Europe submits voluntarily

[angelo]

Anyone of us have ever met? Excise me, but I've met many, perhaps hundreds in my last life as a food wholesaler sales representative.
I was calling on Arab speaking retail store owners. Besides the fact that more than a few skipped town without paying their bills for my goods, mostly 5-10 kilo bags of all purpose flour, this period was during 9/11. And the Iraq war of the second Bush era. For the 9/11 atrocity, all blame was on a Jewish conspiracy. To a tee each and every Arab speaking store owner was anti American and it's allies, or the coalition of the willing. Somewhat understandable considering the circumstances. Therefore all thought Sadam Hussain was a hero, and defender of Islam.
So, don't preach to me about not meeting any moderate or otherwise followers of the perhaps bloodiest terrorist in history Muhammad!

We were talking about repoman's meme and Muslims "obsessing over minority rights". None of your anecdotes is remotely relevant to the question of minority rights.

(Also this reeks of heavy confirmation bias. How many of those costumers did you even have extended political discussions with, a handful maybe? But you conclude without batting an eye that "[t]o a tee each and every Arab speaking store owner" out of perhaps hundreds shared the same views? How rational is that?)

How would you know we didn't have long discussions with them all. I was and am very politically aware then as I am now. They opened up to me because I agreed with them that that war/invasion for the reasons given was wrong. The same as the reason to take out Gadafi was wrong as it proved to be. All followers of the terrorist Mohammed are weak brained therefore need a strongman as their dictator to keep them under foot. Witness Turkey and the popularity of Erdogan who is slowly but surely turning his country to a nuclear-powered shithole.
Besides, minorities of Muslims don't remain minorities for long. They usually take over whole enclaves of suburbia in many parts of western cities when these parasites head to get welfare!

 

[Jokodo]

Anyone of us have ever met? Excise me, but I've met many, perhaps hundreds in my last life as a food wholesaler sales representative.
I was calling on Arab speaking retail store owners. Besides the fact that more than a few skipped town without paying their bills for my goods, mostly 5-10 kilo bags of all purpose flour, this period was during 9/11. And the Iraq war of the second Bush era. For the 9/11 atrocity, all blame was on a Jewish conspiracy. To a tee each and every Arab speaking store owner was anti American and it's allies, or the coalition of the willing. Somewhat understandable considering the circumstances. Therefore all thought Sadam Hussain was a hero, and defender of Islam.
So, don't preach to me about not meeting any moderate or otherwise followers of the perhaps bloodiest terrorist in history Muhammad!

We were talking about repoman's meme and Muslims "obsessing over minority rights". None of your anecdotes is remotely relevant to the question of minority rights.

(Also this reeks of heavy confirmation bias. How many of those costumers did you even have extended political discussions with, a handful maybe? But you conclude without batting an eye that "[t]o a tee each and every Arab speaking store owner" out of perhaps hundreds shared the same views? How rational is that?)

How would you know we didn't have long discussions with them all. I was and am very politically aware then as I am now. <snip>

I call bullshit on those alleged "long discussions" with anywhere near each and every costumer.

It's also irrelevant to the question at hand, which was an alleged obsession Muslims have with minority rights. None of what you said testifies to that.

The second part of repoman's meme is also not correct. The founding president of Senegal - a country with over 90% Muslims - who is highly reverred almost universally up to this day, was Christian. In the West Bank, the mayor and vice-mayor of Bethlehem are required to be Christian by municipal law - even though the city has had a Muslim majority for decades; in the 1996 elections even the Samaritan minority, numbering only a few hundred, had one guaranteed seat in the Palestinian Legislative Council out of 88 total seats.

Even in fucking Iran, which is explicitly an islamist autocracy, religious minorities have guaranteed representation in parliament, with 2 reserved seats for the Armenians, one for Assyrian/Chaldean Christians (3 total Christian), one for Jews and one for Zoroastrians. At less than 0.2% Christians and less than 0.02% Jews, and 290 total parliament seats, that means Christians in Iran's parliament are overrepresented by a factor of at least 5, and Jews by over 30. Sure, the minority representatives can't freely speak their mind without risking trouble, but the same holds for Muslim legislators, so this isn't so much an issue of lacking minority rights as an issue of lacking rights for everyone.
In Iran, Christians are even to some extent exempt from the ban on alcohol, being allowed to produce and trade wine among themselves at least for use in the eucharist (sources are unclear on whether purely recreational alcohol use among Christians is tolerated). In that one aspect, Iran's stronger on minority rights than any Western nation I know of - I for one haven't heard of a law against narcotics anywhere in the West that explicitly exempts Rastafarians' ceremonial use from the ban against marijuana.

