England headed for A Caliphate

[Jimmy Higgins]

Imagine if every report of a murder in the USA or UK stated the migration status and racial status of the alleged murderer. There would be a whole lot of reports that went, "Non-immigrant white man xxxx yyyy is alleged killer".

Sounds like a possible investment opportunity.

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[Tigers!]

And the fascist population is concentrated enough in some English towns that their presence is really starting to be felt in politics and in the streets. Their population doesn't have to grow too much larger before the effects in politics will really start to be seen.

Am I correct in assuming you have problems with fascists concentrating in some English towns (I too have problems with fascists concentrating in some English towns) but if Muslims concentrate in other English towns that is ok?
Why?

Your question presupposes that the specific Muslims concentrating in English towns aren’t fascists.

Perhaps I was unclear. The Muslims are in some towns and the fascists in others.

That would imply that the Muslims aren’t fascists. Why should we believe the Muslims aren’t fascists?

Unless you want to be labelled Islamophobic, racist etc.

The evidence for an extraordinary claim is that if I’m skeptical of it its true believers will call me nasty names? That sounds more like evidence that said labelers are fascists.

Perhaps we are arguing at cross purposes. Are you saying Muslims are fascists?

I am not keen on labelling a whole group based upon the actions, thoughts, motives etc. of a subset (size unknown)
All we can say for certain is that they are Musilm.

So who’s labeling a whole group? That would be the ones claiming they aren’t fascists. This isn’t about whether every single Muslim is fascist; this is about whether an earlier poster has a double standard for having a problem with the concentration of fascists. When there’s a concentration of Muslims in some town and, say, 78% of Muslims are fascists, then it’s a near certainty that there’s a concentration of fascists there.

According to an NOP Research poll, 78% of Muslims in Britain are in favor of prosecuting people who publish cartoons of Muhammad.

Sounds like they (Muslims) want blasphemy laws reintroduced into the UK. They were abolished in the UK in 2008 and 2021 in Scotland.

Innocent until proven guilty and so on

Innocent until proven guilty is for individuals. It means we give a person the benefit of the doubt even if he’s from a known high-risk population. It isn’t an argument for self-deception about statistical reality.

 

[Bomb#20]

Perhaps I was unclear. The Muslims are in some towns and the fascists in others.

That would imply that the Muslims aren’t fascists. Why should we believe the Muslims aren’t fascists?

Unless you want to be labelled Islamophobic, racist etc.

The evidence for an extraordinary claim is that if I’m skeptical of it its true believers will call me nasty names? That sounds more like evidence that said labelers are fascists.

Perhaps we are arguing at cross purposes. Are you saying Muslims are fascists?

Not all of them. But most of the ones in Britain are. Hardly surprising, since most of the Muslims in the primary source countries are fascists. Hardly surprising, since most of the primary source countries are fascist. People bring their attitudes with them when they migrate and people mostly form their attitudes based on what they're used to.

The case for calling most Muslims in the UK fascist is plainly stronger than the case for calling fascist most of the people the earlier poster called fascist. If you advocated making it illegal to publish a disrespectful cartoon of Jesus he'd call you a fascist. Heck, he probably already thinks you're fascist just because you're anti-abortion; he's calling Reform voters fascist because they disagree with his preferred immigration policy and they haven't attacked anyone's free-speech rights.

So who’s labeling a whole group? That would be the ones claiming they aren’t fascists. This isn’t about whether every single Muslim is fascist; this is about whether an earlier poster has a double standard for having a problem with the concentration of fascists. When there’s a concentration of Muslims in some town and, say, 78% of Muslims are fascists, then it’s a near certainty that there’s a concentration of fascists there.

According to an NOP Research poll, 78% of Muslims in Britain are in favor of prosecuting people who publish cartoons of Muhammad.

Sounds like they (Muslims) want blasphemy laws reintroduced into the UK. They were abolished in the UK in 2008 and 2021 in Scotland.

