Epstein, Kiddies, And Trump. Oh, My

[laughing dog]

Pedantic point made - trinary instead of binary.

That's not pedantic. It shows that even though the law relies on age cutoffs when making definitions, things can be designed with more than two divisions. There is also no reason not to make more divisions than three to make it more aligned with reality, for example make it a higher level of crime if the younger person is under 13 rather than 14-15 (or 14-17 depending on the general aoc).

You have the standard aoc, and then “exception aoc which may be a function of factors”. None of which changes that a 16 or 17 year old is a child, just that a 16 yr old or 17 yr old can be fucked without legal penalty in certain situations.

 

[Derec]

Violence is committed against prostitutes working in legalized settings, here and abroad.

And that is horrible and should be prosecuted. As should violence by sex workers against clients of course.

Coercion is alleged in the cases of sex workers in places such as Nevada, as is wage theft.

Define "coercion". Your prohibitionist friends tend to define it very broadly, with taking up sex work because one needs money being called "coercive". Of course, under that definition, any job is "coercive"!

As to allegations of wage theft, allegation itself does not mean that it happened in every instance. And of course, you are not using "wage theft" to argue that other industries where it happens should be outlawed, so why should sex work?

In places where prostitution is legalized, there is an increase in sex trafficking, particularly of minors.

[citation needed]
Preferably, not by a prohibitionist source.
What is possible is that legalization increases the number of reports of trafficking (particularly of minors) without increasing (or even while decreasing) the actual prevalence. And that is obviously a good thing. Law enforcement can act on those reports, and they are not wasting time and resources harassing consenting adults.

I think that 21 is a reasonable age for legalization of sex work:

I think 18 is fine, but then again, I think 18 is fine for drinking and other things you Helen Lovejoys are trying to protect young adults from. By the way, drinking age is another thing US is out of step with most of the developed world on.

Here is a link to things you cannot do until you are 21. Personally, I would raise the age to join the military or any branch of law enforcement until 21.

Of course you would.

 

[Derec]

None of which changes that a 16 or 17 year old is a child,

Nope. They are minors, but they are not children.

 

[Derec]

Sex trafficers want 18 year olds(and younger) for the same reason the Army wants 18 year olds. It's easy to get them to do things that are inherently contrary to their self interest.

That assumes that 18 year olds have no agency to make decisions for themselves.
We have gone from claiming that 16-17 are little children to now the new claim being that 18-20 year olds are children too.

 

[Derec]

Well, there are eye witness accounts of abuse and in fact, sworn testimony verifying the abuse.

Who are the alleged witnesses?

But rich, powerful men find ways to avoid facing charges.

We know Bragg was hellbent on 'getting' Trump on something, given the legal pretzels he had to twist the Manhattan DA's office in order to prosecute the hush money case.
Do you really think that he would not have prosecuted the Katie Johnson case if there was a modicum of actual evidence other than the accusation?

 

[laughing dog]

None of which changes that a 16 or 17 year old is a child,

Nope. They are minors, but they are not children.

Not to those who don’t think with their genitals.

 

[Derec]

Not to those who don’t think with their genitals.

Again, you resort to cheap insults.

This is an issue of human development that is not limited to sexual development or behavior.

I think teenagers who commit serious crimes like carjackings or even murders should be tried in criminal court and not juvenile court. Their age can be used as a mitigating circumstance in sentencing, but they deserve real consequences for their actions, not just a few years in juvi.
Two 15-year-olds arrested in connection with DOGE staffer ‘Big Balls’ beating in DC

I think we should distinguish children from teenagers when it comes to Gaza fatalities because Hamas often recruits teenagers as fighters. Because teenagers are distinct from children.

Note that the female fatality rate follows the population pyramid pretty well. But for males, there is a bulge that peaks in the 20s, but starts in the teens.

 

[Jarhyn]

And, yet another screed of red herrings (hint: nobody is really calling for penalties of children exploring with children).

The subject is kids with adults.

There are pictures, evidence, testimony...

It's almost like the reason he isn't being prosecuted on the evidence we already have is because he has corrupted the DOJ and Congress has voted to block even hearing the evidence.

It's shocking that someone can call Joe Biden creepy, or whatever, and then say "oh, where's the evidence" when Trump literally talked about doing it openly on camera.

The reason it comes up is some of the apparent victims were legally able to consent to sex.

But my point wasn't necessarily about the legality of it.

Really, I do not care; The Filthy One was involved with a 13 year old. At one point he expressed his limit was 12. That's not legal.

But that's beside the point.

