians do. You aren't supposed to judge other people. In your belief system, only your god can do that. So, instead of judging us and making up shit about us, why not simply try to learn from us. Why not simply explain why you feel the need to have a religion in your life? That would add to the discussion.

Not being judgmental. I would just like to say from this particular paragraph you posted - from the theists understanding is all I'm saying. We can be judgmental in such things as people commtting crimes, making up rumours and also be judgmental in other Christians who do false preachings. We can't according to the bible, be judgemental of people if we are doing the very same-thing - meaning hypocisy (first take out the beam from one's own eye).

The irony here is that I'm cutting and pasting from quotes by atheists about atheism and I get called judgmental.

These aren't MY opinions about atheism - those are atheists' opinions about atheism.

That's what THEY say they believe and I take them at their word. If some individual 'atheist' wants to claim a mere lack of belief - agnosticism - to describe their personal version of non-theism that's fine. We live in an age where people get to call themselves whatever they want.

The Stanford Encyclopedia provides a concise explanation of why atheism is not merely a lack of belief about God/gods.

Theist - I think God exists.
Atheist - I think God doesn't exist.
Rhea - I need 30 pages of waffle and minutiae to describe all the nuance of what I'm not sure I don't believe.

 

[Rhea]

Theist - I think God exists.
Atheist - I think God doesn't exist.
Rhea - I need 30 pages of waffle and minutiae to describe all the nuance of what I'm not sure I don't believe.

bearing false witness in order demean, judge and condemn.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Theist - I think God exists.
Atheist - I think God doesn't exist.
Rhea - I need 30 pages of waffle and minutiae to describe all the nuance of what I'm not sure I don't believe.

bearing false witness in order demean, judge and condemn.

Seriously.

<----Atheist. I don't think GODS exist, but i cannot speak for everyone that uses the label to self-identify, nor for everyone who meets one of the many definitions of the term whether they use it or not.

But, sure, let's pretend i am only talking about one paragraph out of the thirty pages so Lion can feel morally and intellectually superior-like.


I guess Lion (and Learner) have never had a boss, client, or customer ask a yes/no or either/or question that took ten minutes to answer to prevent them getting the wrong idea from a simplistic reply to a complex issue.

 

[atrib]

Theist - I think God exists.
Atheist - I think God doesn't exist.
Rhea - I need 30 pages of waffle and minutiae to describe all the nuance of what I'm not sure I don't believe.

bearing false witness in order demean, judge and condemn.

All he does these days is taunt people with falsehoods. In this instance, he continues to assert a position about atheism that has been contradicted by several posters who are actually atheists, and his claims/citations have been demonstrated to be untrue. But he is not willing to concede the point and move on, because this is a game to him. Small minded and mean spirited are the thoughts that come to my mind when I read his posts.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Atheism means simply, having no belief in God or gods. It does not matter if that atheist has bad reasons for not believing in god(s), very good reasons for not believing in god(s) or offers no reasons at all for not believing in god(s). It is that simple. Anything else is bullshit.

I know why atheists want to change the definition of the word atheism so that it means something along the lines of non-stamp collecting. That's agnosticism. Agnostics have zero burden of proof. That's cool.

If you don't like me using the classical definition of atheism that's okay I will use William Lane Craig's substitute word 'schmatheism' - which means the belief that no God/gods exist.

And I will use Richard Dawkins very sensible spectrum of theistic probability.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_of_theistic_probability

Again it is simple. Atheists do not believe in God. An atheist is an atheist if they do not believe in God with good reasons, bad reasons and no reasons at all. Anything else is wrong. No matter who wrote it or where anything other than this simple definition.

The Judeo-Christian-Islamic God has enough problems within their perspective definitions to demonstrate that God does not and cannot exist.

 

[abaddon]

I know why atheists want to change the definition of the word atheism so that it means something along the lines of non-stamp collecting. That's agnosticism. Agnostics have zero burden of proof. That's cool.

If you don't like me using the classical definition of atheism that's okay I will use William Lane Craig's substitute word 'schmatheism' - which means the belief that no God/gods exist.

And I will use Richard Dawkins very sensible spectrum of theistic probability.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_of_theistic_probability

A person can be both atheist and agnostic. Many atheists are.

If you find Dawkins' spectrum sensible then you'll find the agnostic atheist described there - it's #6, the "de facto atheist".

6. De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. "I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."

The "I don't know for certain" part is the agnosticism. "But I think God is very improbable" (and therefore don't believe) is the atheism part.

There's a link to Wiki's agnostic atheist page at the bottom of the "Spectrum of theistic probability" page that you linked to. The history and epistemological stance of agnostic atheism are on that page.

I'm a philosophical ("Humean") skeptic and so am always doubtful of certainties, especially irt metaphysics. Similarly to how I will not spend a lot of time working on a conclusive proof that there is no Loch Ness monster, I don't do that with EoG either. I have good reasons to believe I'm not missing out on anything important, and if I'm wrong then someone must convince me of that. Your ad homs about all the problems atheists have got (they are "deniers of God", nihilists, given to amoral hedonistic abandon, etc) are not valid inducements to seriously consider EoG yet again.

 

[Learner]

The irony here is that I'm cutting and pasting from quotes by atheists about atheism and I get called judgmental.

These aren't MY opinions about atheism - those are atheists' opinions about atheism.

That's what THEY say they believe and I take them at their word. If some individual 'atheist' wants to claim a mere lack of belief - agnosticism - to describe their personal version of non-theism that's fine. We live in an age where people get to call themselves whatever they want.

The Stanford Encyclopedia provides a concise explanation of why atheism is not merely a lack of belief about God/gods.

Theist - I think God exists.
Atheist - I think God doesn't exist.
Rhea - I need 30 pages of waffle and minutiae to describe all the nuance of what I'm not sure I don't believe.

Forgive them Lion, for they erm ..know what they do.

 

[skepticalbip]

The irony here is that I'm cutting and pasting from quotes by atheists about atheism and I get called judgmental.

These aren't MY opinions about atheism - those are atheists' opinions about atheism.

That's what THEY say they believe and I take them at their word. If some individual 'atheist' wants to claim a mere lack of belief - agnosticism - to describe their personal version of non-theism that's fine. We live in an age where people get to call themselves whatever they want.

The Stanford Encyclopedia provides a concise explanation of why atheism is not merely a lack of belief about God/gods.

Theist - I think God exists.
Atheist - I think God doesn't exist.
Rhea - I need 30 pages of waffle and minutiae to describe all the nuance of what I'm not sure I don't believe.

Forgive them Lion, for they erm ..know what they do.

Just WOW.... So you see your part in this thread is as that of Jesus and Lion is your FATHER in heaven?

 

[Learner]

Get away from me skeptan, for it is now posted that man doesn't get merry on whiskey alone!

 

[WAB]

Get away from me skeptan, for it is now posted that man doesn't get merry on whiskey alone!

Yeah, but whiskey helps.