Before you misconstrue what I said (though you probably will anyway): I'm not saying Iran is a great place. I'm saying that even Iran, which is in many ways a shit place even for a Muslim majority country, has fairly strong minority protections in place, in some respects stronger ones than your or my country. Because Iran isn't a great place, this shows just how wrong that meme really is.

 

[4321lynx]

How would you know we didn't have long discussions with them all. I was and am very politically aware then as I am now. <snip>

I call bullshit on those alleged "long discussions" with anywhere near each and every costumer.

It's also irrelevant to the question at hand, which was an alleged obsession Muslims have with minority rights. None of what you said testifies to that.

The second part of repoman's meme is also not correct. The founding president of Senegal - a country with over 90% Muslims - who is highly reverred almost universally up to this day, was Christian. In the West Bank, the mayor and vice-mayor of Bethlehem are required to be Christian by municipal law - even though the city has had a Muslim majority for decades; in the 1996 elections even the Samaritan minority, numbering only a few hundred, had one guaranteed seat in the Palestinian Legislative Council out of 88 total seats.

Even in fucking Iran, which is explicitly an islamist autocracy, religious minorities have guaranteed representation in parliament, with 2 reserved seats for the Armenians, one for Assyrian/Chaldean Christians (3 total Christian), one for Jews and one for Zoroastrians. At less than 0.2% Christians and less than 0.02% Jews, and 290 total parliament seats, that means Christians in Iran's parliament are overrepresented by a factor of at least 5, and Jews by over 30. Sure, the minority representatives can't freely speak their mind without risking trouble, but the same holds for Muslim legislators, so this isn't so much an issue of lacking minority rights as an issue of lacking rights for everyone.
In Iran, Christians are even to some extent exempt from the ban on alcohol, being allowed to produce and trade wine among themselves at least for use in the eucharist (sources are unclear on whether purely recreational alcohol use among Christians is tolerated). In that one aspect, Iran's stronger on minority rights than any Western nation I know of - I for one haven't heard of a law against narcotics anywhere in the West that explicitly exempts Rastafarians' ceremonial use from the ban against marijuana.

Before you misconstrue what I said (though you probably will anyway): I'm not saying Iran is a great place. I'm saying that even Iran, which is in many ways a shit place even for a Muslim majority country, has fairly strong minority protections in place, in some respects stronger ones than your or my country. Because Iran isn't a great place, this shows just how wrong that meme really is.

Yes, yes, yes. I think you actually believe all that you are saying, but remember that it was argued by communists that the Soviet Union had the most democratic Constitution in the world, Jeeeesussss, they even had 16 Republics for their various minorities. That did not help the millions of Ukrainian peasants, men women and children, labelled kulaks who died of hunger in the Hlodomor , nor the millions of victims of the Purges, nor those in the Gulags before and after the Purges. And all the while there were inane, insane, Western intellectual bastards like HGWells, GBShaw and hundreds of others actually visiting the Soviets and coming back with these sort of nonsensical statements and praises for the system. And there are even now apologists for that nightmare "It never happened" they say. Same sort of thing for the nightmare of Nazi Germany. Your pro Muslim spins are, I realise, prompted by angelo's almost pathological obsession with the dangers of Islam and of Muslim immigration to the West, and the climate of anti-Muslim feelings in the world. Bear in mind that his is special pleading, and behind it lies the knowledge that there were fewer than 50,000 Jews in Palestine at the end of the 19th century, and there are Ssome 7 million of them there now, and most are denying that Palestine ever existed in modern history. And Israel, aided by the USA is busy grabbing Palestinian land in the Occupied territories including parts of Jerusalem. And it was all done by immigration.....
Europe is a little bigger than Palestine, and will not disappear under a wave , a tsunami, of Muslims, the way it happened to the Muslims in Palestine, but for Zeus and JUpiter's sake stop singing the praises of that dictatorial religion and its mercurial and self-righteous followers, both the active ones and the lapsed ones. No one is rushing to immigrate to any Muslim country, there probably are many good reasons why not.