Were they? A guy was prosecuted last year for “intent to cause against [the] religious institution of Islam, harassment, alarm or distress” because he burned the Quran. Looks a lot like a blasphemy law to me. His conviction was ultimately overturned by the High Court; but that the law was on the books at all means blasphemy has already been reintroduced. And the fact that the case even got to the High Court indicates the government intends to prosecute blasphemy whether it's legal or not -- the conviction was overturned on appeal and the government tried to reverse the appellate court.

 

[aupmanyav]

Are the Muslims in England doing any of that?

Not at the moment. They are 6% of the UK population. Allow that to get to 10%. Heard about 'Grooming Gangs'.
At the moment, Hindus are an easier target. Hindus are just 1.7%.

And the fact that the case even got to the High Court indicates the government intends to prosecute blasphemy whether it's legal or not --

It happens, votes are important. Trudeau supported Sikh separatism for 10 years because Sikh votes were important for the survival of his government.
That will happen in UK also.

 

[Bomb#20]

Muslims are not in the West to assimilate
...
They are in the west to take over. They are literally broadcasting it.

Like the Jews in Palestine.

If so, what’s your point? Do you think the immigration of the Jews into Palestine was, on the whole, good for the Palestinians?

No. Of course it wasn't. How could you even ask such a ridiculous question?

It’s called a “rhetorical question”. Back in March you were pooh-poohing TS’s suggestions that Islamic immigration is likely to be bad for the current inhabitants of the west. Yet here you are, pointing out the similarity to a historical case where mass influx was bad for the locals. Perhaps you’ve rethought your views and decided maybe TS is right; but that doesn’t seem plausible. So it’s surprising and counterintuitive that you’d back him up. So what was your point in saying it’s like the Jews in Palestine?

There's is very little similarity.

Dude! You're the one who said the one was like the other! Why did you say that if there's very little similarity? What was your point?

After WWII Jews came in droves and took over the country by force, Assassinating the opposition even if they were Jewish, stealing land and homes and forcing by threat of and committing violence against whole communities. Culminating in what is basically an open air prison. Are the Muslims in England doing any of that?

Let's revisit that question after we consider this one: Why is it "Jews came in droves and..." but it's "Are the Muslims in England doing..."? How come Jews don't get a "the"?

Most Jews in Palestine didn't assassinate anyone, or steal land or homes, or threaten or commit violence against whole communities, just like most Muslims don't in England. Most migrants of any religion are just looking for a better life.

 

[Elixir]

Why is it "Jews came in droves and..." but it's "Are the Muslims in England doing..."? How come Jews don't get a "the"?

Because Jews are people and Muslims are sub-human, in the western gestalt?
Just a guess, but it’s consistent with what I’ve seen going around.

 

[Bomb#20]

Are the Muslims in England doing any of that?

Not at the moment. They are 6% of the UK population. Allow that to get to 10%. Heard about 'Grooming Gangs'.

Historical note: The Jewish population of what would become Mandatory Palestine reached 6% in the 1890s.

 

[Bomb#20]

Why is it "Jews came in droves and..." but it's "Are the Muslims in England doing..."? How come Jews don't get a "the"?

Because Jews are people and Muslims are sub-human, in the western gestalt?
Just a guess, but it’s consistent with what I’ve seen going around.

By "the western gestalt", you mean, um, ZiprHead?

 

[Elixir]

Why is it "Jews came in droves and..." but it's "Are the Muslims in England doing..."? How come Jews don't get a "the"?

Because Jews are people and Muslims are sub-human, in the western gestalt?
Just a guess, but it’s consistent with what I’ve seen going around.

By "the western gestalt", you mean, um, ZiprHead?

No, B. The nature of a gestalt is, it’s insidious. It permeates, subconsciously. This one affects you, me and everyone else living in western societies.
Of course I don’t THINK of Muslims as sub-human, and I doubt that you do either. But that doesn’t exempt us.

 

[Derec]

For 5% of the population, they sure do a lot of raping ...

Three man jailed for raping woman on Brighton beach

CCTV footage from a nearby nightclub identified all three suspects, who had scanned their ID cards on entering the club as part of the venue’s own security measures.
They were identified as Abdulla Ahmadi, 26, Ibrahim Alshafe, 26, and Karin Al-Danasurt, 21, located and arrested.
Footage of the attack was found on the phone of Al-Danasurt, who sought to claim in his defence he had not been an active participant in the rape.
Alshafe and Ahmadi were subsequently charged with two counts of rape, while Al-Danasurt was charged with four counts of rape and sharing intimate images. All three were remanded in custody.

