Europe submits voluntarily

[Hermit]

There's abundance evidence available that " muzzies" do not assimilate very well into Western democracies!

Yeah. Right. Just like the two million overwhelmingly Muslim guest workers from Turkey in Germany did not.

 

[TSwizzle]

1870s American bathing suit for women.

The bikini wasn't invented until the 1940s.

 

[TSwizzle]

What a sorry state of affairs in Londonistan;

A primary school that controversially banned pupils from wearing hijabs appears to have backed down after the chair of governors announced his resignation following complaints from parents. St Stephen’s primary school in Newham, east London, hit the headlines at the weekend after the Sunday Times reported it had banned Muslim girls under the age of eight from wearing headscarves, to the delight of campaigners who argued it enforces religious conformity on children.

TehGruaniad

In muslim majority countries women have the #notohijab, in Londonistan, government agencies (foreign office) hand out free hijabs. #freehijabs !

 

[barbos]

What a sorry state of affairs in Londonistan;

A primary school that controversially banned pupils from wearing hijabs appears to have backed down after the chair of governors announced his resignation following complaints from parents. St Stephen’s primary school in Newham, east London, hit the headlines at the weekend after the Sunday Times reported it had banned Muslim girls under the age of eight from wearing headscarves, to the delight of campaigners who argued it enforces religious conformity on children.

TehGruaniad

In muslim majority countries women have the #notohijab, in Londonistan, government agencies (foreign office) hand out free hijabs. #freehijabs !

They are doing it wrong. They should try reverse psychology. Make these things mandatory for muslim children, with harsh punishment for violating the rules.

 

[Derec]

In 50-100 years' time the "muzzies" will have assimilated culturally to the extent that they will be indistinguishable from the society they migrated to.

That happens when numbers are small. With mass, population replacement, levels of migration the migrants affect the society they migrate into. With levels of mass migrationm as they are muzzies will be majority in many parts of Western Europe in 50-100 years time.

 

[4321lynx]

In 50-100 years' time the "muzzies" will have assimilated culturally to the extent that they will be indistinguishable from the society they migrated to.

That happens when numbers are small. With mass, population replacement, levels of migration the migrants affect the society they migrate into. With levels of mass migrationm as they are muzzies will be majority in many parts of Europe in 50-100 years time.

Anybody looked at this? Lately or ever?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe

 

[Derec]

In 50-100 years' time the "muzzies" will have assimilated culturally to the extent that they will be indistinguishable from the society they migrated to.

That happens when numbers are small. With mass, population replacement, levels of migration the migrants affect the society they migrate into. With levels of mass migrationm as they are muzzies will be majority in many parts of Europe in 50-100 years time.

Anybody looked at this? Lately or ever?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe

Sorry, I meant to write "Western Europe". Some parts of Eastern Europe have already been islamicized by the Turks.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Immigrants, at the moment they arrive, tend to have TFRs similar to where they came from, but that difference quickly dissipates.

Define "quickly". My understanding is that it's a slow process and it takes a lifetime to match the TFR of the destination.

 

[Jokodo]

In 50-100 years' time the "muzzies" will have assimilated culturally to the extent that they will be indistinguishable from the society they migrated to.

That happens when numbers are small. With mass, population replacement, levels of migration the migrants affect the society they migrate into. With levels of mass migrationm as they are muzzies will be majority in many parts of Western Europe in 50-100 years time.

Are you channeling the  Know_Nothings of the 1840/1850s? They said pretty much every single thing you're saying about Muslims -- about Catholics!

Yep, every single thing. I herewith formally accuse the Islamophobia movement of plagiarism.

"<insert_minority> cannot be loyal to secular democracy" - yep, we heard that about Catholics.
"<big evil man> is orchestrating the mass migration with the purpose of changing the nature of the host country" - yep, that one too, though the Know Nothings' big evil man was the pope and not George Soros.
"<insert_minority> will vote for regressive policies and destroy our achievements" - yep, that one too.
"<insert_minority> is intrinsically incompatible with our way of life" - no exception.
"<insert_minority> will become a majority in many parts of the country in just 50 years", yep that one too.


They were, kind of, right about the last one: The descendants of Irish, German, Italian or Polish immigrants between them make up a majority in many places in New England and the Midwest. But none of their other predictions came true: Those areas are if anything more progressive than regions in Appalachia and the Far South that remained almost 100% Protestant.

