Europe submits voluntarily

[barbos]

No, it's argument from knowledge. If it were swedes then politically correct swedish press would say so, so the fact that they did not means they were immigrants.

Aha.... so the only press you can trust is the one's who blames the Muslims. If they don't, that's evidence they're hiding this fact.

Makes perfect sense. You're starting to remind me of the fundamentalist Christians we get here and their abuse of logic.

That's patently false. M.O. points toward muslim youth, hence your "nothing" is bullshit. In reality everything points toward muslim immigrants.

All you've got to support your version is Donald Trump's latest brain fart. That's not a credible source.

Stop insulting my intelligence. There are no north american ghettos in Sweden. Even South American ghettos do not exist in Sweden. You are making shit up.

There are no ghettos of any kind in Sweden. Our social welfare system takes care of that.

Claiming there is is a media product. The closest thing we've got is Rosengård in Malmö. A completely different city entirely 500 km to the south of Rinkeby. Which I've written about in this thread, and explained why it's so shitty there. Which has nothing to do with Islamic immigration. Just stupid city planing and politicians doing what they do best, fuck shit up. But Rosengård is getting better and has been the last 15 years. Which is a strong argument against it getting worse with the latest waves of Syrian refugees.

https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...ts-voluntarily&p=387689&viewfull=1#post387689

You are losing this debate.

 

[bilby]

I agree that fantasy-Sweden isn't handling it very well. Things are going better in the real Sweden.

As can be seen, the reality is a nightmare for the fearful residents of Rinkeby.

Reality is always a nightmare for the fearful.

That doesn't imply that their fear is in any way justified.

 

[barbos]

As can be seen, the reality is a nightmare for the fearful residents of Rinkeby.

Reality is always a nightmare for the fearful.

That doesn't imply that their fear is in any way justified.

Such a useless piece of "wisdom".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If there's a housing shortage, then people arriving via vaginas are more of a problem than those arriving across borders.

Your conclusion is not supported by your argument.

In the western world vaginas are more than balanced by funeral homes. They are not responsible for housing shortages.

You're committing the same sin the global warming deniers do in pointing out the huge natural CO2 emissions.

 

[bilby]

If there's a housing shortage, then people arriving via vaginas are more of a problem than those arriving across borders.

Your conclusion is not supported by your argument.

In the western world vaginas are more than balanced by funeral homes. They are not responsible for housing shortages.

You're committing the same sin the global warming deniers do in pointing out the huge natural CO2 emissions.

That could be true, if household sizes were remaining approximately static.

But they are not.

 

[angelo]

Why is any criticism of islam labelled racist? Is it because the only way to deflect any criticism is to attack, and many times violently with physical assault and murder [ Van Gough] to any who dare to criticise it?

Do the muslim apologist hope to silence the masses by threats and the racist label? Since when has islam been a race?

Exactly, Islam is an idea. Not a people. So when you're worried about Muslims pouring into our lands and "breeding" you're not talking about an opinion. Opinions can change. Races can't. If Islam is such a powerful idea that prevents people from leaving the faith, how aren't you saying that Islam is a powerful idea because it is right? Obviously it's not. All the Abrahamic faiths are about as shallow and dumb. What are you so damn afraid of?

All studies on religions show that they're all weakening. People aren't becoming less religious. But they are reformulating their religions making them increasingly liberal. This is across the board for all religions. These kinds of studies are of course hard to carry out in Islamic fascist states. But there's no reason to believe it's any different over there. We've all access to the same Internet. Censorship of the Internet doesn't work.

The increasing instability of Iran is a good example. Liberal Islam has been growing to the point where it's nearing a critical mass that will topple the hard line Islamist government. It seems to only be a matter of time now. And if you know anything about the Iranian revolution you know that the Iranian people were pretty split even back in 1979. A majority were conservative Muslims. But the country had a very large liberal Muslim minority that weren't at all cool with the conservative Islamic Republic. Well... that minority has been growing and is likely the majority now. There's a hell of a lot more of those liberal Muslims today and they will have none of the Ayatollah's bullshit.

So when you're worried about Muslims coming here, and you're convinced that they will stay Muslim, and their children will be Muslim you're not talking about what's in their heads. You're talking about something they are. Something intrinsic to them that they cannot change. To me that sounds like a proxy for Racism. Newspeak.