 

[Bomb#20]

Why is it "Jews came in droves and..." but it's "Are the Muslims in England doing..."? How come Jews don't get a "the"?

Because Jews are people and Muslims are sub-human, in the western gestalt?
Just a guess, but it’s consistent with what I’ve seen going around.

By "the western gestalt", you mean, um, ZiprHead?

No, B. The nature of a gestalt is, it’s insidious. It permeates, subconsciously. This one affects you, me and everyone else living in western societies.
Of course I don’t THINK of Muslims as sub-human, and I doubt that you do either. But that doesn’t exempt us.

Gotta love those unfalsifiable ad hominems. It's like how the IDF not raping Gazan women supposedly proves they regard Arabs as subhuman.

Yeah, maybe ZH did that because he's been subconsciously permeated with a gestalt. Maybe. Or maybe he did it because he was (consciously or subconsciously) accusing me of dehumanizing Muslims. Then again, maybe he was just doing a little preemptive goalpost moving -- maybe it's not "the Jews" because he didn't want to lay the bad actions of individuals at the door of the whole group, but it's "the Muslims" so in case I were to point out any examples of bad actions he'll still have the fallback argument of accusing me of laying the bad actions of individuals at the door of the whole group.

 

[Elixir]

Gotta love those unfalsifiable ad hominems.

Are you replying to another post?
Because what I posted was clearly “de se” as much as “ad hominem”.
What does the word gestalt mean to you?

 

[Elixir]

maybe it's not "the Jews" because he didn't want to lay the bad actions of individuals at the door of the whole group, but it's "the Muslims" so in case I were to point out any examples of bad actions he'll still have the fallback argument of accusing me of laying the bad actions of individuals at the door of the whole group.

Credit! A valid point imo. I suspect it’s more as I described, but of course I don’t know.

 

[ZiprHead]

Muslims are not in the West to assimilate
...
They are in the west to take over. They are literally broadcasting it.

Like the Jews in Palestine.

If so, what’s your point? Do you think the immigration of the Jews into Palestine was, on the whole, good for the Palestinians?

No. Of course it wasn't. How could you even ask such a ridiculous question?

It’s called a “rhetorical question”. Back in March you were pooh-poohing TS’s suggestions that Islamic immigration is likely to be bad for the current inhabitants of the west. Yet here you are, pointing out the similarity to a historical case where mass influx was bad for the locals. Perhaps you’ve rethought your views and decided maybe TS is right; but that doesn’t seem plausible. So it’s surprising and counterintuitive that you’d back him up. So what was your point in saying it’s like the Jews in Palestine?

There's is very little similarity.

Dude! You're the one who said the one was like the other! Why did you say that if there's very little similarity? What was your point?

After WWII Jews came in droves and took over the country by force, Assassinating the opposition even if they were Jewish, stealing land and homes and forcing by threat of and committing violence against whole communities. Culminating in what is basically an open air prison. Are the Muslims in England doing any of that?

Let's revisit that question after we consider this one: Why is it "Jews came in droves and..." but it's "Are the Muslims in England doing..."? How come Jews don't get a "the"?

Who cares?

Most Jews in Palestine didn't assassinate anyone, or steal land or homes, or threaten or commit violence against whole communities, just like most Muslims don't in England. Most migrants of any religion are just looking for a better life.

I agree. But THE Jews created the government that at the very least looked the other way when SOME Jews did exactly that and worst helped them commit those crimes. A majority of voting Jews installed and supported that government although that support has been slipping badly due to recent events.

 

[aupmanyav]

Gotta love those unfalsifiable ad hominems. It's like how the IDF not raping Gazan women supposedly proves they regard Arabs as subhuman.

Don't know about what happened in IDF raids. In India, if there is a rape by a soldier, he would be severely punished.
India has a very disciplined army. We are proud of that.