 

[Jokodo]

How would you know we didn't have long discussions with them all. I was and am very politically aware then as I am now. <snip>

I call bullshit on those alleged "long discussions" with anywhere near each and every costumer.

It's also irrelevant to the question at hand, which was an alleged obsession Muslims have with minority rights. None of what you said testifies to that.

The second part of repoman's meme is also not correct. The founding president of Senegal - a country with over 90% Muslims - who is highly reverred almost universally up to this day, was Christian. In the West Bank, the mayor and vice-mayor of Bethlehem are required to be Christian by municipal law - even though the city has had a Muslim majority for decades; in the 1996 elections even the Samaritan minority, numbering only a few hundred, had one guaranteed seat in the Palestinian Legislative Council out of 88 total seats.

Even in fucking Iran, which is explicitly an islamist autocracy, religious minorities have guaranteed representation in parliament, with 2 reserved seats for the Armenians, one for Assyrian/Chaldean Christians (3 total Christian), one for Jews and one for Zoroastrians. At less than 0.2% Christians and less than 0.02% Jews, and 290 total parliament seats, that means Christians in Iran's parliament are overrepresented by a factor of at least 5, and Jews by over 30. Sure, the minority representatives can't freely speak their mind without risking trouble, but the same holds for Muslim legislators, so this isn't so much an issue of lacking minority rights as an issue of lacking rights for everyone.
In Iran, Christians are even to some extent exempt from the ban on alcohol, being allowed to produce and trade wine among themselves at least for use in the eucharist (sources are unclear on whether purely recreational alcohol use among Christians is tolerated). In that one aspect, Iran's stronger on minority rights than any Western nation I know of - I for one haven't heard of a law against narcotics anywhere in the West that explicitly exempts Rastafarians' ceremonial use from the ban against marijuana.

Before you misconstrue what I said (though you probably will anyway): I'm not saying Iran is a great place. I'm saying that even Iran, which is in many ways a shit place even for a Muslim majority country, has fairly strong minority protections in place, in some respects stronger ones than your or my country. Because Iran isn't a great place, this shows just how wrong that meme really is.

Yes, yes, yes. I think you actually believe all that you are saying,

I actually researched every single bit of information in my last post prior to writing. it

Your pro Muslim spins are, (...) stop singing the praises of that dictatorial religion and its mercurial and self-righteous followers, both the active ones and the lapsed ones.

What a waste of your time writing such a long post perfectly missing my point. I'm not singing anyone's praise, and my only spin is pro-reality, not pro-Muslim. This part of the discussion is inresponse to repoman's post #6948 and the meme therein, which claims explicitly that "In every country with a Muslim majority, there are NO minority rights." This claim can be false without prejudging whether all, or most Muslim majority countries are oppressive undemocratic regimes, without prejudging whether Islam is a "dictatorial religion", etc.

As it happens it is false, rather plainly so.

No one is rushing to immigrate to any Muslim country, there probably are many good reasons why not.

This claim also happens to be false: Out of the top 20 independent nations of the world ranked according to percentage of foreign born residents, 9 have a Muslim majority: The UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, Brunei, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Oman. Some of those immigrants are non-Muslims fleeing from persecution elsewhere in the Muslim world (e. g. Assyrian Christians from Iraq in Jordan, or Bahai'i from Iran in Qatar or Bahrain). In absolute terms, 8 of the 20 countries with the highest immigrant population are again Muslim majority countries: Saudi Arabia, UAE, Pakistan, Kazakhstan, Jordan, Turkey, Kuwait, Iran.

 

[4321lynx]

No one is rushing to immigrate to any Muslim country, there probably are many good reasons why not.

This claim also happens to be false: Out of the top 20 independent nations of the world ranked according to percentage of foreign born residents, 9 have a Muslim majority: The UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, Brunei, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Oman. Some of those immigrants are non-Muslims fleeing from persecution elsewhere in the Muslim world (e. g. Assyrian Christians from Iraq in Jordan, or Bahai'i from Iran in Qatar or Bahrain). In absolute terms, 8 of the 20 countries with the highest immigrant population are again Muslim majority countries: Saudi Arabia, UAE, Pakistan, Kazakhstan, Jordan, Turkey, Kuwait, Iran.