The point I have been trying to stand on, that is being danced around by fools and jesters wearing the colors of a child rapist, is that the people making these arguments really seem to want to be the ones fucking those 16 year olds.

I imagine they might wish the legal age for them was lower still.

 

[Bronzeage]

Sex trafficers want 18 year olds(and younger) for the same reason the Army wants 18 year olds. It's easy to get them to do things that are inherently contrary to their self interest.

That assumes that 18 year olds have no agency to make decisions for themselves.
We have gone from claiming that 16-17 are little children to now the new claim being that 18-20 year olds are children too.

No one said that 18 year olds have no agency over their lives. That's a straw man argument that does not address the issue.

 

[scombrid]

Hey man. Trump dindunuffin. Maxwell told his personal attorney and that's a wrap. Besides, they took advantage of him using their youthful charm to seduce.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Not to those who don’t think with their genitals.

Again, you resort to cheap insults.

This is an issue of human development that is not limited to sexual development or behavior.

I think teenagers who commit serious crimes like carjackings or even murders should be tried in criminal court and not juvenile court. Their age can be used as a mitigating circumstance in sentencing, but they deserve real consequences for their actions, not just a few years in juvi.
Two 15-year-olds arrested in connection with DOGE staffer ‘Big Balls’ beating in DC

I think we should distinguish children from teenagers when it comes to Gaza fatalities because Hamas often recruits teenagers as fighters. Because teenagers are distinct from children.
View attachment 51677
Note that the female fatality rate follows the population pyramid pretty well. But for males, there is a bulge that peaks in the 20s, but starts in the teens.

Are there any other hobby horses you'd like to derail the thread with that was about Epstein and Trump's relationship to him and whomever Trump got some jollys off of?

The whole point of my comment was that the defense for Trump once (if) info comes out about what he did, we'd see red herrings about how a 15 year old isn't a child from people that support Trump. The statement, in certain contexts, can be considered true, but it is still an irrelevant red herring as doing such things to a "child" or a "15 year old", particularly at Trump's age, are clearly illegal.

 

[Toni]

Sex trafficers want 18 year olds(and younger) for the same reason the Army wants 18 year olds. It's easy to get them to do things that are inherently contrary to their self interest.

That assumes that 18 year olds have no agency to make decisions for themselves.
We have gone from claiming that 16-17 are little children to now the new claim being that 18-20 year olds are children too.

There is a huge gulf between having no agency and having a mature enough brain to understand long term consequences of one's actions or even to be able to evaluate when an adult is promoting your own best interests or their own.

One of the things that I watched my 18-22 year old kids struggle with was the fact that sometimes adults lie and do not tell you complete information or withhold information or otherwise take advantage of youth and inexperience. They were accustomed to adults who were honest and who were looking out for their best interests, even when the kid disagreed with the parent about what their best interests were. As a parent or other adult responsible for or towards 18-22or 25 year olds. Typically you feel protective towards and a sense of responsibility for your kids as they become independent adults. They are going to make mistakes, just like anyone else does. You just hope that the inevitable mistakes made do not have serious or seriously bad repercussions for them.

Certain things such as use of drugs and alcohol and involvement in relationships that turn out to be abusive can have serious, life long, negative consequences.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There are often different statutes of limitation carved out specifically for those who survived childhood sexual abuse.

Yeah, but the reason for the statute of limitations remains.

I am saying that more generally some types of evidence should be permitted later. You confess (or say things a jury decides amounts to a confession), you can be convicted no matter how long. I used to think that long ago sex offenses could not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and thus should not be prosecuted, but now we have seen two people whose defense convinced me of their guilt. I'm sure there are more such things.

When there are children involved, consent is not an issue: they cannot give consent. And in the case of accusations against Epstein’s client list, none of the victims that we know about were too young to be able to remember and be reliable witnesses. But unfortunately, also very vulnerable to threats of harm to them and their families.

The statute of limitations exists because of the difficulty in defending allegations of long ago actions. You're not presenting anything that would change that.

 

[ZiprHead]

There are often different statutes of limitation carved out specifically for those who survived childhood sexual abuse.

Yeah, but the reason for the statute of limitations remains.

I am saying that more generally some types of evidence should be permitted later. You confess (or say things a jury decides amounts to a confession), you can be convicted no matter how long. I used to think that long ago sex offenses could not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and thus should not be prosecuted, but now we have seen two people whose defense convinced me of their guilt. I'm sure there are more such things.

When there are children involved, consent is not an issue: they cannot give consent. And in the case of accusations against Epstein’s client list, none of the victims that we know about were too young to be able to remember and be reliable witnesses. But unfortunately, also very vulnerable to threats of harm to them and their families.