 

[Tigers!]

Perhaps I was unclear. The Muslims are in some towns and the fascists in others.

That would imply that the Muslims aren’t fascists. Why should we believe the Muslims aren’t fascists?

Unless you want to be labelled Islamophobic, racist etc.

The evidence for an extraordinary claim is that if I’m skeptical of it its true believers will call me nasty names? That sounds more like evidence that said labelers are fascists.

Perhaps we are arguing at cross purposes. Are you saying Muslims are fascists?

Not all of them. But most of the ones in Britain are. Hardly surprising, since most of the Muslims in the primary source countries are fascists. Hardly surprising, since most of the primary source countries are fascist. People bring their attitudes with them when they migrate and people mostly form their attitudes based on what they're used to.

The case for calling most Muslims in the UK fascist is plainly stronger than the case for calling fascist most of the people the earlier poster called fascist. If you advocated making it illegal to publish a disrespectful cartoon of Jesus he'd call you a fascist. Heck, he probably already thinks you're fascist just because you're anti-abortion; he's calling Reform voters fascist because they disagree with his preferred immigration policy and they haven't attacked anyone's free-speech rights.

Of course. A member of the "anyone who dares disagrees with me any 1 point is a fascist" brigade

So who’s labeling a whole group? That would be the ones claiming they aren’t fascists. This isn’t about whether every single Muslim is fascist; this is about whether an earlier poster has a double standard for having a problem with the concentration of fascists. When there’s a concentration of Muslims in some town and, say, 78% of Muslims are fascists, then it’s a near certainty that there’s a concentration of fascists there.

According to an NOP Research poll, 78% of Muslims in Britain are in favor of prosecuting people who publish cartoons of Muhammad.

Sounds like they (Muslims) want blasphemy laws reintroduced into the UK. They were abolished in the UK in 2008 and 2021 in Scotland.

Were they? A guy was prosecuted last year for “intent to cause against [the] religious institution of Islam, harassment, alarm or distress” because he burned the Quran. Looks a lot like a blasphemy law to me. His conviction was ultimately overturned by the High Court; but that the law was on the books at all means blasphemy has already been reintroduced. And the fact that the case even got to the High Court indicates the government intends to prosecute blasphemy whether it's legal or not -- the conviction was overturned on appeal and the government tried to reverse the appellate court.

It appears when the blasphemy laws in the UK &E Scotland were repealed it only applies to blasphemy against God/Jesus, other religions are not affected.
Of course the Act does not say it like that but as you note that is the practical effect.

In Victoria, Australia burning a Bible vs. burning a Koran is treated differently
From AI (with all the caveats that apply to this activity)
Burning a bible in Victoria Aust
Burning a Bible that you own is generally not a specific crime under Victoria, Australia law, provided you do not break general laws. However, it can still cause legal trouble depending on how and where you do it. [1]

Burning a Koran in Victoria, Australia
Burning a Koran in public in Victoria, Australia, is highly likely to result in criminal charges and severe civil penalties. [1, 2]
While Australia does not have active, modern blasphemy laws that penalize the desecration of a holy book itself, Victoria operates under strict, newly updated anti-vilification laws designed to prevent religious hatred and public disorder

The difference in wording for the same act viz. burning of a book considered holy is instructive.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

For 5% of the population, they sure do a lot of raping ...

Three man jailed for raping woman on Brighton beach

Umm... not seeing the math here. But happy for you, that you could take an isolated brutal crime and try to score points for your agenda.

 

[scombrid]

They are bad at math. That’s why they think vaccines are more dangerous than diseases. They apply the same logic and attention to exaggerated risk to any color they don’t like.

They’re eating the pets. They’re all rapists and murderers. Apparently the progressive secular Muslims are all faking it. Or their being progressive and secular is just as bad as being a right wing Islamist.

 

[Bomb#20]

After WWII Jews came in droves and took over the country by force, Assassinating the opposition even if they were Jewish, stealing land and homes and forcing by threat of and committing violence against whole communities. Culminating in what is basically an open air prison. Are the Muslims in England doing any of that?

