Mexico is quite a mess. I wouldn't go there these days.
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- Thread starter TSwizzle
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Mexico is quite a mess. I wouldn't go there these days.
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Thanks for this useless bit of information.
Do try to keep up with the conversation better next time.
angelo
Deleted
All Western Countries mentioned such as Belgium, UK and France have elevated terrorism levels because of their high muslim migrant intake. The western suburbs of Sydney and Melbourne right here in Australia are almost " no go areas" as well!
Jokodo
Veteran Member
Does it qualify as being "in turmoil"?
Does the US? -- half of the countries you used to contradict bilby's statement have homicide rates quite a bit lower than you guys.
angelo
Deleted
Have any of you defenders of " the religion of peace " ever read what they refer to as the source of living and submission to allah, Quran and Hadiths?
Yes I'm aware of the violence and misogyny in the old testament, but that has been superseded by the " turn the other cheek " new testament. The followers of Muhammad have no such thing.
Yes I'm aware of the violence and misogyny in the old testament, but that has been superseded by the " turn the other cheek " new testament. The followers of Muhammad have no such thing.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
A big problem with comparing relative homicide rates is that the number of violent deaths dropped off significantly at the end of the 19'th century, kept dropping throughout last century, in spite of the two world wars, and then the drop off got even steeper at the end of the last century reaching almost nothing. We have never lived in a safer age than now. It's hard to say exactly why the world is so safe. But this degree of safety is weird. It's a statistical anomaly. We started treating this as normal pretty fucking fast. So we get hysterical at odd murders. Calm the fuck down. How about enjoying the peace instead?
No go zones in the West... bah. So dumb. I remember the 70'ies. No go zones in big cities was normal. It's not today. Hardly anywhere in the West. I don't know of a single one. I keep hearing it. But the evidence is pretty light.
No go zones in the West... bah. So dumb. I remember the 70'ies. No go zones in big cities was normal. It's not today. Hardly anywhere in the West. I don't know of a single one. I keep hearing it. But the evidence is pretty light.
Wouldn't know anything about "turn the other cheek" based on the Christians here in America.
Jews don't have a NT either.
One has to wonder if Islam is this big monolithic thing with Muslims all operating from the same interpretation of the same rule book, why do ISIS and the Taliban have to do what they do in order to get the populations of their little shitholes to go along with them?
DrZoidberg
Contributor
It's a mistake to think the Taleban, Al Qaeda and ISIS have popular support. They're classic fascist organisations. They are totalitarian and use their secret police to terrorise people into submission.
Fascism is very seductive. We still have Nazis in the West. Trump won. But its only seductive at a distance. And only by a minority.
Violent ideologies are very effective at grabbing power. Less effective at keeping it. Worth noting is that Al Qaeda/the Taleban are at war with ISIS. They think ISIS are extremist loons. Which cracks me up. People only motivated by hate have trouble getting along
TSwizzle
I am unburdened by what has been.
Jokodo
Veteran Member
Just to recapitulate the conversation leading to this post:
You, Loren Pechtel by name, insisted that it was impossible to name "an Islamic country that is not in turmoil", and that Islam was "the common factor in just about every trouble spot in the world".
bilby responded with a list of nine Islamic countries he assesses as not being in turmoil.
You (Loren Pechtel)rejected four of those on the basis that there exist state department travel advisories for those countries. So either you believe that a state department travel advisory proves a country is in turmoil, or you don't know what you're talking about anymore. I'm giving you the benefit of doubt by assuming it's the first. (Letting alone for the moment the fact that this still leaves at least 5 Muslim countries not in turmoil.)
I (Jokodo) replied with Worldbank data on crime (homicide) rates, showing that two of those four countries are safer than the US. To any rational person, this leaves only three logically possible conclusions:
1) Your assessment that "state department travel advisory == country is in turmoil" is way off (which would nullify your point about every Muslim country being in turmoil, whatever value it still had(not a lot)).
2) The US is in turmoil too (which would nullify the point about Islam being the common factor).
3) World bank data are way off (yeah, that could save your argument; is it by any chance the lizardmen that forged them?).
Which one are you going with?
angelo
Deleted
Would the relatively prosperity that Western Civilasation has brought into the modern era have anything to do with the general crime rate throughout the world dropping to record levels? Islamic Terrorism on the other hand has seen a steady rise in death and destruction in the last few decades. The month of " bombathon" alone has seen hundreds of deaths throughout the world, but especially in the Islamic world. The Iranian backed Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists are as dangerous as ever to world peace. Only our lord Zoroaster knows what will happen once Iran has nuclear capabilities.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
No, it hasn't. The crime and murder rates are still dropping. While ISIS has some spectacular attacks in their name, overall it's still an improvement. In the big picture terrorist attacks are still so rare as to be nothing we need to worry about. Your chances of being killed in a terrorist attack is still near zero. You are being hysterical.