 

[Jokodo]

Anybody looked at this? Lately or ever?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe

Sorry, I meant to write "Western Europe". Some parts of Eastern Europe have already been islamicized by the Turks.

Parts of Russia were islamicized be the Arabs and Persians before the Rus' adopted Christianity!

 

[Jokodo]

Immigrants, at the moment they arrive, tend to have TFRs similar to where they came from, but that difference quickly dissipates.

Define "quickly". My understanding is that it's a slow process and it takes a lifetime to match the TFR of the destination.

What do you mean by "a lifetime"?

It's certainly quickly enough to make any extrapolation over decades of minority numbers assuming a constant TFR equal to the current one of the country of origin utter bullshit. That be true even if migrants and their descendants TFRs stayed tightly linked to their countries' of origin, since even there TFRs are falling quickly.

For Austria, the TFR of of Turkish-born naturalised citizens seems to be around 1.8 -- we're still talking about the first generation of immigrants here. And while that may not seem much lower than Turkey's nationwide rate of 2.1, this comparison ignores that most Turkish immigrants come from poorer areas often in the East of the country - and fertility rates within Turkey vary enormously by province, between 1.52 in Edirne and over 4 in some places along the Syrian border, so it is much lower than the Turkey come from.

 

[bilby]

There's abundance evidence available that " muzzies" do not assimilate very well into Western democracies!

And yet you seem oddly incapable of presenting any. Every single testable claim you have made in this thread so far has been shown to be false; Most are (like the above) simply bald assertions, and as such valueless.

 

[Derec]

Parts of Russia were islamicized be the Arabs and Persians before the Rus' adopted Christianity!

Citation needed. Note that Persia itself wasn't fully islamicized until 10th century or so.

 

[Derec]

They said pretty much every single thing you're saying about Muslims -- about Catholics!

I you trying to say that the culture and society of the US wasn't significantly affected by this mass migration of Catholics? Now a lot of those changes are those that most of us approve of - such as greater acceptance of alcohol than among early US Protestants, but this actually strengthens my thesis: mass migrants significantly change their host societies. Note that certainly when it comes to alcohol Islam is on the opposite side.

Yep, every single thing. I herewith formally accuse the Islamophobia movement of plagiarism.

Just because I am against islamization and mass migration of Muslims does not mean I am "islamophobic".

"<big evil man> is orchestrating the mass migration with the purpose of changing the nature of the host country" - yep, that one too, though the Know Nothings' big evil man was the pope and not George Soros.

And they were right about that.

"<insert_minority> will vote for regressive policies and destroy our achievements" - yep, that one too.

Depends how you define "regressive" and "progressive" of course - many regressive Muslims like Linda Sarsour are considered "progressive". Go figure.

"<insert_minority> is intrinsically incompatible with our way of life" - no exception.

They were probably right about that - Catholic influx significantly changed the country. Note that modern US is on the other end of that change.

"<insert_minority> will become a majority in many parts of the country in just 50 years", yep that one too.

They were right about that too.

They were, kind of, right about the last one: The descendants of Irish, German, Italian or Polish immigrants between them make up a majority in many places in New England and the Midwest. But none of their other predictions came true: Those areas are if anything more progressive than regions in Appalachia and the Far South that remained almost 100% Protestant.

Progressive is a virtually meaningless term. Around the turn of the 20th century, so-called "progressives" allied with Protestants and against Catholics to ban alcohol.
Progressives are often quite regressive, which is why their newfound affinity for Islam is not that surprising.

And if you think that Catholic mass migrants did not change US to resemble their host countries more, then you are even more myopic than I thought. Note that these societies were European ones and thus not as fundamentally alien as fundamentalist Islamic societies like Afghanistan or Pakistan are. The same level of change in the direction of islamizaton (that you advocate for some reason) is not going to be as benign and certainly will not include such positive imports as German beer culture or Italian wine culture.

- - - Updated - - -

There's abundance evidence available that " muzzies" do not assimilate very well into Western democracies!

Yeah. Right. Just like the two million overwhelmingly Muslim guest workers from Turkey in Germany did not.

They did not. Before all those Turkish Gastarbeiter there were not many mosques in Germany. Now there are more than 3000.

 

[Jokodo]

Parts of Russia were islamicized be the Arabs and Persians before the Rus' adopted Christianity!