Please, Angelo, could you please try to convince me that you're not just a racist? Right now, I'm not convinced.

What you forget, or deliberately don't mention is the fact that there are 1.2 1.6 billion muslims on the planet. Some research by Pew and others show that up to 20%. [ very conservative figure ] do NOT condemn Islamic terrorist attacks. That's a hell of a lot of Muslims who want evil westerners dead!

 

[DrZoidberg]

What you forget, or deliberately don't mention is the fact that there are 1.2 1.6 billion muslims on the planet. Some research by Pew and others show that up to 20%. [ very conservative figure ] do NOT condemn Islamic terrorist attacks. That's a hell of a lot of Muslims who want evil westerners dead!

Of course they do. It's a constant frustration for the majority of Muslims that when they do condemn terrorist attacks nobody publishes it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelly-james-clark/why-dont-moderate-muslims_b_8722518.html

Almost all Muslims, (including Al Qaeda!) condemn anything ISIS has done. Does anybody report that? No. Even most Jihadis are horrified by ISIS extreme version of Islam.

The idea of a war between Islam and the west is a media product. There's no truth to it.

What religion people report they belongs to tells you nothing about what they believe. Nearly all studies on religious affiliation just focuses on survey were people report which religion they identify with. But in most places in the world your religion isn't what you believe. It's just what family you grew up in. That would mean there's a lot of atheistic Muslims out there. To my knowledge nobody has studied this in the Middle-East. Also in Europe studies are pretty few and far between. The best study is the American Religious Identification study

http://commons.trincoll.edu/aris/

It's only for America but they have used the same survey for 30 years now. Religious identification of faiths is stable. But what has changed is what people actually believe and what type of god they believe in. So even if the number of Christians and Muslims in USA has remained pretty constant the beliefs they hold are getting weirder and weirder. That's not atheism. But it's getting increasingly hard to generalise about religious people. The Islamic world has access to the same Internet as us. There's no reason to believe they're immune to this.

One example is ISIS. ISIS is a pure Internet product. That type of Islam would have been unthinkable without extremist forum trolls finding each other on-line. Despite their claims of being conservative, ISIS is a wholy new and modern form of Islam with no historical roots. Yes, they claim they do. But they don't. ISIS propagandists are just lying.

And obviously this increasing creative interpretation of Islam goes both ways. Both towards extremism and liberalism. Which is supported by the evidence.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Exactly, Islam is an idea. Not a people. So when you're worried about Muslims pouring into our lands and "breeding" you're not talking about an opinion. Opinions can change. Races can't. If Islam is such a powerful idea that prevents people from leaving the faith, how aren't you saying that Islam is a powerful idea because it is right? Obviously it's not. All the Abrahamic faiths are about as shallow and dumb. What are you so damn afraid of?

All studies on religions show that they're all weakening. People aren't becoming less religious. But they are reformulating their religions making them increasingly liberal. This is across the board for all religions. These kinds of studies are of course hard to carry out in Islamic fascist states. But there's no reason to believe it's any different over there. We've all access to the same Internet. Censorship of the Internet doesn't work.

The increasing instability of Iran is a good example. Liberal Islam has been growing to the point where it's nearing a critical mass that will topple the hard line Islamist government. It seems to only be a matter of time now. And if you know anything about the Iranian revolution you know that the Iranian people were pretty split even back in 1979. A majority were conservative Muslims. But the country had a very large liberal Muslim minority that weren't at all cool with the conservative Islamic Republic. Well... that minority has been growing and is likely the majority now. There's a hell of a lot more of those liberal Muslims today and they will have none of the Ayatollah's bullshit.

So when you're worried about Muslims coming here, and you're convinced that they will stay Muslim, and their children will be Muslim you're not talking about what's in their heads. You're talking about something they are. Something intrinsic to them that they cannot change. To me that sounds like a proxy for Racism. Newspeak.

Please, Angelo, could you please try to convince me that you're not just a racist? Right now, I'm not convinced.

What you forget, or deliberately don't mention is the fact that there are 1.2 1.6 billion muslims on the planet. Some research by Pew and others show that up to 20%. [ very conservative figure ] do NOT condemn Islamic terrorist attacks. That's a hell of a lot of Muslims who want evil westerners dead!