Since you are so good at statistics tell me what percentage of foreign residents in Muslim coutries are immigrants who want to stay there , what percentage are what the Germans call "guest workers" there for economic reasons and forced to return to their own countries and what percentage are refugees?

The Islamophobia that exists is caused by racist reaction to a handful of immigrants who take advantage of Western democracy to criticise it in no quiet manner, and some to act against the democratic system. It is emotional, not logical, it is irrational; emotions speak louder than statistics in life, you can see it all over the world, and quoting statistics will not persuade "the People" to act rationally.

 

[Jokodo]

No one is rushing to immigrate to any Muslim country, there probably are many good reasons why not.

This claim also happens to be false: Out of the top 20 independent nations of the world ranked according to percentage of foreign born residents, 9 have a Muslim majority: The UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, Brunei, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Oman. Some of those immigrants are non-Muslims fleeing from persecution elsewhere in the Muslim world (e. g. Assyrian Christians from Iraq in Jordan, or Bahai'i from Iran in Qatar or Bahrain). In absolute terms, 8 of the 20 countries with the highest immigrant population are again Muslim majority countries: Saudi Arabia, UAE, Pakistan, Kazakhstan, Jordan, Turkey, Kuwait, Iran.

Since you are so good at statistics tell me what percentage of foreign residents in Muslim coutries are immigrants who want to stay there , what percentage are what the Germans call "guest workers" there for economic reasons and forced to return to their own countries and what percentage are refugees?

None of that matters to whether or not your claim - that "[n]o one is rushing to immigrate to any Muslim country" - is false. Instead of wasting all of our time with irrelevancies, can you just admit that you made a false claim because it seemed plausible at the time and you forgot to check your facts?

 

[angelo]

Who the f.....k in their right mind would migrate to a muslim majority country?

 

[4321lynx]

Who the f.....k in their right mind would migrate to a muslim majority country?

You forget, like I did, that there are Muslim shitholes with different depths of shit in them. If one is drowning in shit, shitholes that are less deep in it may look attractive and may save one's life.
In meantime tell me, when is Israel going to stop stealing Palestinian territory. The Palestinians want a shithole of their own and they are entitled to have one unsupervised by any "Chosen People".

 

[LordKiran]

Who the f.....k in their right mind would migrate to a muslim majority country?

Lots of people actually. Where do you think all the foreign workers in Saudi Arabia come from? Berber slavers?

 

[4321lynx]

Since you are so good at statistics tell me what percentage of foreign residents in Muslim coutries are immigrants who want to stay there , what percentage are what the Germans call "guest workers" there for economic reasons and forced to return to their own countries and what percentage are refugees?

None of that matters to whether or not your claim - that "[n]o one is rushing to immigrate to any Muslim country" - is false. Instead of wasting all of our time with irrelevancies, can you just admit that you made a false claim because it seemed plausible at the time and you forgot to check your facts?

Yes, yes, point to Jokodo, the Islam friendly guard of "truth and reality." (Sounds like some Eastern European political party don't it? Truth and Reality) I did not think it through. Don't like the word false applied to my erroneous deed, it was unintentional. See my post above to angelo. for explanation.

Now answer my question about the statistics of Muslim country to Muslim country people's migration.

 

[Jokodo]

Since you are so good at statistics tell me what percentage of foreign residents in Muslim coutries are immigrants who want to stay there , what percentage are what the Germans call "guest workers" there for economic reasons and forced to return to their own countries and what percentage are refugees?

None of that matters to whether or not your claim - that "[n]o one is rushing to immigrate to any Muslim country" - is false. Instead of wasting all of our time with irrelevancies, can you just admit that you made a false claim because it seemed plausible at the time and you forgot to check your facts?

Yes, yes, point to Jokodo, the Islam friendly guard of "truth and reality." (Sounds like some Eastern European political party don't it? Truth and Reality) I did not think it through. Don't like the word false applied to my erroneous deed, it was unintentional. See my post above to angelo. for explanation.