Citation needed. Note that Persia itself wasn't fully islamicized until 10th century or so.

  Arab–Khazar wars

"The 737 campaign marked the end of large-scale warfare between the two powers, establishing Derbent as the northernmost Muslim outpost"

Derbent is in  Dagestan.

"In 664, the Persians were succeeded in Derbent by the Arabs, who in the 8th century repeatedly clashed with the Khazars. Although the local population rose against the Arabs of Derbent in 905 and 913, Islam was eventually adopted in urban centers, such as Samandar and Kubachi (Zerechgeran), from where it steadily penetrated into the highlands"

 

[Jokodo]

I you trying to say that the culture and society of the US wasn't significantly affected by this mass migration of Catholics? Now a lot of those changes are those that most of us approve of - such as greater acceptance of alcohol than among early US Protestants, but this actually strengthens my thesis: mass migrants significantly change their host societies. Note that certainly when it comes to alcohol Islam is on the opposite side.

There's nothing specifically Protestant about the temperance movement in the United States. During the days of "early US Protestants" that movement didn't even exist - it was born from the zeitgeist of the mid-1800s. It's first major success, the  Maine Liquor Law, dates to the 1850s, when the Catholics where already immigrating en masse!

There was also  Catholic_temperance_movement.

And no, it doesn't prove your point at all when only the good things ("changes (...) most of us approve of") are kept while the bad things the Know Nothings feared blatantly failed to materialise.

Just because I am against islamization and mass migration of Muslims does not mean I am "islamophobic".

You're clearly acting paranoid, so yes, the term's apt.

"<big evil man> is orchestrating the mass migration with the purpose of changing the nature of the host country" - yep, that one too, though the Know Nothings' big evil man was the pope and not George Soros.

And they were right about that.

Are you fucking serious???

I think I need you to clarify this. Do you believe that the Irish immigrants of the late 1840s and early 1850s came to the USA not because of that irritating but ultimately harmless little famine they had back home, but specifically because the Pope had told them to go and usurp America and destroy its destroy its civil liberties?

Do you believe that the German immigrants of the late 1840s and early 1850s went to the US not because of a desolate economic and political situation, not because many of them were on the losing side of a failed revolt, but because the Pope hat told them to subjugate America and make it more like the country they were fleeing from for political reasons?

Seriously?

If so, no further comment. When you have to shed the last bit of common sense to square your conspiracy theory with reality, I'll leave it to the reader to decide what your conspiracy theory is worth.

 

[Derec]

Reality: If you exclude the European countries with longstanding Muslim minorities or even majorities (there's an easy way to do this: exclude all countries with Muslims >10% - as it happens no Western European country with Muslim minorities originating from 20th/21st century immigration exceeds that threshold), there's still no significant correlation. I checked it.

Since you don't think islamization is bad, I would not trust your "checking".
But even if you are right about TFR, the fact remains that Islamic percentage in Western Europe is steadily increasing. That means that islamization is inevitable unless Europe wakes up and quick.

Immigrants, at the moment they arrive, tend to have TFRs similar to where they came from, but that difference quickly dissipates.

Define quickly? You must mean "slowly", as in 2-3 generations. And in the meantime their numbers increase precipitously. Note also that Muslim mass migration is not a finite pulse. It's not something that happened in 2015 and is now over. No, mass migration of Muslims is ongoing and will continue as long as Europe doesn't close their borders to illegal migration by refusing to feed and house illegal migrants. Berlusconi has the right idea.

That TFR is "much more related to the local economy and culture than to religion" is exactly the point I'm trying to make, and which angelo and others are denying.

But religion is part of culture. Sure, in Africa TFRs are high for Muslims and Christians alike, but they are higher for Muslims. In Myanmar, the Rohingya Muslims have ridiculously high birth rates and girls start having children by 14 or even earlier. In fact, in almost every region Muslims have higher TFR than non-Muslims.

The only exception is Middle East and North Africa, but there are few non-Muslims there anyway.
So don't tell me TFRs do not depend on religion.

In fact, I'm willing to argue that economy is the only biggie of these two (another one is educational standards: many Eastern European countries, whether or not they have high numbers of Muslims, have low TFRs, and lower ones than expected from their GDP alone; they also have higher educational standards than expected from their GDP alone, and pretty much all countries where TFR doesn't follow the GDP correlation in the other direction have undeserved income).