I think in fairness out of that 20% very few would actually commit such bad acts. Muslims are generally peaceful. There again just one or two can cause havoc. You will like this one. In the UAE, radical organisations are banned and treated harshly. The Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) is a Guru on Islam to the Democrats and served as advisers to Obama. In the UAE it was banned a couple of years ago as a terrorist organisation. John Kerry asked for clarification.

CAIR in the USA recently encouraged a ban on a documentary about treatment of women in Islamic countries. It was not because of the content where Muslims were involved in this but because the organisation that produced it is considered right wing. There again Malcolm X said, "The truth is the truth no matter who says it."

 

[whichphilosophy]

If there's a housing shortage, then people arriving via vaginas are more of a problem than those arriving across borders.

Your conclusion is not supported by your argument.

In the western world vaginas are more than balanced by funeral homes. They are not responsible for housing shortages.

You're committing the same sin the global warming deniers do in pointing out the huge natural CO2 emissions.

The volume of people entering the country in the absence of housing =housing shortages.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Angelo: here's the entire Pew study. I think you'll find it an interesting read. Almost no Muslims support ISIS.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Angelo: here's the entire Pew study. I think you'll find it an interesting read. Almost no Muslims support ISIS.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

Not supporting ISIS is not the same as not supporting terrorism.

More generally, Muslims mostly say that suicide bombings and other forms of violence against civilians in the name of Islam are rarely or never justified, including 92% in Indonesia and 91% in Iraq. In the United States, a 2011 survey found that 86% of Muslims say such tactics are rarely or never justified. An additional 7% say suicide bombings are sometimes justified and 1% say they are often justified.

That's 30k terrorist supporters in the US alone.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Not supporting ISIS is not the same as not supporting terrorism.

More generally, Muslims mostly say that suicide bombings and other forms of violence against civilians in the name of Islam are rarely or never justified, including 92% in Indonesia and 91% in Iraq. In the United States, a 2011 survey found that 86% of Muslims say such tactics are rarely or never justified. An additional 7% say suicide bombings are sometimes justified and 1% say they are often justified.

That's 30k terrorist supporters in the US alone.

Ok, but a majority of US voters voted for a president who's main campaign promise was to build a wall on the US-Mexican borders. I don't think 30 000 potential American suicide bombers is much to worry about right now. And there hasn't been a lot of suicide bombs in USA of late. So those 30 000 suicide bombers are probably getting psyched up for the next attack on Hooters or something. Right now the main extremist to worry about is the president of USA. Just sayin'

 

[whichphilosophy]

Not supporting ISIS is not the same as not supporting terrorism.



That's 30k terrorist supporters in the US alone.

Ok, but a majority of US voters voted for a president who's main campaign promise was to build a wall on the US-Mexican borders. I don't think 30 000 potential American suicide bombers is much to worry about right now. And there hasn't been a lot of suicide bombs in USA of late. So those 30 000 suicide bombers are probably getting psyched up for the next attack on Hooters or something. Right now the main extremist to worry about is the president of USA. Just sayin'

If a red neck became a suicide bomber, he would brag about a dozen successful missions.

 

[bilby]

Religious fanatics vandalise Toowong war memorial

Fucking Musli... oh, wait.

Shit.

 

[Warpoet]

Your approach is simply racist. You claim that it's not, on the grounds that "Islam is not a race"; But if you understood that to be true, then you couldn't then claim that the number of children Muslims have is relevant - Race is inherited, ideas are not. You have to pick one - is Islam a proxy for race, and your position racist; Or is Islam NOT a proxy for race, and your fears of "too many children" irrelevant?

Regardless of which he chooses, he's clearly no better than the racist shits who use this exact same reasoning to argue that a race - usually latinos - are "taking over." IIRC he believes that too, but he's not nearly as bold there with the "invasion" shit as he's been with Muslims since Trump got elected. Either way, he's a fucking idiot.

 

[Bomb#20]

Not supporting ISIS is not the same as not supporting terrorism.