Hammas and Hezbollah are only a threat to world peace if it makes the West over-react and vote for morons like Trump. Them by themselves are irrelevant.
Again, history lesson. When you have political instability you have extremism. It's not Islam that's the driver behind this. The West used to be worse than the current Middle-East. It took centuries to transition from religious monarchies to secular democracies. It was extremely violent and politically volatile. Islam was not a factor.
Trouble spots have a way of spreading. In today's interconnected world, war in Syria means it's everybody's problem. There's nothing to stop it unless the war ends.
untermensche
Contributor
Fear of Muslims is perhaps reasonable.
If some foreign entity came to the US bombed the place to the stone age then replaced the government and left a powerful group like ISIS to roam freely the US refugees that arose in this chaos created by the foreign entity would have some severely traumatized individuals.
How do you deal with traumatized refugees in 2018 fleeing the 15 years of chaos created by a US terrorist attack in 2003?
Why isn't the US the nation dealing with ALL of them?
The US has put a huge burden on Europe with it's terrorist activity.
And Europeans understand this.
If some foreign entity came to the US bombed the place to the stone age then replaced the government and left a powerful group like ISIS to roam freely the US refugees that arose in this chaos created by the foreign entity would have some severely traumatized individuals.
How do you deal with traumatized refugees in 2018 fleeing the 15 years of chaos created by a US terrorist attack in 2003?
Why isn't the US the nation dealing with ALL of them?
The US has put a huge burden on Europe with it's terrorist activity.
And Europeans understand this.
Hamas and Hezbollah do not manage to kill very many because the IDF stops them. They would be a very serious threat if they weren't being opposed.
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You are still incapable of understanding cause and effect.
The problems with Islamists long predate our interference.
untermensche
Contributor
The refugee problem of Iraqi's moving into Europe is caused by the US terrorist attack of the Iraqi people and the empowerment of ISIS.
The problem of Islamic fundamentalism has been mainly caused by the US/British overthrow of the Iranian government and the US/British support of the Saudi dictatorship.
And of course there was the US/British terrorist attack of the Iraqi people.
Oil and the sick violence carried out by the US and Britain to control it.
That is the root of problems in the ME.
angelo
Deleted
Apparently you have some knowledge that's denied to us mere mortals. I and am sure almost everyone else thought the West backing Shah of Iran was deposed by Islamists.
untermensche
Contributor
For some of us history begins before the Shah.
The US and Britain overturned a secular democracy and installed the Shah, a dictator, which led to the Islamic Revolution in Iran.
This is a major reason for the level of Islamic fundamentalism in the region.
Along with the dictatorship in Saudi Arabia.
Supported by you guessed it, the US and Britain.
SimpleDon
Veteran Member
Fear has an important place and I didn't say that I hadn't been afraid. I foolishly worked under a car that was being held up by only by the jack. It started to fall off and the shot of adrenaline that the realization of what was happening is what got me out of danger.
I also know how realizing that people were trying to kill me to sharpen my concentration on the job of trying to kill them. But that fear made it more likely that they would succeed before I did. Fear is irrational because it interferes with rational thought. I am a pilot and I know that fear has no place in the cockpit, it lessens any chance of recovery and results in avoidable accidents, controlled flight into terrain, VFR into IMC, etc.
But I don't see how it is rational to be afraid of an entire group of people because a few of them commit crimes. Extending this logic to all identifiable groups in society would leave you afraid of everyone.
I believe that you are afraid of these people. I just don't understand why.
The Germans, like most developed countries, need immigration to provide workers for their industries to keep their economy growing. It has been this way since the end of the Second World War. Why would they follow your advice and be afraid of these people because you are afraid of them?
That crime in Germany has decreased since the "mass migration" is a fact. Would the Germans consider your fear to be rational when compared against their actual experience?
But you can't explain why you are afraid of these people, other than that some small percentage of them commit crimes and that their ancient holy book encourages terrorism.
But their ancient holy book encourages peace too. This is the way that religion works, it is successful at predicting because it predicts everything, all possibilities.
Only a small percentage of these people are worthy of any rational fear. A much smaller percentage of the migrant population is dangerous than the percentage of native-born gun owning white males in the US.
Are you also afraid of gun owning white males in the US? I am not.
Possibly the biggest problem with fear in society is that it is used to divide people against each other. It divides people into groups against one another, groups that otherwise would be natural allies. In a democratic country, the poor and the middle class vastly outnumber the rich. The rich use fear to divide the poor and the middle class against one another along racial and religious lines and they pit natives against immigrants. This is done by the simplest thing to do, by lying. Explain to me how you know that you are not a victim of this manipulation. That you have escaped these lies and instead your fears are based on facts.
angelo
Deleted
During the Shah's reign Iran was a Westernized, almost democratic state. Then Ayatollah Khomeini came along and within weeks the nation had almost gone back to the seventh century, and would have done so if not for the Western innovation and discoveries which had spread from Europe in the last 300 odd years of modern democratic civilisation.
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