Correlation does not mean causation. In fact, causation could go the other way or both could be caused by the same variable. E.g., Islamic cultural norms can be causing high both TFRs and a crappy economy.

If we did allow religion as a major factor, we'd come to the conclusion that if anything, it's judaism, not islam, that's most strongly connected with high TFRs.

According to CIA World Factbook, Israel has TFR of 2.64 (including Israeli Arabs), West Bank (presumably including settlers) 3.27 and Gaza Strip (which has no Israeli settlers and hardly any non-Muslims of any kind) 4.13. The most purely Muslim region also has significantly higher TFR.

Israel's data does not include Gaza,

Which is at 4.13.

and it does not include West Bank Arabs (who incidentally have a lower TFR than Israel).

How do you figure that?

West Bank settlers > (but almost equal) Gaza strip > Israel proper > West Bank Arabs.

Citation needed for this bold, and almost certainly bogus, ranking.

 

[Jokodo]

They were, kind of, right about the last one: The descendants of Irish, German, Italian or Polish immigrants between them make up a majority in many places in New England and the Midwest. But none of their other predictions came true: Those areas are if anything more progressive than regions in Appalachia and the Far South that remained almost 100% Protestant.

Progressive is a virtually meaningless term. Around the turn of the 20th century, so-called "progressives" allied with Protestants and against Catholics to ban alcohol.
Progressives are often quite regressive, which is why their newfound affinity for Islam is not that surprising.

I'm not talking about "progressive" in any kind of technical sense. I'm using the common English definition of the word. Meaning to support innovation, civil liberties, freedom of religion and freedom of choice. Exactly the things the Know Nothings argued Catholics would not and could not support. The Wikipedia page I linked contains a quote by one of the speakers of the Know Nothings describing Catholicism as "the ally of tyranny, the opponent of material prosperity, the foe of thrift, the enemy of the railroad, the caucus, and the school".

Are you going to deny that people in the regions of the US that received a larger influx of Catholics are
- more likely to support full separation of church and state
- more likely to support equal rights for children born out of wedlock
- more likely to support science
- less likely to be creationists
- more likely to approve of women pursuing a career
- more educated on average
- more prosperous on average
than people in the regions that didn't?

- - - Updated - - -

There's abundance evidence available that " muzzies" do not assimilate very well into Western democracies!

Yeah. Right. Just like the two million overwhelmingly Muslim guest workers from Turkey in Germany did not.

They did not. Before all those Turkish Gastarbeiter there were not many mosques in Germany. Now there are more than 3000.

An uninformative and irrelevant factoid.

 

[Jokodo]

Israel's data does not include Gaza,

Which is at 4.13.

and it does not include West Bank Arabs (who incidentally have a lower TFR than Israel).

How do you figure that?

West Bank settlers > (but almost equal) Gaza strip > Israel proper > West Bank Arabs.

Citation needed for this bold, and almost certainly bogus, ranking.

Start here: http://cbs.gov.il/shnaton63/st03_11x.pdf

This is an official Israeli government source. It cites a TFR for the "Judea and Samaria Area", which is the official Israeli terminology for the West Bank, as 4.99, with a footnote saying "Israeli localities only", which is again official terminology for settlements. It also cites 5.07 for the Jews of that area alone on page two, it appears the slightly lower 4.99 includes a small number of non-Jews in the settlements. Either is higher than your quoted figure for the Gaza strip, as you can confirm yourself, I believe.

Israel's official figure is 3.11, while the West Bank Arabs have a rate of 2.9 (the World Fact Book cites 3.27, but that figure includes the settlers: You can see that it all adds up very neatly by calculating 2.9 * 0.83 + 5.07 * 0.17, that is, calculating the weighted average of those two values).

Incidentally, there is one group with an even higher TFR than the West Bank settlers: Negev Bedouins (you'll find them in the linked government summary as "Southern District Muslims"). They're also the poorest demographic group in Israel by any measure, so my point of economy being the driver is confirmed.

 

[Bloodnf]

There's abundance evidence available that " muzzies" do not assimilate very well into Western democracies!

Why is this disgusting bigot allowed to post here? Would anyone be allowed to post "niggers, spics, kikes"? Why are slurs against Muslims acceptable?