More generally, Muslims mostly say that suicide bombings and other forms of violence against civilians in the name of Islam are rarely or never justified, including 92% in Indonesia and 91% in Iraq. In the United States, a 2011 survey found that 86% of Muslims say such tactics are rarely or never justified. An additional 7% say suicide bombings are sometimes justified and 1% say they are often justified.

That's 30k terrorist supporters in the US alone.

Or more. Saying suicide bombings and other forms of violence against civilians are never justified is not the same as not supporting terrorism. You just have to define whichever civilians you're okay with murdering as "non-civilians".

 

[angelo]

What you forget, or deliberately don't mention is the fact that there are 1.2 1.6 billion muslims on the planet. Some research by Pew and others show that up to 20%. [ very conservative figure ] do NOT condemn Islamic terrorist attacks. That's a hell of a lot of Muslims who want evil westerners dead!

Of course they do. It's a constant frustration for the majority of Muslims that when they do condemn terrorist attacks nobody publishes it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelly-james-clark/why-dont-moderate-muslims_b_8722518.html

Almost all Muslims, (including Al Qaeda!) condemn anything ISIS has done. Does anybody report that? No. Even most Jihadis are horrified by ISIS extreme version of Islam.

The idea of a war between Islam and the west is a media product. There's no truth to it.

What religion people report they belongs to tells you nothing about what they believe. Nearly all studies on religious affiliation just focuses on survey were people report which religion they identify with. But in most places in the world your religion isn't what you believe. It's just what family you grew up in. That would mean there's a lot of atheistic Muslims out there. To my knowledge nobody has studied this in the Middle-East. Also in Europe studies are pretty few and far between. The best study is the American Religious Identification study

http://commons.trincoll.edu/aris/

It's only for America but they have used the same survey for 30 years now. Religious identification of faiths is stable. But what has changed is what people actually believe and what type of god they believe in. So even if the number of Christians and Muslims in USA has remained pretty constant the beliefs they hold are getting weirder and weirder. That's not atheism. But it's getting increasingly hard to generalise about religious people. The Islamic world has access to the same Internet as us. There's no reason to believe they're immune to this.

One example is ISIS. ISIS is a pure Internet product. That type of Islam would have been unthinkable without extremist forum trolls finding each other on-line. Despite their claims of being conservative, ISIS is a wholy new and modern form of Islam with no historical roots. Yes, they claim they do. But they don't. ISIS propagandists are just lying.

And obviously this increasing creative interpretation of Islam goes both ways. Both towards extremism and liberalism. Which is supported by the evidence.

The very same rules apply here my friend! The Huff Post as you imply the Daily Mail, are not neutral news sources!

 

[repoman]

Orban is bringing the heat. Good luck!

 

[DrZoidberg]

The very same rules apply here my friend! The Huff Post as you imply the Daily Mail, are not neutral news sources!

You are absolutely correct. But the Huff post includes sources (it's pretty much just a list of sources) which you can check yourself. Which is why I chose to use it anyway. It was a good collection.

But it's easy to do this research yourself. Just pick any mosque at random. They'll have a page "about Islam". Search for the term "terrorism" on the page and you'll see a statement condemning it. Never fails.

But you've got to pick it at random. If you go out of your way to find one of the very few extremist mosques, you'll of course get your views validated. But if you pick a mosque at random the chances of that one being an extremist one is infinitesimally small.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Not supporting ISIS is not the same as not supporting terrorism.

Most Muslims don't support terrorism either.

But if we look more narrowly. If you look at what Jihadi's say they see Islamic terrorism as nothing but retaliation for Western terrorism. You can all you want argue the case that western military interventions isn't terrorism. The fact remains that the western press systematically play down the suffering in the countries where we're "helping".

I should add that I supported the coalition invading both Afghanistan and Iraq. And I would support one going into Syria. So I'm not against that. I'm also not defending Islamic terrorism.

All I'm saying is that there is a context, and I acknowledge that the Jihadis have sort-of logical arguments for claiming they're acting in self defence. Their argument is that they want the west to feel the same pain they do. And that would somehow make us understand how immoral western intervention in the Middle-East. I don't share this view. And I think it's wrong, as well as dumb. But people of colour who regularly experience racism in the west often do get quite embittered about this. It's these people who might get attracted by Islamic extremism as well as think terrorism might get justified.