I assumed it was unintentional, and I never claimed or implied you were lying, so please calm down a bit.
The claim is still false though.

Now answer my question about the statistics of Muslim country to Muslim country people's migration.

I don't have those statistics. If you think you're relevant, you can try to find some yourself. That would be opening a new question, and I don't feel like doing your work for you.

 

[4321lynx]

Yes, yes, point to Jokodo, the Islam friendly guard of "truth and reality." (Sounds like some Eastern European political party don't it? Truth and Reality) I did not think it through. Don't like the word false applied to my erroneous deed, it was unintentional. See my post above to angelo. for explanation.

I assumed it was unintentional, and I never claimed or implied you were lying, so please calm down a bit.
The claim is still false though.

Now answer my question about the statistics of Muslim country to Muslim country people's migration.

I don't have those statistics. If you think you're relevant, you can try to find some yourself. That would be opening a new question, and I don't feel like doing your work for you.

Not my work. You said they were immigrants, it all depends on your definition of immigrant. I disagree with your implied definition that migrant workers should be called immigrants. You quote impressive statistics when these favour your theses, but balk at something that might not favour you.

 

[Jokodo]

I assumed it was unintentional, and I never claimed or implied you were lying, so please calm down a bit.
The claim is still false though.



I don't have those statistics. If you think you're relevant, you can try to find some yourself. That would be opening a new question, and I don't feel like doing your work for you.

Not my work. You said they were immigrants, it all depends on your definition of immigrant. I disagree with your implied definition that migrant workers should be called immigrants. You quote impressive statistic when these favour your theses, but balk at something that might not favour you.

I hate to repeat myself, but I don't have those statistics. No need to insinuate that I'm being dishonest.
If you have them, feel free to share.

 

[Jokodo]

Now answer my question about the statistics of Muslim country to Muslim country people's migration.

Incidentally, it's not just "Muslim country to Muslim country". E. g. in Bahrain, 14.5% of the residents are estimated* to be Christians, and 9% Hindus. Either figure is higher than the percentage of Muslims in any single Western European country. The figures for other Gulf states are similar.

*Official census figures only differentiate between "Muslims" and "other", but they're consistent with those estimates.

 

[angelo]

Who the f.....k in their right mind would migrate to a muslim majority country?

You forget, like I did, that there are Muslim shitholes with different depths of shit in them. If one is drowning in shit, shitholes that are less deep in it may look attractive and may save one's life.
In meantime tell me, when is Israel going to stop stealing Palestinian territory. The Palestinians want a shithole of their own and they are entitled to have one unsupervised by any "Chosen People".

The " Palestinians" could've had their own shithole decades ago. They've knocked back every single offer of their own shithole made by the Israelis since even before the Clinton administration's Camp David Accord. Yassar Arafat walked away from an offer made to him that exceeded 98% of his demands!

 

[angelo]

Who the f.....k in their right mind would migrate to a muslim majority country?

Lots of people actually. Where do you think all the foreign workers in Saudi Arabia come from? Berber slavers?

They're foreign workers, thousands of Filipino house servants, not one Filipino or others would voluntary migrate to such a retrograde shithole like Saudi Arabia or any other Middle Eastern country except perhaps the only fully functioning sole democracy in the region Israel where even the Arabs have far more rights and freedoms than they have in any other Arab shithole.

 

[angelo]

This is what's to come to Europe in the not too distant future.

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2018/03/...-warns-facebook-and-twitter-about-hate-speech

 

[repoman]

 

[Jokodo]

This is what's to come to Europe in the not too distant future.

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2018/03/...-warns-facebook-and-twitter-about-hate-speech

I have no idea whether it is among your goals to be taken seriously.

If it is, though, you may want to find more balanced sources.

 

[Jokodo]

Who the f.....k in their right mind would migrate to a muslim majority country?

You forget, like I did, that there are Muslim shitholes with different depths of shit in them. If one is drowning in shit, shitholes that are less deep in it may look attractive and may save one's life.
In meantime tell me, when is Israel going to stop stealing Palestinian territory. The Palestinians want a shithole of their own and they are entitled to have one unsupervised by any "Chosen People".

The " Palestinians" <snip>

The quotation marks here tell us all we ever needed to know.