Let's revisit that question after we consider this one: Why is it "Jews came in droves and..." but it's "Are the Muslims in England doing..."? How come Jews don't get a "the"?

Who cares?

I care, and apparently Elixir cares too. Oh well, I take it we're doomed to never know why -- as doomed as we are to never know why you brought up Jews in the first place. Perhaps you meant to suggest that if Muslims "are in the west to take over" we should all be okay with it, because we're all presumed to be okay with Jews having been in Palestine to take over, because we're all okay with not punishing those Jews' great-grandchildren for the takeover. Pure speculation, of course -- but that's all we have to go on since you won't explain yourself.

Most Jews in Palestine didn't assassinate anyone, or steal land or homes, or threaten or commit violence against whole communities, just like most Muslims don't in England. Most migrants of any religion are just looking for a better life.

I agree. But THE Jews created the government that at the very least looked the other way when SOME Jews did exactly that and worst helped them commit those crimes. A majority of voting Jews installed and supported that government although that support has been slipping badly due to recent events.

Well, if we're laying the wrongdoings of rulers at the door of the people who voted for them, the great majority of "the" UK Muslims voted for Labour, for the regime of Two-Tier Keir -- the government that trained its police officers to be, as the shadow home secretary said, more concerned with the accusation of racism than they were with helping the guy who'd been stabbed five times. So much for the "the".

As to whether Muslims in England are "doing any of that", yes, they are. The rape gangs all over Britain are violence against whole communities; and a UK Muslim assassinated the opposition even though he was a Muslim*, a UK Muslim assassinated a politician*, and a UK Muslim tried to assassinate another politician* and severely wounded him. Were Jews in Palestine doing any of that by the time their numbers had grown to 6%?

(* Imam Jalal Uddin, MP David Amess, MP Stephen Timms)

 

[steve_bank]

I think in the past France tried to accommodate Muslims. Funded Muslim clerics and schools. And thy endd up regretting it. There was little assimilation and Muslims ended up in what amounts to ghettos. Nothing recent there have been riots.

AI Overview
France has tightened regulations on Muslim clerics and revoked state support from certain Islamic educational institutions under its strict policy of secularism (laïcité).

Clerics (Imams)End of Foreign-Funded Imams: France implemented a policy to stop accepting "seconded imams"—religious leaders trained and paid by foreign governments like Turkey, Algeria, and Morocco.Transition or Departure: Foreign-funded imams already in the country were required to transition to locally funded employment or leave.Goal: The government aims to have imams trained within France to ensure compliance with republican values and reduce foreign influence.Schools and InstitutionsFunding Revoked: French authorities revoked state funding for major private Muslim institutions, such as the Lycée Averroès high school, citing concerns over opaque financial management and course content.Increased Oversight: Legislation has given the state broader powers to monitor mosque financing, restrict unauthorized homeschooling, and close religious organizations or training centers deemed to promote separatism or counter-republican values.Would you like to know more about the 1905 French law on the separation of church and state or recent legal challenges to these policies?

AI Overview
France did not officially "open up" or invite a Muslim population by choice in a singular policy decision; rather, the presence of Muslims in modern France grew primarily through post-colonial labor migration from North Africa (such as Algeria, Morocco, and Tunisia) in the mid-20th century to rebuild the country after World War II.Instead of regret, contemporary French political discourse reflects profound tension, policy friction, and a perceived clash between traditional French secularism (laïcité) and the religious and cultural integration of its estimated 5 million Muslim citizens—the largest Muslim population in Western Europe.

AI Overview
Major civil unrest in France—frequently discussed in relation to immigrant-heavy suburban neighborhoods—has historically been driven by socioeconomic marginalization, urban poverty, and strained relations with law enforcement rather than religious conflict.

What we call Islamicists are Muslims who believe their loyalty is to a future caliphate, not the country they live in, There is a p[rt of Islam that is fundamentally incompatible with western liberal democracy and separation of church and state.

Back in the 90s I think a Muslim continuity in Chicago wanted to govern themselves by sharia laws.

I take that to be a small minority of American Muslims. I once heard a Muse say Muslims. in the USA are freer to practice Islam than in Muslim countries.