The statute of limitations exists because of the difficulty in defending allegations of long ago actions. You're not presenting anything that would change that.

Epstein photographed and filmed a lot of his, and others, rapes. Those pics can be compared to other pics of his and others victims and used to get charges.

Thomas Wolff has said Epstein showed him polaroids of Trump and naked kids.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That does not change the fact that if you are going to allege rape or other sexual misconduct it is better to do it right after it happened, when there is a greater chance of evidence being found.
Otoh, if you are going to make up claims of sexual misconduct, it is better to do it decades later, when lack of corroborating evidence can be dismissed with the passage of time, and there is little chance of exculpatory evidence being found either.
I am not saying KJ is lying, but if she is telling the truth, she should have come forward right away.

Such abusers are good at picking victims that will be scared to talk. And whose testimony will be suspect if they do.

It takes a great deal to go to the police with allegations of rape for anyone. In this case, you have young girls, removed from their families, who had been groomed and abused for some time, by wealthy, powerful people who manipulated and controlled them.

Doesn't change the fact that no evidence is no evidence.

Doesn't always mean no evidence.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Some crimes have no statute of limitations. Murder is an example.

Murder is I think the only crime that should not have a statute of limitations, because of what kind of evidence may be found for murder. I.e. a dead body.

Raping children should also have no statute of limitations, imo. Otherwise, wealthy and powerful people simply need to ride out the time frame .

Decades later, there is no chance to find corroborating evidence. So I disagree that there should not be a statute of limitations. But to account for the younger ages, the sol clock should start running at 18.
And just because somebody is "wealthy and powerful" does not mean that they cannot be a target of false accusations by malicious actors.

I used to think that. Then we had two high profile cases where the defendants managed to convince me of their guilt.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Violence is committed against prostitutes working in legalized settings, here and abroad. Coercion is alleged in the cases of sex workers in places such as Nevada, as is wage theft. In places where prostitution is legalized, there is an increase in sex trafficking, particularly of minors.

I think that 21 is a reasonable age for legalization of sex work:

21 Things You Can Do at 21 Years Old (& Not Just Drinking)

Drinking alcohol, gambling at casinos, renting a car, and more!In the United States, a 21st birthday is considered a major milestone since it marks the age that you're legally allowed to drink alcohol. But did you know that there are a ton...

www.wikihow.com

I think that it is pertinent that one cannot e gage in some activities which can/do have an adverse affect in your health until you are 21, namely legally consume alcohol or tobacco or cannabis.

I would divide sex work into solo (stripper, solo modelling, cam girl) with an 18 limit and not solo with a 21 limit.

But isn't tobacco 18 limit?

 

[Elixir]

Says it all. Fucking rumpsuckers.

 

[laughing dog]

Not to those who don’t think with their genitals.

Again, you resort to cheap insults.

Apparently, the truth hurts.

Two 15-year-olds arrested in connection with DOGE staffer ‘Big Balls’ beating in DC[/URL]

I think we should distinguish children from teenagers when it comes to Gaza fatalities because Hamas often recruits teenagers as fighters. Because teenagers are distinct from children.
View attachment 51677
Note that the female fatality rate follows the population pyramid pretty well. But for males, there is a bulge that peaks in the 20s, but starts in the teens.

Anything that rationalizes your obsession with your narrow view of appropriate punishment does not negate the fact that teenagers (especially young teens) are neither physically nor emotionally nor psychologically developed as adults,

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There are often different statutes of limitation carved out specifically for those who survived childhood sexual abuse.

Yeah, but the reason for the statute of limitations remains.

I am saying that more generally some types of evidence should be permitted later. You confess (or say things a jury decides amounts to a confession), you can be convicted no matter how long. I used to think that long ago sex offenses could not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and thus should not be prosecuted, but now we have seen two people whose defense convinced me of their guilt. I'm sure there are more such things.

When there are children involved, consent is not an issue: they cannot give consent. And in the case of accusations against Epstein’s client list, none of the victims that we know about were too young to be able to remember and be reliable witnesses. But unfortunately, also very vulnerable to threats of harm to them and their families.

The statute of limitations exists because of the difficulty in defending allegations of long ago actions. You're not presenting anything that would change that.

Epstein photographed and filmed a lot of his, and others, rapes. Those pics can be compared to other pics of his and others victims and used to get charges.

Thomas Wolff has said Epstein showed him polaroids of Trump and naked kids.

And that's the sort of thing I was talking about with evidence that doesn't decay with time.